dissociative disorder vs. unintegrated self states

Hi (I also posted this in clyde's corner)

I am wondering what the difference would be between a dissociative disorder and unintegrated self states.

My T has mentioned the latter. He says I was left unintegrated by childhood neglect and trauma. But when I read other stuff it feels as though I have a dissociative disorder. I don't think I have DID but I do dissociate frequently and often in the transference with T. I have become more and more aware of my inner child and feel she is more than one age or there is more than one of her. I do plan on discussing this with him but thought you might be able to shed a little light on this?

I know there are different schools of psychology....maybe this is just a difference in the ways the phenomena is described?

Might trigger, talk of a*u*e.

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I am wondering what the difference would be between a dissociative disorder and
unintegrated self states

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Hi Miss Charlotte,

Just my thoughts, by the way. I could be way off. Everyone's experience is different, no wrong or right.

With that said, I'm not so sure there is a difference between the two and if there is, it's probably where it falls on the dissociation spectrum. Could be considered DDNOS. (dissociative disorder not otherwise specified)
The last paragraph is interesting!

The combination of PTSD-DDNOS is the most frequent diagnosis in survivors of childhood abuse. These survivors experience the flashbacks and intrusion of trauma memories, sometimes not until years after the childhood abuse, with dissociative experiences of distancing, "trancing out", feeling unreal, the ability to ignore pain, and feeling as if they were looking at the world through a fog. (Ross, 1989)

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According to Ego States Theory, we all start out life as a collection of unintegrated ego states, such as "Happy baby", "Hungry baby", "Scared baby", "Mad baby", and "Sleepy baby". We observe normal infants making abrupt switches between these ego states according to their current circumstances, and there seems to be little continuity of memory from one such ego state to the next.

We observe normal parents sponsoring integration of ego states in normal youngsters. The preschooler who falls and hurts himself while playing undergoes a switch from the "Happy child" ego state to the "Scared and painful" ego state, and seems to have no idea that his suffering is a temporary condition.

Mother provides reassurance along the following lines: "You're OK now, even though it hurts; you were happy a few moments ago, and you'll be happy again in another few minutes!"

We can later observe the same child in grade school getting hurt, starting to switch ego states, and then reassuring himself that he'll feel better soon, thereby maintaining his own ego integration. In adulthood, the fabric of ego integration is usually so tightly woven that it takes a catastrophe to cause dissociation of ego states.

Some children, however, don't have a "normal" childhood with the support of well-integrated parents. Suppose father is alcoholic: he may come home drunk and rape the little girl, and the next day he may not remember what he did. Mother may be physically or psychologically absent from what's going on with her daughter, so father is her only source of comfort. The child may be unable to get help for a variety of reasons, including her fear of father, fear of losing her father, and a sense that what's happening is inevitable. She faces an endless series of irreconcilable realities.

Her best defense may be to maintain two distinct ego systems, one of which deals as best she can with father the rapist, the other with everyday living. The defense of dissociation permits the child to avoid thinking about the abuse so she can have as normal a life as possible.

When this sort of childhood starts early and goes on a long time, the ego states may accumulate very different memories, emotions, and behaviors. They may even have different names for themselves: one name representing the angry, hurt, sexually aware part, and the other designating the innocent child in her public persona.

A child growing up in a very sick family system faces a large number of insoluble problems, and dissociation may become the preferred way to deal with virtually every conflict the child faces. Thus, a system of dissociated ego states may arise, one of which does well in school, another is very athletic, a third feels a great deal of rage, a fourth can function sexually, and the fifth goes to church and prays a lot - thus fully expressing all the family values in one person without having to resolve any of the conflicts that divide the family.

John M Rathbun M.D.

Hi MissCharlotte, I don't know what unintegrated self states are--are you sure it is not dissociative to some extent?

