[lookinforhelp]

I use the forum for information,research a lot. I am in therapy, on medication and receiving ECT once a month, just to stay in a tolerable range. My depression, DPD and other mental health issues have been and are going to be long term. One thing that I don't have in my life is peer support, sometimes just getting messages/ getting into conversations with people on here is what I need to help me get thru to my next counseling appt.

[Trippin2.0]

Originally Posted by Le.Monsieur.S

I agree that we get some validation from these forums that we are not alone in our suffering, but for me, even though I seek some understanding and someone to relate to my experiences, I feel bad about what I write. So, I have these two contradictory things: I need to vent because I feel bad, so bad, but at the same time, if I vent I feel bad, too, that I wrote what I wrote. Basically because it reminds me of my issues more consciously

Sounds like you have mastered the art of avoiding your issues. This would explain why you feel bad about posting, why you mentally dig in your heels and resist change. You were right, you certainly are not ready for change if you are not even ready to face your problems.


I on the other hand, I tend to avoid my emotions, which is really weird considering my diagnoses are extremely emotive issues... But yeah, I know a thing or two about avoidance, definitely not easy to conquer. Especially if like me, it's something you do subconsciously and automatically.

Originally Posted by Trippin2.0

Sounds like you have mastered the art of avoiding your issues. This would explain why you feel bad about posting, why you mentally dig in your heels and resist change. You were right, you certainly are not ready for change if you are not even ready to face your problems.


I on the other hand, I tend to avoid my emotions, which is really weird considering my diagnoses are extremely emotive issues... But yeah, I know a thing or two about avoidance, definitely not easy to conquer. Especially if like me, it's something you do subconsciously and automatically.

Do you think I enjoy my miserable life to be not ready for change? What hurts me is the fact that I am alone and lonely, even though there is no factual reason for that except the thoughts in my mind. I know what is my primary issue and what I must do. But I simply cannot do it.

[Trippin2.0]

Where did I write, imply, infer or insinuate that any of this is enjoyable for you???

Was there a hidden emoji laughing at you, that I unknowingly typed out manually?

I simply complied with your written request to not preach, not guide or advise, yet in the same breath I tried to empathize with you while validating your very real and very painful experience.


My apologies for obviously doing it wrong.

[vonmoxie]

Originally Posted by Le.Monsieur.S

Do you think I enjoy my miserable life to be not ready for change? What hurts me is the fact that I am alone and lonely, even though there is no factual reason for that except the thoughts in my mind. I know what is my primary issue and what I must do. But I simply cannot do it.

I'm sure you don't consciously enjoy it; there is a also scientific basis for the idea that it's not even you that chooses it, because paradoxically, it's not the conscious mind at all that causes us to "choose" negative feelings:

Despite their differences, pride, shame, and guilt all activate similar neural circuits, including the dorsomedial prefrontal cortex, amygdala, insula, and the nucleus accumbens. Interestingly, pride is the most powerful of these emotions at triggering activity in these regions — except in the nucleus accumbens, where guilt and shame win out. This explains why it can be so appealing to heap guilt and shame on ourselves — they’re activating the brain’s reward center. (2015 Time magazine article)

This says to me that the questions of wanting to feel bad, and of self-sabotaging, are the wrong questions: these impulses are natural, subconscious, hard-wired, and telling ourselves that we are self-sabotaging or feeling sorry for ourselves (or having anyone else tell us) is tantamount to arresting the innocent while letting real criminals run free.

I don't know if you will find this information helpful, but I've found it to be immensely validating. Narrowing these instincts down to being simple neurological impulses takes the snowballing negative emotion out of it for me (feeling bad about why I feel bad, and so on and so on ad infinitum).

[IrisBloom]

No one enjoys suffering, but it is a fact of human nature that we are more comfortable with what we are familiar with even if it is negative or painful for us. For someone who has suffered for years with lack of energy and motivation the thought of boundless energy and bouncing from one project to the next is a scary thought. Although we know intellectually that is how we would like to be, sometimes we can convince ourselves we can't do it. It's not good or bad, it just is the way some of us are. This is a general observation, aimed at no one in particular.

