[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by haunted_by_my_past

I think you are all correct in this case. I do think she is purposely doing things to upset me just enough, but also being nice at the same time so it will look like she's trying.

It is a crystal clear case of passive aggression.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by haunted_by_my_past

For clarity sake - he has nothing against me, nor does her Mom, but he will protect her and would pay for the best lawyer around just to make sure she was protected properly)

...

after my visit to an attorney yesterday, which she does NOT know about, I do feel a little more empowered and feel very good about my chances to get what I want out of it.

Well, it is all understandable, that they would pay for the best lawyer to protect their daughter and not out of ill will towards you, but it does mean that you too need a good lawyer. So clearly you are more than justified in feeling empowered after seeing your lawyer.

And since divorce is no fault, do not get entangled in thinking of who has tried enough, not enough, too much, etc.

[AAAAA]

Again I can only speak from my own experience. In my own case, I was not being passive aggressive, but I was struggling. It's very difficult to end a long serious relationship. It's painful. No matter how much I resented my husband, no matter how angry, hurt, frustrated and annoyed I was with him; I still loved him. I was not in love with him at the time. But we had four children together and I made a commitment to him that I fully intended to keep when I made it.

Part of it was guilt. Why couldn't I make this work? Part of it was a balancing act. He was happy in the marriage (to this day I don't know how he could have been) and did not want to end it. I knew it would hurt him. I truly did not want to cause him any more pain, but at some point I knew that I too deserved happiness and I was not going to be happy with him. And a part of me was so angry with him. He could see (I thought) how miserable I was and yet his desire to remain married to me was more important that my happiness. He claimed to love me, but that alone convinced me that he did not. If he truly loved me (I thought) he would understand how very difficult this all was and not make it even more difficult. By forcing me to flat out say the words, over and over again made me despise him even more.

In my case until he actually let go of me, I could not let go of the anger and frustration. As I sit here now, I do not know how we were able to overcome those obstacles. It took a lot of hard work, but our love is stronger than ever.

[haunted_by_my_past]

This I don't understand though: "He could see (I thought) how miserable I was and yet his desire to remain married to me was more important that my happiness. He claimed to love me, but that alone convinced me that he did not. If he truly loved me (I thought) he would understand how very difficult this all was and not make it even more difficult."

What could he have done, in this circumstance, that would have been acceptable to you?

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

It is a crystal clear case of passive aggression.

Hammy I can't agree with everything you said but a lot of it I do. I also believe it's passive aggressive to do such things as to deliberately not wear a wedding ring when she has been told directly that it is hurtful to Haunted, attempting (in a rather weak fashion albeit) to distance him from her family when she knows from their years together he is fond of them...probably other things as well, if Haunted thought back on it, all clearly to avoid any kind of conflict yet still wounding. It's more that she's angry, I believe, than hurt, and probably stems from her original hurt, but I have to say, since she has gotten so much reasurrance from so many others of her position being somewhat, if not totally, irrational at this late date..I do believe there is something far deeper motivating her. Something she may not even realize, or have consciously admitted.

In any case, Haunted did the right thing by seeking out an attorney. He might also want to revisit therapy for himself, so he can learn to adapt to any possible new circumstance he may soon find himself. And the making her jealous thing....bad idea. Trust is trust. If he wants to make her jealous on the off chance it might bring her back to the marriage then he has to do it AFTER he's LEGALLY separated or better yet, divorced. Otherwise, passive aggressive or not, in her eyes he will just be a hypcocrite and a cheat. And that, I guarentee, she WON'T get over.

Good luck Haunted...I know my passive aggressives...they are very hard to lose, and even harder to walk away from.

[AAAAA]

What I wanted him to do, what I needed him to do is say, you know I see how unhappy you are and this isn't working. What should we do? And accept my answer gracefully. I knew that he loved me, but I was miserable. Our marriage wasn't working. I needed it to be over. Once he did agree to separate I had to room to breathe and grown. When I decided to give our marriage another chance I did so 100% because I knew that I was making an informed decision.