I have a number of different ego states, including several versions of myself as a girl, at different ages. I have one about 4, one about 6, and one that is a teen. I also have a young adult male protector ego state. The thinking is that I created all of these as a response to childhood trauma. However, I don't have DID. I do not "lose time" and get taken over by different alters, which is one of the diagnostic criteria for DID. Does this sound similar to what you are experiencing? My therapist explained that everyone has different ego states, so that made me feel that what I experience is OK. But some ego states are more distinct and less integrated due to the trauma. I am learning to help my little girl ego states heal and also learning how to work together with the male (instead of at odds). I hope you can talk more about what you are experiencing with your therapist.

We don't usually double post, and I suspect you will receive a good answer with links from Clyde, however, you will receive replies here that you might not get there. So as not to interfere with Clyde's forum, I will post here.

The definition for DID or DDNos are pretty clear. If your T is thinking you have "unintegrated self states" it may just mean that he suspects DID but hasn't actually spoken to or been notified of an actual "alter" or personality. It might also be that he just doesn't accept the DSM's definitions or even DID at all. You have to discuss this with him to see.

It won't matter what he calls it, as you will still be you, no matter the label. He just needs a label to warrant continued therapy for the insurance company and legal records (as a professional, only.)

Good wishes!

http://www.google.com/search?q=unintegrated+self+states&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a

"I know there are different schools of psychology....maybe this is just a difference in the ways the phenomena is described? "

This is my experience in my research - many ways to describe, but all boiling down to the same thing.
(in other words, no idea!)

To the contrary. There are many clinicians who firmly believe in the ability of the brain/mind to separate out different aspects from the other aspects of a person. It isn't "no idea" regarding that it does occur, to these. HOW the brain does it is not even no idea, but we sure don't know exactly how.

There are many doctors who prefer to write it off as a phenomena of the mind, and desire of the patient to not "own" the memories so they produce these "others." And, there are some who downright say it doesn't happen and the patient is pretending.

Now, here really isn't the place for a long discussion, other than to encourage you that no matter what the label, you are still you.

I would think unintegrated self states is where you have a baby that doesn't get their "act" together:

http://www.psychomedia.it/pm/modther...r/liotti-2.htm

whereas dissociative is where a child's act is taken apart.

Hi Miss Charlotte
Orange Blossom had some really good information and it really makes a lot of sense to me. There are so many dots on the dissociative spectrum and anyone can be anywhere along it. I think if it does not meet the criteria for DID, it could very well be DDNOS.

I also wondered if maybe your T just has another name for things? Maybe T can explain how he feels about it all.

At any rate, it's just a label and we are all so much more than labels. As long as you are getting good care from T in order to get the healing you desire, that's what matters. It's all hard for sure.

I wish for much healing for you Miss Charlotte. You are worth it.

Wow,

Thanks everyone for your responses.

I am not so worried as I am curious. I am me--integrated or not. I THINK but am not sure that self states is similar to ego states. It probably comes out of the school of self psychology of which Kohut was the guiding intellect. Here's a link:

http://www.psychologyoftheself.com/

Orange Blossom, whoa that article could describe me and my childhood--different details, same effect Thanks for the info.

Sunrise--I DO think it's dissociative. I dissociate a lot and in fact, have lost years of my childhood. I actually don't remember any of my teachers from 2nd to 6th grades. I recently went back to my old school and got my report card for those years (yeah, they had the records, amazing huh?) I looked at the report with the teachers' names and I still don't remember them.

I plan on dicussing this with T this week and will report back. sigh.

You know what? I am finally not ashamed that I sleep with a teddy bear. My inner child needs this bear to soothe. She never had one of her own.

sigh.

I always get "lost" in a discussion like this - and the thread did turned into a discussion...

I can only speak for me... a DIDer.... diagnosised several times...

My childhood was very traumatic.. early... 2 1/2... and on - confirmed by my father later in life.. and I say this because.. of all the "hype" on recovered memories.. and am senistive to that..

I lose time... used to lose time a great deal... run into people that I didn't know... managed my work life with stick-its.. came into conversations in the "middle" of stuff..
Found that I had to learn.. what I call "damage control" to my life because "I".. had done something... without knowing about it - purchased a new car... mortgage on my home.. yelled at someone..