(((Le Monsieur)))

Originally Posted by vonmoxie

I'm sure you don't consciously enjoy it; there is a also scientific basis for the idea that it's not even you that chooses it, because paradoxically, it's not the conscious mind at all that causes us to "choose" negative feelings:
This says to me that the questions of wanting to feel bad, and of self-sabotaging, are the wrong questions: these impulses are natural, subconscious, hard-wired, and telling ourselves that we are self-sabotaging or feeling sorry for ourselves (or having anyone else tell us) is tantamount to arresting the innocent while letting real criminals run free.

I don't know if you will find this information helpful, but I've found it to be immensely validating. Narrowing these instincts down to being simple neurological impulses takes the snowballing negative emotion out of it for me (feeling bad about why I feel bad, and so on and so on ad infinitum).

I am reading Feeling Good by Dr. David Burns, and one of things I learned yesterday from him is that knowing what is causing your problems doesn't usually help solving it. It gives you insight, but probably not a solution. I tend to agree with him. May be you are more reflective and intellectual than me, but for me, especially right now in my closed perception to reality, I need more practical steps to gradually overcome my subconscious impulses, and not just knowing that they are the cause of my issues and my feelings about them. I appreciate your input, though.

Originally Posted by Trippin2.0

Where did I write, imply, infer or insinuate that any of this is enjoyable for you???

Was there a hidden emoji laughing at you, that I unknowingly typed out manually?

I simply complied with your written request to not preach, not guide or advise, yet in the same breath I tried to empathize with you while validating your very real and very painful experience.


My apologies for obviously doing it wrong.

That is the impression I got from your first part.

I have a problem going to a therapist, I admit I am not ready for change in that sense.

Originally Posted by IrisBloom

No one enjoys suffering, but it is a fact of human nature that we are more comfortable with what we are familiar with even if it is negative or painful for us. For someone who has suffered for years with lack of energy and motivation the thought of boundless energy and bouncing from one project to the next is a scary thought. Although we know intellectually that is how we would like to be, sometimes we can convince ourselves we can't do it. It's not good or bad, it just is the way some of us are. This is a general observation, aimed at no one in particular.

(((Le Monsieur)))

Thanks, but again this is just insightful. I mean, how knowing that you prefer your comfort zone better than getting out of it, no matter how painful it is, will help someone like me getting better?

[IrisBloom]

It can make you aware of what is going on behind the scenes in your illness, maybe. It takes great strength of will to change yourself. It can be done and has been done by many people on this forum. You might need help, but the actual changes have to come from within you.

[vonmoxie]

Originally Posted by Le.Monsieur.S

I am reading Feeling Good by Dr. David Burns, and one of things I learned yesterday from him is that knowing what is causing your problems doesn't usually help solving it. It gives you insight, but probably not a solution. I tend to agree with him. May be you are more reflective and intellectual than me, but for me, especially right now in my closed perception to reality, I need more practical steps to gradually overcome my subconscious impulses, and not just knowing that they are the cause of my issues and my feelings about them. I appreciate your input, though.

Vive la différence! I know a lot of people who swear by Dr. Burns' variety of CBT, you're surely in excellent hands. For me I think that the better I understand the brain, the kinder I can be to it and myself in the process. My old noggin works hard and deserves the best love I can muster up, which I suppose in my case is somewhat nerdy in nature.

Despite their differences, pride, shame, and guilt all activate similar neural circuits, including the dorsomedial prefrontal cortex, amygdala, insula, and the nucleus accumbens. Interestingly, pride is the most powerful of these emotions at triggering activity in these regions — except in the nucleus accumbens, where guilt and shame win out. This explains why it can be so appealing to heap guilt and shame on ourselves — they’re activating the brain’s reward center. (2015 Time magazine article)

What? guilt and shame activate our brain's reward centers? Do you mean that they release something like dopamine, and makes us addicted to it? But this is in opposition to the definition of "reward system", because guilt and shame make us feel bad and not happy, isn't it?

