[Jannaku]

Hi people. For those of you that don't know I have been married to an abusive narcissist for the last 25 years. We have two children 19 and 14 which are both still fully dependent. I also have my aged mum living with us. Our relationship is not good. I have been on an emotional roller coaster for many years but it really has come to a head since my awakening about what he is and the conscious acknowledgement that he is verbally and emotionally abusive. As a result of his narcissistic personality disorder he has completely eroded my self confidence/esteem and filled me with fear, confusion, shame, etc. Although I know that our relationship is a pathetic union and I really want out I find that there is a paralyzing fear and angst which holds me back. My world as I know it is fully embedded and dependent on his, which is how and why he has managed to keep me in this relationship for so long. He is the foundation of my life. I have a lot of work to do to in my healing journey to build my self back up again but I feel that there is a limit to how much I can heal as long as I am with him and subjected to his psychological control and abuse.

When thinking about separating and divorce I try to weigh up everything and I want to act intelligently and rationally. I realize that the major hesitancy I have in leaving is due to our finances. I know this might sound cold, mercenary and calculating but it is something I consider since the welfare of my children and my mum is very important to me. Due to his financial irresponsibility as a result of being a narcissistic show off and also due to the GFC we are heavily in debt. I know this may shock some of you but the sum total of what he (and me by way of being his partner) owes is around $2.5million!!!! He earns really good money (around $800,000 pa) but our outgoings are enormous as well and our cash flow is bad. We have been under enormous financial stress since the GFC when he lost over $2mil on the share market. This was the equity that we had which backed the borrowings. We are holding our head above water financially, but the last 4 years has seen us treading water and sometimes having to go under. This financial stress has also caused an increase in his narcissistic nastiness since it goes against all a narc stands for. Remember they are never wrong, superior in all respects, live to show off, etc. My mum also sold her house to help us out and now she also has nothing and is dependent on us. This only adds to the complexity of the situation.

My life at the moment from a material/provider perspective is good. Nice home, food, good schooling and university for the kids, mum is well looked after, etc despite the debt. He also has a life insurance of $3m as a safety net which, in the event that he dies, will pay off all our debts and leave me with enough money to survive comfortably. Spiritually and psychologically however it is bad as there is no love and continual abuse and I am struggling.

Herein lies my dilemma. If we separate he has already told me that he will support me and the kids to a bare minimum but that all debts will be split 50/50 and he will give up his life insurance. Since there is no property to squabble over I would be forced to rent and will have no assets at all. My earning capacity is minimal compared to his and besides there is no guarantee that I could find work since I have not worked for 15 years. Additionally, he claims that if we separate he will cut down how much he works thereby reducing his income because he will only be responsible for half of the debt and he intends using his money to live life to the fullest and enjoy his life. In short, my life post separation/divorce would be crap and very, very difficult. There is no way I could repay the loans/debt in my lifetime and if he should die or fall sick or whatever then all support would cease leaving me to fend for myself and face bankruptcy.

Many of my friends advise me to think carefully about separating and to not act foolishly and consider the ramifications and it's effects on the children and my mum. They suggest that I stay and not cut my nose off to spite my face. This is exactly the mind torturing predicament I am in. Do I forsake my happiness and mental well being for the good of the family or do I put myself first and then deal with the fallout?? Opinions sought please.

[hamster-bamster]

Please tell us about what will happen in terms of college. I do not know the system in Australia - do you pay for college, how much, are their scholarships and financial aid, grants from the schools and/or from the government, etc.

Since the kids are 19 and 14, and since the only issue is money (no, you do not come across as mercenary - you come across as sane and realistic), that part seems to the most important part in terms of planning for the next 10 years.

Also, his plan to live his life to the fullest is undoubtedly great (for him), but would the courts in Australia allow him to do that? Some courts in America, if you start earning less than you did and you owe support, will tell you "OK too bad, we will impute wages to you and calculate support obligation based on IMPUTED rather than ACTUAL".