I felt duped. Perhaps you wife does as well. We don't ever really know someone until you live with them for a long period time. It takes a minute for the warts to show. I was angry because I may have still married him had I known his issues, but he hid them from me (maybe he really didn't know about them to begin with).

I needed him to love me enough to let me go. And he did. I had given up. He loved me enough to put my quest for happiness above his desire to be married to me. He loved me enough to make our separation as easy as possible for me (once he finally did accept it) and the children. During our separation he remained a very hands on father.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by haunted_by_my_past

One recurring theme that I have picked up in recent conversations with my wife - and I believe this statement is what has become the end result of her feelings on the cross-dressing - is that she no longer has "passion" for me, and she doesn't think she could ever get that back again.

. . .just wondering if I've been dwelling too much on the cross-dressing part of this - when it's the return of feelings that I need to be working on?

You cannot get someone else's passion back for them.

It sounds to me as if she has her own sexuality somewhat confused; I know "clothes make the man" but. . . I cannot imagine, if my husband were to start enjoying putting on panty hose, a bra, slip, and dress, that I would have trouble with still knowing and feeling he was a "man"/my man. Now, since you have never done this where she has seen/been involved, or at all recently, I don't see anything you can do to work on this "problem" as part of your coupling?

[Nicks_Nose]

It is very possible, haunted, that other causes are part of the problem, such as basic life stresses and physical or biological issues that result in lower sex drive.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by Nicks_Nose

It is very possible, haunted, that other causes are part of the problem, such as basic life stresses

Read the OP in detail! Haunted... cooks and does most of the chores. His wife is spoiled and has very few basic life stressors compared to many other women her age.

[mojo321]

I can't help but think that people choose their spouses and fall in love based on as much information as possible. But emotions run faster than information when you are getting to know someone. So people also choose their spouses and fall in love based on a CRAZY amount of "holes" in their information. We all take a gamble when we fall in love, that the holes in the information won't be deal breakers when the information trickles in after the LOVE happens.

In a way, you exploited this truth about how love develops.

Your cross dressing was a hole in the information.

This of course hit her like a ton of bricks, ....., feeling betrayed that I never told her....

Clearly, this WOULD have been a deal breaker had you told her when you were dating. But you hid it because you kinda KNEW it would be a deal breaker. And you were falling in love with her! So fast forward 15 years and then you think the bond is cemented enough to confess? That doesn't seem fair. So for 5 years she then tries to get past it, because she did, after all, fall in love with you and have kids with you and everything was "perfect" (within reason, of course).

But for her, this was a deal breaker. She probably still loves you, and will always love you. But she isn't "IN love with you". Just like she said. I totally get it.

She says she forgave me a long time ago about the betrayal for not telling her

I can see that. Like I said, love forms even with a ton of holes in the information. She didn't tell you 100% everything about her before you fell in love and got married. She knew that some things about her you would learn about over time. But before the marriage, I'll bet she didn't have any deal breakers poking at her mind. Did you keep this deal breaker a secret on purpose, even to the moment of your wedding day?

Cross dressing is a VERY difficult issue to understand from the outside. At it's core, it is when a man enjoys wearing women's clothes. What does that mean on a sexual level? What does that mean on an emotional level? What does that mean on a fidelity level? Add the "secrecy" aspect to it, and what does it mean on a trust level? This is a huge paradigm shift in how she used to think that you think.

Occasionally she would ask me if I was having "urges" and I always tried to be as honest as I could that "yes, sometimes I still think about it, but I'm not doing it". She has never seen me dressed, I have never tried to get her to accept that part of me, never tried to justify it, never tried to make it part of our lives. To me, it was a non-issue.

Over the course of those 5 years, these were your opportunities to tell her that you don't think like that anymore. You were honest, which is good and fair to her! But the answer reinforced her view of how you think, which is the deal breaker. This was the litmus test.