Also, what does make us feel guilty or ashamed in the first place? The brain is truly a mysterious organ. It controls itself, and it affects itself. So you need to control your thoughts of pride, guilt, and shame, before it becomes a habit, or to break the habit of feeling guilty. But then what generates out thought of guilt in the first place? I would assume our genes and biology have the tendency to do so.

I am not familiar with the brain's part's names and how those things affect the brain (or the brain affects itself), but I think pride has a lot to do with suffering, and I think it might be the source of guilt and shame, and indeed it is stronger. We don't want to reveal our weak self to others. (When I first joined these forums, I was more comfortable posting about my personal issues. But now, that I feel I began to know some people, more like familiarity, makes me less comfortable to post.)

Anyway, but again, back to the anatomy of the brain, and the processes of mind., those are like knowing a computer's hardware design to a computer's end-user. It is nice to know how the computer works, but that serves no help if you don't have a software interface to interact with it. This software is something flexible and can be changed and adapted to best use the hardware. We need something we can control to access our brains and minds.

[Trippin2.0]

Originally Posted by Le.Monsieur.S

That is the impression I got from your first part.

I have a problem going to a therapist, I admit I am not ready for change in that sense.

Well then I will do us both a favour and refrain from posting any further, because I still have no clue how you got that particular impression.


FWIW, if I was even trying to be snarky, I wouldn't attempt to hide it, it would be clear as daylight.


Take care

Originally Posted by Trippin2.0

Well then I will do us both a favour and refrain from posting any further, because I still have no clue how you got that particular impression.


FWIW, if I was even trying to be snarky, I wouldn't attempt to hide it, it would be clear as daylight.


Take care

Call me super sensitive, but assume that your friend came to you and he/she told you that I cannot change and get better, and feel bad when I talk about it, to which you replied him/her: you're right, you are not ready for change. What do you think he/she will feel and think you meant? Just think about it from this angle.

[Trippin2.0]

Originally Posted by Le.Monsieur.S

Call me super sensitive, but assume that your friend came to you and he/she told you that I cannot change and get better, and feel bad when I talk about it, to which you replied him/her: you're right, you are not ready for change. What do you think he/she will feel and think you meant? Just think about it from this angle.

I was specifically referring to YOUR very own original post. You may want to re-read it before you accuse me of whatever it is I'm being accused of.

Originally Posted by Le.Monsieur.S

I have been in this forum for more than 2 years now, and I am not sure what I am getting from it, honestly. Sometimes I need to tell someone something, but at the same time telling this thing makes me feel bad and sometimes cry because I think of my situation more consciously to put it in words, and haven't changed a bit. People tell you things you already know, but you are just not ready yet to embrace them.How do you think this forum is helpful?

Now I will, bow out respectfully, because you are admittedly sensitive, and I am admittedly not very patient with people putting words in my mouth or attaching hidden meanings to my words, as if I have nefarious reasons for posting.


PS. My friends would think and feel that I'm trying to be helpful, that I was VALIDATING what they had already personally said and acknowledging their struggle. They don't jump to negative assumptions about me just because the words aren't candy coated. They know I'm not Willy Wonka and that I don't sugar coat shyt. Shyt is shyt, end of story.

I tell it like it is, as long as I'm being respectful.

[vonmoxie]

Originally Posted by Le.Monsieur.S

What? guilt and shame activate our brain's reward centers? Do you mean that they release something like dopamine, and makes us addicted to it? But this is in opposition to the definition of "reward system", because guilt and shame make us feel bad and not happy, isn't it?