[Jannaku]

Schooling for my 14 year old is private and costs a lot of money with no assistance from the government. He could go to a government school but this is not the preferred choice. He is struggling now thanks to the narc father he has and is in therapy for this. The last thing he needs is to be uprooted not only from his home but from his school as well. My H claims he will pay for the kids education in any case, however, this is only effective if he is working. Should he die or fall ill then there would be nothing. My 19 year old is in University and is accruing what we call a HECS debt which means there is no money upfront but it will be garnished proportionately from her income when she graduates and works. I am not too sure about IMPUTED wages but it is certainly something I haven't heard about. My biggest concern is getting lumbered with half of the massive debt which would kill me (and kids and mum) and another huge consideration is my mum who is 83 years old and has nothing other than what we provide. Security is paramount to her and even a tweak of insecurity fills her with fear.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by Jannaku

My H claims he will pay for the kids education in any case, however, this is only effective if he is working. Should he die or fall ill then there would be nothing.

Do you think that he will be more likely to die or fall ill if you divorce him, or less likely?

In general, I think that it seems that you, for your own sake, should not file for a divorce, because objectively, it sounds like you really do need the current arrangement and the security that comes with it. Also, since you write so clearly and to the point, it appears that you are mentally "with it" and OK - you do not sound like a person whose self-esteem has been eroded. Even though you wrote that "As a result of his narcissistic personality disorder he has completely eroded my self confidence/esteem and filled me with fear, confusion, shame, etc.", it does not sound that it is the case. I will not get into detail, but just comment on your mention of "confusion" (in bold) - you do not sound confused. Quite on the contrary, you sound totally OK. Maybe your realization of the effect the narcissism has had on you has already allowed you to negate that effect. Possible?

You do write about the negative effect of narcissism on one of the children who now needs therapy for it. But, even in the event of a divorce, the child will continue to interact with the narcissist father and be damaged by such interactions and need therapy to counteract the damage. So that does not seem to be a factor in your decision-making, unless it can be proven that less contact with the narcissistic father will dramatically improve the chances for your child - dramatically enough to outweigh the damage that being uprooted from current private schooling can cause.

[Jannaku]

Thanks for your sensible, objective comments. You are fundamentally saying what my close friends have said. When I say confused I mean it in a broader context e.g. will I go, will I stay. I am very reactive to the narcs behavior. Some days I am so down and despairing, other days not too bad. He instills confusion in me as well thanks to his sophisticated gaslighting tactics which make me question my own sanity. Other than that I am mentally well and strong with the exception of some anxiety, phobias, etc. My self esteem waxes and wanes as well, again very much in response to current situations. Naturally the N has the ability to make me hate myself and my life and his continual put downs definitely cast doubts in my own mind about my own perceptions, intelligence and abilities. I have developed some very sophisticated subconscious psychological defense mechanisms over the years which have protected me from the narcissistic abuse. Emotional detachment being one, cognitive dissonance, etc. I am also in therapy trying to overcome some of these problems and trying to find my true self. I often wonder how much I can heal if I remain in the situation or if I would deteriorate when out of the situation due to all the other stresses? Hence - confused yet again. Answering your first question about do I think he would be more likely to die or fall ill if we divorce. Answer is yes probably as a result of the increased stress in his life - don't forget he would be losing his main narc supply. I often wonder as well whether my "with it", rational approach is just another way of covering up my fear and justifying why I remain in the relationship. Anyway thanks for the reply x

[hamster-bamster]

The last post was so thoroughly... looking for a fitting adjective here... well, "amazingly insightful"... that I am leaning towards recommending that you at least postpone the divorce for now.

Because - see you are saying that he is more likely to die if you divorce him now, so it makes sense to postpone.

Also... your mum will eventually die. I am sorry to say that and I am sorry if it hurts you, but humans are mortal.

Since one of the things that anchors you to this guy is your mum's situation, if and when she dies, you will reconsider the divorce/no divorce options THEN.

Just reminding you of the harsh reality of humans' mortality.

On being gaslighted - I salute you for that level of awareness. I was gaslighted for years, by my second husband when he was my husband, and then by him for a few more years when he was my ex husband (his choice) but still continued to control and gaslight me. And, my friends told me that he was gaslighting me (actually urging me to watch that movie), but I did not believe them.

Ultimately, I did realize that he was gaslighting me, and regained my confidence, sense of humor, logical mind, sanity, and all the rest of that. But I was not living with him at that point.

To the extent that you are being gaslighted and have enough insight to realize that you are being gaslighted, you are a super human.