You can't manufacture desire. If you desire one thing, and she desires a man that doesn't doesn't desire what you desire, it ain't gonna happen!

Either you change at your very core, or she changes at her very core, or you separate. Which is the most fair? Which is the most POSSIBLE?

I'm sorry if it hurts. And this is just my opinion. You have every right to disregard it!

[AAAAA]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

Read the OP in detail! Haunted... cooks and does most of the chores. His wife is spoiled and has very few basic life stressors compared to many other women her age.

Perhaps it's my mood, perhaps it's my own personal experience, perhaps it's my own sense of guilt lingering, perhaps I am misunderstanding you or maybe I'm projecting. But that is a very silly statement.

It seems to me that haunted is having a difficult time assessing his wife's stressors and he's been married to her for 15 years, how can you make a blanket statement like that? Just because it looks perfect from the outside, doesn't mean there isn't something that is eating away at her day after day. Or that her feelings are not valid.

Most people look at my life and say I have the perfect husband. And he is in many ways. I've come to the conclusion there isn't another man on the planet that would be better suited for me. He spoils me rotten. He does most of the cooking, at least half of the cleaning and waits on me hand and foot. The desires of the children and I come before his own needs. He is intelligent and successful. He is devoted to us. However, it does not come without struggle! Without the tools to deal with these issues, they can and have destroyed our relationship.

I have to be very careful about what I say. A comment said without thinking on a commercial will have that product showing up in our house. If I get frustrated because my phone is on the blink, I'll come home and find a new phone. He will make these purchases in an effort to make me happy, even though he knows that material things mean nothing to me. In the meantime I have to worry. Did he go out and spend $800 on a new phone I do not need and put off paying the property taxes? I have to demand receipts to make sure the bills are paid. He will fight tooth and nail to spend money on underwear for himself, but my daughter mentions a coach bag and it appears. On the rare occasion that he buys something frivolous for himself, everyone else has to get something that we do not need or want. He wanted to buy himself a new car. He works hard, we can afford it, go for it. But a week before his car was delivered I came home and had a new van sitting in my driveway. All because I mentioned (without thinking!) that our previous vehicle had more luggage space. He did it out of love, I know he did but every time I get into that van I see money that is not going into our savings account to build a cushion for his next financial disaster.

I know that these issues stem from his childhood. I try to be patient and understanding. BUT I still have to worry and fret every single day. It wears you down to guard every comment that comes out of your mouth. It's stressful every month to go over the bills. Did he really lose that receipt or is it not paid? It's embarrassing to call the bank and make sure that he made a transfer. We make a very comfortable living but he makes stupid financial decisions that end up costing us 4 times what they should have.

[haunted_by_my_past]

Mojo, AAAAA, ... I think you have both nailed it. Over the course of conversations over the past few days, it's become more apparent how she has really felt about me over the past 5 years... even despite the way she was treated, pampered, etc. While I have my own anger issues over the fact that this was hidden from ME for so long ... and that I wish she would have done more to try to resolve the conflict in her mind, we are both going to have to move forward now with each other fulfilling different roles.

At this point, there is nothing left to work for, she has made that very clear in a way that I cannot possibly confuse the words. I've pretty much accepted my fate weeks ago but as the custody discussions, and living arrangement discussions are all starting, I am dreading the process. We're waiting for a few things to settle, get some ducks in a row, start making arrangements, etc. before we break the news to our children. But I suspect that won't be too much longer.

Wish me luck guys, pray for my children. I thank all of you who have tried to help me, who have supported me (and helped me realize that the world can be tolerant of crossdressers), and provided great insight.

[AAAAA]

Haunted I wish you luck and pray for the happiness of you and your family, wherever that road leads you. I'm sorry that you've got to go through this struggle right now, but you will come out on the other side wiser.

[mojo321]

Yeah, good luck to you! And your family!