Also, what does make us feel guilty or ashamed in the first place? The brain is truly a mysterious organ. It controls itself, and it affects itself. So you need to control your thoughts of pride, guilt, and shame, before it becomes a habit, or to break the habit of feeling guilty. But then what generates out thought of guilt in the first place? I would assume our genes and biology have the tendency to do so.

I am not familiar with the brain's part's names and how those things affect the brain (or the brain affects itself), but I think pride has a lot to do with suffering, and I think it might be the source of guilt and shame, and indeed it is stronger. We don't want to reveal our weak self to others. (When I first joined these forums, I was more comfortable posting about my personal issues. But now, that I feel I began to know some people, more like familiarity, makes me less comfortable to post.)

Anyway, but again, back to the anatomy of the brain, and the processes of mind., those are like knowing a computer's hardware design to a computer's end-user. It is nice to know how the computer works, but that serves no help if you don't have a software interface to interact with it. This software is something flexible and can be changed and adapted to best use the hardware. We need something we can control to access our brains and minds.

It's not me suggesting that these feelings pump the reward center, but science: "the nucleus accumbens has a significant role in the cognitive processing of aversion, motivation, pleasure, reward and reinforcement learning; hence, it has a significant role in addiction. It plays a lesser role in processing fear (a form of aversion), impulsivity, and the placebo effect. It is involved in the encoding of new motor programs as well." (source) I do wonder if there may have been some larger original purpose to deeply harboring feelings of guilt and shame that was necessary to prior versions of our species, of which it's now mostly a vestigial psychological remnant; similar to how fight-or-flight serves much less useful purpose in modern interactions than it once did.

I get a lot of peace and comfort from understanding how things work; it helps me to commune in general, both with the world and with myself. Helps me to stop asking myself the question "why would I do XYZ" when I can better understand why, and freed up from berating myself about what I might otherwise ascribe overbearingly conscious responsibility I can then better deal with what's happening in real time.

(I suppose I consider myself more than an end-user of my brain. I'm also the administrator, the development team, the finance department, marketing, human resources.. hospitality.. room service.. )

As far as this forum goes though.. I've been actively posting for over a year now, and it's still the case that when posting about something personal, the emotional stakes are raised for me, and I think that will always be the case to some extent. It has gotten better over time; it's not that the stakes have changed, but that I've become more accustomed to the idea that the existence of differing opinions needn't negate the validity of my own -- and through the discourse that results will generally serve as enhancements to my thought process, and I think that's been a positive development for me. I've always been someone who can articulate myself pretty well, but I notice that I now make more judicious communication decisions in real life, that is, better selecting with whom to most successfully share various subject matter, having had the opportunity to see the results of more freely workshopping a wider array of thoughts, topics, and interaction styles here with the good people of PC.

I post often as a way of communicating, learning about other bipolars, and offering advice. Also I really just enjoy chatting and having conversations with different types of people.

[Steiner of Thule]

Main thing I understood from this forum is that all the problems can be solved with meds and therapy. If you ask any question; that is probably the response you are going to get. People just want a sounding board. Nothing you say matters. I tend to feel like you shouldn't expect as much support here if you're male.

[continuosly blue]

Originally Posted by Le.Monsieur.S

People with mental disorders or stresses in life don't want preaching, as most people do in this forum: "try this ...", "see a therapist ...". People project their current mental state on others who might be suffering or even suicidal at the very same moment. I even find professional therapy lack the empathy for patients. I tried it, and it was robotic. So, I quit it.

I'd like to say this to you. It's true what you say but it's called "advice". People , me included, try to share that they are going, or have been through, what your dealing with. As far as therapists go it could take a while before you find someone you click with. Getting better TAKES WORK. It's just not going to come to you so easily like I suspect you think it will. if you feel you are in crisis then admit yourself for inpatient treatment .

Best of luck

[continuosly blue]

Originally Posted by kindness

I agree that we need more compassion in this world.

I didn't tell you to do this or do that and you'll get better. No, I simply made you think: What do YOU want?