[healingme4me]

It does seem, like the status quo, may be the solution, for now. You mention that your H, has informed you of just how the Debt would be distributed, were you to divorce. Was that talk, something you'd mentioned to him, or was that in a moment of N, where he vocalized, if you leave me, you will get half the debt moment.

I am not sure about the laws where you are. In the States, who owes what debts can be contested.

[Jannaku]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

The last post was so thoroughly... looking for a fitting adjective here... well, "amazingly insightful"... that I am leaning towards recommending that you at least postpone the divorce for now.

Because - see you are saying that he is more likely to die if you divorce him now, so it makes sense to postpone.

Also... your mum will eventually die. I am sorry to say that and I am sorry if it hurts you, but humans are mortal.

Since one of the things that anchors you to this guy is your mum's situation, if and when she dies, you will reconsider the divorce/no divorce options THEN.

Just reminding you of the harsh reality of humans' mortality.

On being gaslighted - I salute you for that level of awareness. I was gaslighted for years, by my second husband when he was my husband, and then by him for a few more years when he was my ex husband (his choice) but still continued to control and gaslight me. And, my friends told me that he was gaslighting me (actually urging me to watch that movie), but I did not believe them.

Ultimately, I did realize that he was gaslighting me, and regained my confidence, sense of humor, logical mind, sanity, and all the rest of that. But I was not living with him at that point.

To the extent that you are being gaslighted and have enough insight to realize that you are being gaslighted, you are a super human.

Your advice is really sound and sensible and you are absolutely right about my mother's mortality. I know that is on the cards and when that happens it will change the playing field completely. One of my biggest considerations is her well being and I don't believe it would be fair of me to disrupt these last years of her life. I know she would find the experience very traumatic. That said, I think you have answered my question for me - stay put for now and re-evaluate later. In fact another 5 years would make a world of difference with the kids as well since they would be 20 and 24 by then. With regard to my awareness about gaslighting and every other narcissistic technique - that has come from reading and acquiring knowledge and relating to everything 100%. I am also writing a book about my story as a form of therapy. That process has provided me with the ability to not only consolidate my experiences and process them in a logical manner but to also view everything from a very objective perspective. Thanks again x

[hamster-bamster]

Great. I am glad that healingme4me and I were helpful in getting you to make the decision that is best in the short term.

i will PM you my email address so that you can let me know once your book is done. I would love to read it.

[Jannaku]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

Great. I am glad that healingme4me and I were helpful in getting you to make the decision that is best in the short term.

i will PM you my email address so that you can let me know once your book is done. I would love to read it.

Many thanks and please PM me, I would love to share my story.

[Big Mama]

jannaku, I am so sorry for your strugggles. I do know exactly what you are going threw. I have no great words of wisdom, no advice. I just want you to know I am here and I care. Can you contact a lawyer and get a free evaluation or two. These monsters have a way of making things sound very one sided. There goal is to scare and intimidate. They think they know everything. But after speaking w/ a lawyer you may find that the almighty, all knowing husband (as they would think) doesn't really know.

That is my only advice to you. Contact a lawyer and make sure it is a free consultation. see what you can find out on your own. PM me dear if you need to talk. Hang in there.

[Mike_J]

Do some homework.

What are the divorce laws, bankruptcy laws. Know your rights upfront. Whatever you decide information is POWER, stock up on it. Make sure you know everything there is to know about your finances.

Start stashing some cash that NOBODY knows about, bit by bit it can add up.

[Janae]

Hi there, I just read your story and have to agree that now may not be the time for a separation. I can tell you ... separation isn't easy. It hurts even when you want it.

You may hate the abuse, but you're in a stable situation and have what you need. My situation was much different. We had no children in common. No house. No decent income... and the debts are mine alone, and not as intimidating as what you owe.

That leaves the consideration of how you can get through the abusive moments. I hope he is out of the home most of the time - working or whatever he does.

You are well-informed now, and that's the best protection against being negatively affected by the abuse. You know what he's doing and why.

I too am writing about my situation, and believe that writing it out is good therapy. I hope someday I'll be able to read your manuscript.

I agree that consultation with a lawyer is a good first step, but don't let him or her talk you into a separation or divorce that you're not ready for.