[Nicks_Nose]

Everybody deserves some balance and stability in life. I hope you can find this to help the healing come quickly and the self confidence and happiness returns in your life. You are a good person and a good parent.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by AAAAA

It seems to me that haunted is having a difficult time assessing his wife's stressors and he's been married to her for 15 years, how can you make a blanket statement like that? Just because it looks perfect from the outside, doesn't mean there isn't something that is eating away at her day after day. Or that her feelings are not valid.

I was talking about objective life stressors - such as having insufficient money, facing the threat of being evicted, not sleeping enough hours because of work obligations, etc. She does not have those, and, is spoiled. I was not talking about her feelings - she might be having all sorts of feelings, but she is still enjoying the luxury of experiencing all of those feelings whilst somebody else cooks for her, which makes her spoiled, objectively. She is definitely entitled to her feelings, and it is possible the something is EATING AWAY at her day after day, but, in the meantime, her children are EATING what Haunted... cooks. So she lives in luxury, still, and is therefore spoiled, objectively.

Plus, her daddy will get her the most expensive lawyer. So she is all covered.

[mojo321]

hamster-bamster wrote:

"Well, it is all understandable, that they would pay for the best lawyer to protect their daughter and not out of ill will towards you, but it does mean that you too need a good lawyer.

Yeah, OK.

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

Plus, her daddy will get her the most expensive lawyer. So she is all covered.

Woah! what happened here Ham-Bam?

Your ability to empathize with the guy is commendable. But there is no need to let that grow like a weed into resentment for the wife.

She did, after all, give it another 5 years to no avail. Her tendency to be complacent in the day to day chores is just an outward sign of depression over the relationship she is in. No amount of dishes or laundry that he does makes him "deserve him to be desired."

Set her free, and check your resentment at the door.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by mojo321

Yeah, OK.



Woah! what happened here Ham-Bam?

Your ability to empathize with the guy is commendable. But there is no need to let that grow like a weed into resentment for the wife.

She did, after all, give it another 5 years to no avail. Her tendency to be complacent in the day to day chores is just an outward sign of depression over the relationship she is in. No amount of dishes or laundry that he does makes him "deserve him to be desired."

Set her free, and check your resentment at the door.

What you wrote is very interesting. So she is not using Haunted...'s housekeeping services, nor is she benefiting them from, but rather is simply being "complacent in the day to day chores". I see... so then perhaps Haunted... needs to apologize to her for all the cooking that, apparently, only led to the wife's feeling ever more depressed about the relationship. I see - she was not using the housekeeping services, but rather barely tolerating the fact that such services were provided. I think that then the future support amount that she would get needs to be tripled, in recognition of all the pain she went through enduring those housekeeping services for 5 long years. And, Haunted... also needs to pay for therapy for the ex wife (indefinitely, if needed) so that she can unload in peace and quiet.

This is all I can come up with immediately, but I will think of more good things Haunted... can do to compensate the ex wife for all the terrible hardships she has gone through in the last five years.

I wonder why you decided that I meant that the wife had to desire Haunted... based on his doing the laundry. I did not say that. Desire is not willable anyway. I was writing about the fact that the wife is spoiled in that she is not participating in the marriage on an equitable footing. I do not have any issues with her not desiring Haunted... - it is her life. I do have an issue with her being the benefactor of an unjust living arrangement which works in her favor unilaterally. Say, had she done half of the chores while still not desiring Haunted... I would not have said anything.

[mojo321]

Well, I guess we are again coming from different paradigms. I do enjoy your viewpoints though!

[eskielover]

We can't judge what has gone on & what is going on in the marriage....with every wronged marriage there are 2 sides......she may looked spoiled because he does so much for her......people could have said the same about my marriage....but the reason I quit doing anything was because of the attitude my H had taken on & it was my only way of fighting back. There is no way for us to tell completely all that has gone on or even maybe some little actions that have caused the marriage to be the way it looks from the outside.