And you told me.

I agree with you 100%. Most people will post about this or that but not give you ant INFO. ! Sometimes you have to drag it out of them little by little. Then they finally open up a little and share what's REALLY going on. It's at that point where they can start to get some real help.

[continuosly blue]

Originally Posted by Le.Monsieur.S

I agree that we get some validation from these forums that we are not alone in our suffering, but for me, even though I seek some understanding and someone to relate to my experiences, I feel bad about what I write. So, I have these two contradictory things: I need to vent because I feel bad, so bad, but at the same time, if I vent I feel bad, too, that I wrote what I wrote. Basically because it reminds me of my issues more consciously, and partly because of exposing my personal emotions and life to others, even though no one knows me, and I know no one personally. Others' posts might make it worse. It is my experience with every single thread I've opened about my personal issues.

Being in contradiction with yourself is pretty common and what I believe creates the emotional conflict you have to begin with.

And the whole idea of getting better IS to bring your "problems" right to the forefront, which is to a point in consciousness where you can begin to try and understand yourself and your problems better.. It's like climbing out of a dark hole up into the light.

If you don't take the risk to share with others ,that you don't even know but can be empathetic , you will always be inside your own head. Is that where you want to be ? Obviously the fact you posted here means you might need to get "out of your own head".

So now we also seem to be getting to at least one issue . You have already posted some of your issues and maybe got some responses you didn't particularly care for. Your probably very sensitive to criticism perhaps. I know I don't like to be "disagreed" with but you see that's part of my problem. Therefore it is helpful to be criticized and learn from it.

Keep coming back

[continuosly blue]

Originally Posted by vonmoxie

I'm sure you don't consciously enjoy it; there is a also scientific basis for the idea that it's not even you that chooses it, because paradoxically, it's not the conscious mind at all that causes us to "choose" negative feelings:
This says to me that the questions of wanting to feel bad, and of self-sabotaging, are the wrong questions: these impulses are natural, subconscious, hard-wired, and telling ourselves that we are self-sabotaging or feeling sorry for ourselves (or having anyone else tell us) is tantamount to arresting the innocent while letting real criminals run free.

I don't know if you will find this information helpful, but I've found it to be immensely validating. Narrowing these instincts down to being simple neurological impulses takes the snowballing negative emotion out of it for me (feeling bad about why I feel bad, and so on and so on ad infinitum).

Very well said and informative !

Thank you

[continuosly blue]

Originally Posted by Le.Monsieur.S

I am reading Feeling Good by Dr. David Burns, and one of things I learned yesterday from him is that knowing what is causing your problems doesn't usually help solving it. It gives you insight, but probably not a solution. I tend to agree with him. May be you are more reflective and intellectual than me, but for me, especially right now in my closed perception to reality, I need more practical steps to gradually overcome my subconscious impulses, and not just knowing that they are the cause of my issues and my feelings about them. I appreciate your input, though.

That view is partially correct. For many people, getting an insight into the reasons which can be responsible for their current psychological dilemma , is quite helpful. Psychotherapy is this type of treatment. It can also lead to a "diagnosis".

Now if your not interested in having any insight , there are many forms of therapy out there that can help you change your current feelings or behavior without getting insightful. You can learn how to change your thoughts right on the spot. DBT , CBT , etc....
And quite a great deal of information is available on PC Central. Right here.

Best to you ,regardless of the method you choose , or believe , is best for you. I'd like to caution you though.
Remain OPENMINDED !

[continuosly blue]

Originally Posted by Steiner of Thule

Main thing I understood from this forum is that all the problems can be solved with meds and therapy. If you ask any question; that is probably the response you are going to get. People just want a sounding board. Nothing you say matters. I tend to feel like you shouldn't expect as much support here if you're male.

???????????????????????????

[Steiner of Thule]

Originally Posted by continuosly blue

???????????????????????????

What was unclear?