[Tauren]

I'm looking for resources or experience with this.

I'm trying to understand self-sabotage. I've been reading about it on the internet, for all the good that does, and all the articles talk about things like procrastination and overeating and stuff that basically everyone does. They always blame low self-esteem and society.

My friend is many steps beyond that. She has stage 4 cancer, and she keeps making decision after decision to sabotage her own health and negate her treatments. This isn't just low self-esteem, it's practically a death wish. If I say that to her she's going to spiral.

I don't figure I can help her since she's in therapy already, I'm just trying to get a grip on it. She told me ages ago that she self-sabotages but I can't understand how you can know you're doing it and keep doing it. All I can do is shake my head and say "I don't understand," which probably just makes her feel worse.

Perhaps, she realizes at stage 4 that her odds of beating it may not be that good and she'd rather have quality than quantity for the remainder of her time here?

I respect that, and that will be my choice also. Most people who undergo chemotherapy are so sick they feel like doing absolutely nothing and end up dying anyway.

Therefore, instead of looking at it as self-sabotage, maybe look at it as an informed decision about how she's choosing to go out, like this lady did:

https://www.facebook.com/DrivingMissNorma/

As far as self-sabotage goes, it is a learned behavior and therefore can be unlearned ... but like anything else involving change, it's a difficult process - especially if it was learned early on and accompanied by feelings of powerlessness and hopelessness, such as a child growing up in a horridly abusive environment.

As painful as it may be for you, I think the best thing you can do is respect her wishes and offer your support the best you can even though you may not understand or agree.

Sincerely,
Pfrog!

[Tauren]

Well, I didn't want to go into extreme detail about her illness, but her treatment is *not* chemo, it some other stuff. A cocktail of various things I can't spell. Even though it's stage 4, it isn't terminal - she could be living a normal life if she took care of herself. She was having what she thought were severe side effects from the treatments, but it turned out to be that she had gone vegan and stopped taking vitamins and started drinking Pepsi instead of water. She is not in pain and the only big problem is fatigue for a day or two after each monthly treatment.

If you ask her, she says she is doing everything she can to fight it and intends to live, but her actions contradict that. And she's not choosing quality of life, she's sabotaging her quality of life, doing things that make her feel worse.

Well, it's her life, her choices ... And, her having to live with the consequences!

Not much any of us can do to change someone else.

All that's left to do is hang in there as long as you can and try to be a friend, but not to the extent that it starts causing you harm as well.

Sincerely,
Pfrog!

[Tauren]

I get what you're saying but at the same time, it's like if someone's drowning and you see a life preserver right there but if you throw it she'll say, "What's this for?"

[EnglishDave]

I spent many, many years following patterns of self-destructive behaviour. All was driven by the Depression and Anxiety I have suffered with since childhood. When you really do not feel because you are so low, harming yourself is a way to punish yourself for being such a waste.

Then there is the Cancer. Getting that diagnosis screws your mind, even when you are the most well-balanced person in the World. It affects everyone differently. In 2012, I was at my lowest, a danger to myself, I struggled through with Therapy. May 8 '13 I was dxed with both Diabetes and Colorectal Cancer in the space of 2 hours. Then there was both abandonment by my T and some positive family news.

My mindset changed with the dx. After seeing my father die of the same Cancer at the age I am now, I determined to beat it. But whilst going through the months of treatment, I talked to others whose attitude covered the whole spectrum from Resignation to Determination. Not even the most skilled Counsellors can change a Cancer sufferer's mindset in my experience.

I would suggest you read up about your friend's condition and treatment. Then, at least, you can have frank and open discussions and you can offer constructive suggestions to negate the self-destructive behaviour. Your friend is lucky to have you.

Dave.

Sorry if this is a little off your post topic, but I think it will help.

We are close to 60, my husband and I. At present we have:

1. Friend dying of cancer
2. Friend dying of cancer (smoking)
3. Business associate needs a liver transplant
4. Friend dying of old age
5. Friend dying of ill health (massive ill health)
6. Business associate's father just died
7. Husband's sister just had her sister-in-law commit suicide
8. Husband's aunt just died of old age (she was 99)

This is all within the last month. The friend listed in 2. above continued to smoke, even though he had emphysema. The emphysema is still there, but now he has lung cancer and 35% lung capacity. It's unlikely he will live much longer. He's 63 and a friend of ours from high school.