From the time I was in 4th grade - I knew.. I had "insides" - how did I know.. I don't know..
Issues arose.. where sometimes.. I could not read... and then.. could read - advanced to 6th grade independent reading..

lost time... as far back as I can remember..

had.. I don't know how many different managers - different companies.. say "you appear outgoing, fun loving one day" and the "next you are extremely serious".... and people do not know what to expect from you...so... in other words.. be one.. or the other.. but be consistent - which I couldn't..

So... what I did learn... is I am ME.... integrated.. unintegrated... I am the same ME.... as I am with or without the label...

and the label.. isn't important - you are important.. and do.. whatever feels healing to you... and ignore the "rest" of the "stuff"... because in the end.. you are what is important....

Few singletons are really consistent on a regular basis, btw. Everyone cycles through their moods and such. I think what makes it tougher, and different is that if you have DID, you might not remember how you reacted or felt. Singletons do have that continuity. (It's that continuity that you are working in therapy to find, whether you fully integrate or not. )

love the word continuity... Yes.... continuity... it is what I am working on in therapy... it would be so so nice..

thanks.. for putting the "word" to the feeling of what I want...

sorry, you misunderstood me - i meant I personally had no idea. not the perfessionals.

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_Sky said:
To the contrary. There are many clinicians who firmly believe in the ability of the brain/mind to separate out different aspects from the other aspects of a person. It isn't "no idea" regarding that it does occur, to these. HOW the brain does it is not even no idea, but we sure don't know exactly how.

There are many doctors who prefer to write it off as a phenomena of the mind, and desire of the patient to not "own" the memories so they produce these "others." And, there are some who downright say it doesn't happen and the patient is pretending.

Now, here really isn't the place for a long discussion, other than to encourage you that no matter what the label, you are still you.

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yeah, i tried to ask my t if she agreed with the labels given to me by other ts. she said "I do not believe people are labels, but processes." and that was the end of that.

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wanttoheal said:
Hi Miss Charlotte
Orange Blossom had some really good information and it really makes a lot of sense to me. There are so many dots on the dissociative spectrum and anyone can be anywhere along it. I think if it does not meet the criteria for DID, it could very well be DDNOS.

I also wondered if maybe your T just has another name for things? Maybe T can explain how he feels about it all.

At any rate, it's just a label and we are all so much more than labels. As long as you are getting good care from T in order to get the healing you desire, that's what matters. It's all hard for sure.

I wish for much healing for you Miss Charlotte. You are worth it.


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"You know what? I am finally not ashamed that I sleep with a teddy bear. My inner child needs this bear to soothe. She never had one of her own."

=( that is sad that she never had one. I am glad you have one now - and glad you are not ashamed! Lord knows I have more than my fair share of them and other stuffes! All piled on the bed =)

Thanks everyone.

I don't think I will apply any labels after all. For some reason I was beginning to panic...that may be a result of a growing awareness of self--a knowing of how "split" I have been.

Yes, Kiya, I love my teddy so much. I'm jealous of your collection. I might have to start one.

Peace

=) stuffies collections are wonderful! And well worth it, i think. On the bed are 2 small ponies, one large horse, a polar bear, a care bear, my old rabbit from when i was 7, a cat, and a lavender scented moon.
then in owlet's corner, there's a huge seal, a small manatee, Eyore, another cat, a big stuffed My Little Pony, and her old bear from when she was 2 (we can't decide if we like ot or not because the story of who gave it to us keeps changing between my hated grandmother and my beloved grandmother). Oh there is also a Frog Prince in there because my dearest friend who died played the Frog Prince in his last Operetta. Heh, now there's a REAL cat on the bed - The only thing bigger than him is that Large Seal.

Owlet and the kids feel safer when a. there's a lot of stuffies around, and b. when the bed is so full that there is just room for this body in it.

Many wishes to you and your possible stuffie collection!

Oh wow Kiya, I do the same thing! So many things on my bed so that there's only enough room for the body. It's the only way I feel safe enough to sleep!

I have an Elmo and a Teddy Bear I sleep with. The Teddy Bear goes with me to counseling.

Everyone should have at least one.

ya, the pony gose with us to the t.
owlet