My H took care of our daughter while I was finishing my degree & we both ended up aerospace firmware design engineers.....why....because when I ended up pregnant after we got married & I had stated before I got married that I was NOT going to give up my degree of put it on hold for anything....the first thing he said when I ended up pregnant was that I could take a couple of years off of college to take care of the baby. Every view he had in the marriage was 180 from what I had made clear that wasn't acceptable to me or I wasn't interested in getting married....& he agreed before we got married.....they after....it was a whole other way he was trying to force me into doing......our marriage started off feeling like I had to fight for everything that I valued in my life & he was trying to take everything away. All the things that no one outside of the marriage ever saw....but made the marriage what it was......a Husband who was the one caring for our child.

Not seeing the whole picture of your marriage haunted, it's difficult to really say what's going on with her.....I know for me, it wasn't until I left my H after 33 years of living under the same roof that I realized just how bad the marriage was & remembered back to the beginning & realized that the problems really started before we got married.....but in the reality of the marriage....no one was able to put their fingers on it....sort of like not being able to see the forest for the trees.

It was amazing to me all that came back to me when I was able to get away from the issues & the anger that had built up over all those years & even with all the therapy I had after loosing my career which I hadn't realized was my escape from the bad marriage....no one understood my suicide attempts, not even myself & how it was a side effect more of being trapped in the bad marriage with no way out.....than it was my loss of my career.

Haunted, your wife may not even really know what all is bothering her...& who knows, it might have started even before those 5 years ago & at this point, she's not even aware f it. Life & the mind aren't always as clear as we would like it to be.

I have to say personally take a bit of a different view on your cross dressing however I'm still proud of you for going to the priest & confessing it.....& whether others believe it of not, I do believe that was the right thing to do in relation to God's forgiveness....while at the same time, we as humans need to hold the same forgiveness to let those things go......maybe asking for forgiveness for having not said been open & honest might have also been a part of your wife's issues....I know that my stbxh would always say nothing & think that it wasn't lying by saying nothing.....but lying & saying nothing when you know that it's something that needs to be open & honest about which is EVERYTHING in a marriage.......it might be more about the lack of openness & honesty & lack of willingness to communicate the truth at the beginning that has become the underlying unstable foundation in your marriage....which she can see was something that was there even before your marriage when you said nothing then for fear it might cause a problem......the problem with that thinking is that if it was going to be a problem then it might as well be known at the beginning so the marriage isn't based on information withheld.....I know for me that would really be the big thing in a marriage & has turned out to be a serious thing because I found out that my stbxh was constantly hiding information. Not only that but my stbxh could never admit that he didn't know something. He would always give you an answer no matter how wrong it really was because in his own mind he believed he was right. He would get away with it with others because no one ever wanted to really confront him on it bit after living around that for 33 years....there comes a point where there can no longer be tolerance.

The last 13 years of those 33 years were lived under the same roof, but in different areas of the house because financially there was no way to get out of a house that wasn't worth as much as we had paid for it & his financial irresponsibility had landed a huge amount of liens on the house. No outside of us knew all this was going on.....but through it all he looked like the nice guy.

I felt like I was fighting just to protect myself....outside, it looked like I was just being a horrible wife who was treating her H horrible.....it was almost impossible to put all the pieces together while I was still living in that environment....it wasn't until I left & over the past 6 years that I have been able to put the pieces together & realize the reality of what was actually going on in that marriage.

Sometimes we don't even know or are able to see what's happening while we are existing in the middle of it which is why separating & really getting away, not just existing under the same roof.....is the best possible idea.

Absense doesn't always make the heart grow fonder if the heart wasn't feeling anything in the first place from the beginning....but if there are or really have been feelings, then it's good to get the distance & be able to put the proper perspective on the emotions which is done easier from a distance.

I wish you the best with what you are going through....I know it's a struggle, but the big picture will help make the whole situation more clear