I had a friend die of lung cancer at age 46, she was also a smoker. She chose the lowest dose of chemo, so she could get back to work faster (her words). She returned to work, then died within the year when the cancer returned.

People don't always take things seriously, it may be their way of coping. They're not thinking about you when they make their decisions, they're thinking about themselves. Although it may pain you to lose her, it's still about her. Her life, her choice, her death. Your acceptance. I can guarantee this: you will survive the pain of the loss.

[BLUEDOVE]

Hi,
I know this sounds off the wall,but please take it
seriously for friends sake. I think she is addicted to
unhappiness,which is due to a confusion when we are
very young children. When I first seen the following
book title,I thought "nawww,how could you do that?"
By God,was I mistaken;its a bit complicated and long
to describe here,but please take my word,it is true!
The book is "Addicted To Unhappiness" by Martha and
William J. Pieper who are both docs. The 'engine'
that drives it is our subconscious, which is why we are
unaware we are doing things to ourselves in error.
Regards,
BLUEDOVE
`

When someone is addicted to anything, drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling or unhappiness, there's nothing you can do about it. You can ask them to seek help, you can report them and try to force them to get help. But none of those things work. In order to force someone into help, you have to convince a doctor the person means to seriously harm themselves. This will enable that doctor to force the person into involuntary observation for 24 hours. After 24 hours, a psychiatrist speaks to the person. If they deem the person to be "alright," they discharge them. Do you know how easy it is to be normal during a 15 minute interview with a psychiatrist?

So they will get discharged after 24 hours. That's pretty much all you can do. It sounds to me like you can't recognise when your hands are tied. Meanwhile, you're not focussing on what you CAN control. I think you are creating a major unnecessary conflict for yourself that you can't possibly solve. I'm sorry. This is what I see. If I've hurt you in any way, I'm sorry. I know it hurts and I know you worry, but no matter how much you hurt and worry, nothing is going to change. Your friend has to believe she has a problem and has to have a desire to do something about it. If she doesn't, you can't do it for her.

[-jimi-]

Was she like this even before the diagnosis?

I know the frustration of someone killing themselves slowly. I have one of those too, and I spent years trying to help him get better. I don't think when looking back, he EVER took any advice seriously. He just went straight to destructive behavior. When I asked him if he really wanted to die, he wasn't even aware of what he was doing. In his state of denial he was taking care of himself perfectly. I've been doing this for so long I cannot anymore. I can't spend my life trying to save someone who is hellbent on self destruction. I'm currently avoiding him and I have ceased to acknowledge his existence. He wants pity while he kills himself. I have explained that is not my job. I have explained it is torture watching this. He doesn't care about how I feel. So why should I care about how he feels? He does not have cancer but a lot of other very serious health issues.

Originally Posted by -jimi-

Was she like this even before the diagnosis?

I know the frustration of someone killing themselves slowly. I have one of those too, and I spent years trying to help him get better. I don't think when looking back, he EVER took any advice seriously. He just went straight to destructive behavior. When I asked him if he really wanted to die, he wasn't even aware of what he was doing. In his state of denial he was taking care of himself perfectly. I've been doing this for so long I cannot anymore. I can't spend my life trying to save someone who is hellbent on self destruction. I'm currently avoiding him and I have ceased to acknowledge his existence. He wants pity while he kills himself. I have explained that is not my job. I have explained it is torture watching this. He doesn't care about how I feel. So why should I care about how he feels? He does not have cancer but a lot of other very serious health issues.

It's strange how some people become self-destructive. There's clearly something misfiring in their brain that causes them to not care about their survival. The problem is: nobody can care about them in replacement of them caring about themselves. So you can stand by and watch them self-destruct with your hands tied OR you can walk away. And this is a common occurrence in life.

This came out during my CBT. It is directly related to self worth. It is a behaviour that I also did because I was fearful of an even bigger failure or downfall.

I think too my cases of self sabotage also were timed not so much to depression as to hypomania. I make such decisions rashly.

[Tauren]

OK, this is way more detail than I planned to go into, but here's the story:

I have only known her two years, so all this happened before I met her: She was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer in 2005. It went into remission in 2007. She did three rounds of chemo and radiation and had apparently beaten it in 2009. But she became unable to work due to damage from the treatments, got divorced (her second divorce), and had to move into subsidized housing. She stopped going for testing after 2 years. I met her in 2014. The cancer showed up again in 2015. This time it is slow moving and with a cocktail of drugs administered monthly (no chemo) she SHOULD be doing just fine right now. However, she seems to be on a mission to sabotage her treatment.

It's my *opinion* that after 2 failed marriages and being unable to work, she feels she doesn't deserve to get better. She IS seeing a therapist, which is why I try to take a step back and say she's an adult, it's her choice, but I'm ALSO over there every weekend helping her do the stuff she can't manage physically and taking her to appointments, so there's no way I can NOT worry about it.

Originally Posted by Tauren

OK, this is way more detail than I planned to go into, but here's the story:

I have only known her two years, so all this happened before I met her: She was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer in 2005. It went into remission in 2007. She did three rounds of chemo and radiation and had apparently beaten it in 2009. But she became unable to work due to damage from the treatments, got divorced (her second divorce), and had to move into subsidized housing. She stopped going for testing after 2 years. I met her in 2014. The cancer showed up again in 2015. This time it is slow moving and with a cocktail of drugs administered monthly (no chemo) she SHOULD be doing just fine right now. However, she seems to be on a mission to sabotage her treatment.

It's my *opinion* that after 2 failed marriages and being unable to work, she feels she doesn't deserve to get better. She IS seeing a therapist, which is why I try to take a step back and say she's an adult, it's her choice, but I'm ALSO over there every weekend helping her do the stuff she can't manage physically and taking her to appointments, so there's no way I can NOT worry about it.

I'm sorry, I disagree, you can choose to not worry the way you do. Let me ask you two questions: Does all the worrying you do improve anything?

If not, why are you doing it? If your worrying about her is not improving anything, then you yourself are self destructive, because needless worry is hurting you, otherwise you wouldn't be on this forum voicing these concerns. Since you are also participating in self destructive behaviour, I think you are projecting some of it onto her. You need to address your own self destructive behaviour with regard to this needless worry. No amount of worry is going to save her. Only she can save herself.

[EnglishDave]

I rarely do this, but I have to strongly disagree with the above Poster. You are not displaying self-destructive behaviour, you are displaying normal concern for someone you are close to and have a hand in caring for. The above opinion sounds like it comes from the teachings of the most callous Psychologist - and I have been involved with them personally.

Now I know the story, I believe you are in a difficult situation. Your altruistic actions are clearly of great benefit to your friend, even while she is behaving in ways which are damaging to her health. If you are looking for positives, imagine how much worse off she would be without your input. Your altruistic actions are a great help.

As she is in Therapy, I would hope she is discussing her self-destructive behaviour with the intent to modify it. As long as you can continue to give your support without getting too frustrated, I am sure that - deep down - your friend truly appreciates your help. If, and when, the burden becomes too great, then you will have to take a step back.

As someone who needs daily support may I just say I am grateful for people like you. Thank you.

Dave.

[Serzen]

Thanks for the reminder, I try to be very alert about self sabotage because I deal with it every day..

Stay strong!

[-jimi-]

It is a big question if to help those who do not help themselves. We stop suicidal people, we feed anorexics, we treat schizophrenics... all against their will. And society thinks that is OK. Do people think for real those people should not be helped unless they help themselves?

I had hoped to finally break through to my friend, yes to "save" him. Because society does not see what he is doing as like the above categories, which I find random. In this society you are left to yourself if you treat yourself bad because of say depression, if you drink too much or if you eat yourself to death. Then it is all on you, to get motivated, to look for help.

I think that is wrong. I think that should be treated the same as the first group.