[Atypical_Disaster]

Defining what narcissism is, that can be tricky because as it stands there really is no cut and dry definition besides excessive self-love and a total lack of empathy. There's nothing but controversy about what causes it, nature VS nurture blah blah blah.

But I can sure as **** tell people what narcissism is NOT(though some of these may be features of some Narcissists it's not about the condition of pathological Narcissism aka NPD in and of itself):

-Vanity
-Sadism
-Psychopathy
-Sociopathy
-Vindictiveness
-Vengeful behavior
-Pathological lying
-A result of bad parenting
-A result of "ego shattering"
-Some BS defense mechanism against shame
-Some nonsense about secretly being a ray of empathetic light deep down if only someone could love a Narcissist unconditionally.

[hazn]

Hahaha I love the last one... that kind of thinking was so me!!!

[marmaduke]

The 'ego shattering, bad parenting, defense mechanism' stuff so many seem to love so much is all bull####.

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[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by marmaduke

The 'ego shattering, bad parenting, defense mechanism' stuff so many seem to love so much is all bull####.

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I know it is utter BS as far as my "case" is concerned. Yes, I am a Narcissist... It was not some thing my parents did or did not do. I was born this way, plain and simple. It is no defense mechanism for me, it is a way of being that deviants from the "norm" and causes quite a lot of destruction hence the reason NPD is coined a "disorder" and not "a human trait that everyone possesses". Smirking.

[vonmoxie]

Originally Posted by here today

Psychopathy is about being wired differently – As has been said before, all psychopaths are narcissists but not all narcissists are psychopaths – meaning not all narcissists are necessarily wired that way.

Lumping all narcissists into one category still seems to me, in general, to be a mistake. But if being wired differently is the definition of NPD that the narcissists in this forum agree applies to them personally then that, of course, is understandably what this forum will be about.

Actually, not all narcissists are psychopaths AND not all psychopaths are narcissists. There tends to be confusion around the 'psychopathy' terminology because all though it describes a psychological profile, it's traditionally been more of a legal definition.

Although no psychiatric or psychological organization has sanctioned a diagnosis titled "psychopathy", assessments of psychopathic characteristics are widely used in criminal justice settings in some nations, and may have important consequences for individuals. The term is also used by the general public, in popular press, and in fictional portrayals.

Most professionals I know prefer to avoid the terminology altogether. However, there is definition of a sort for it within both the DSM and International Classification of Diseases (ICD), which have each:

introduced the diagnoses of antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) and dissocial personality disorder, stating that these have been referred to (or include what is referred to) as psychopathy or sociopathy.

Narcissism is only a possible aspect of a psychopathic personality:

Otto Kernberg, from a particular psychoanalytic perspective, believed psychopathy should be considered as part of a spectrum of pathological narcissism, that would range from narcissistic personality on the low end, malignant narcissism in the middle, and psychopathy at the high end. However, narcissism is generally seen as only one possible aspect of psychopathy as broadly defined. (source)

Psychopathy: the more you know.

[vonmoxie]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

-Some nonsense about secretly being a ray of empathetic light deep down if only someone could love a Narcissist unconditionally.

This one made me laugh. Narcissists I know are more skilled at receiving the unconditional love of others than anyone I've ever met. Not sure they know what to do with it all, but they know how to get it...

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by vonmoxie

This one made me laugh. Narcissists I know are more skilled at receiving the unconditional love of others than anyone I've ever met. Not sure they know what to do with it all, but they know how to get it...

I know that's definitely true of me. Smirk.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by vonmoxie

Actually, not all narcissists are psychopaths AND not all psychopaths are narcissists. There tends to be confusion around the 'psychopathy' terminology because all though it describes a psychological profile, it's traditionally been more of a legal definition.Most professionals I know prefer to avoid the terminology altogether. However, there is definition of a sort for it within both the DSM and International Classification of Diseases (ICD), which have each: Narcissism is only a possible aspect of a psychopathic personality:Psychopathy: the more you know.

Good point. I am good friends with someone who has ASPD, and he is certainly NOT narcissistic. Antisocials are commonly narcissistic, but as has been stated narcissism is only one feature of psychopathy and it is not always present.

[hazn]

Originally Posted by vonmoxie

This one made me laugh. Narcissists I know are more skilled at receiving the unconditional love of others than anyone I've ever met. Not sure they know what to do with it all, but they know how to get it...

I wouldn't say they're skilled... the reality is it's quite sick. They're sick. There's nothing skillful about finding someone who is highly empathic, lacks self-esteem, has issues with boundaries, etc, and getting them to buy into your story. There's nothing skillful about abusing someone who was unhealthy to begin with.

[marmaduke]

Narcissists are not psychopaths, but all psychopaths are narcissists.

Narcissistics/sociopaths/psychopaths are similar. They lack all empathy.

ASPDs IMO can have empathy, they kick out at society. Hurt, often by dysfunctional parenting.

Psychopaths are the most dangerous as they are also fearless.

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[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by marmaduke

Narcissists are not psychopaths, but all psychopaths are narcissists.

Narcissistics/sociopaths/psychopaths are similar. They lack all empathy.

Psychopaths are the most dangerous as they are also fearless.

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Yes, it is true Psychopaths know no fear. That's where one can start to see differences between Narcissists and Psychopaths. Narcissists are very capable of fear, even if they hide it well.

[vonmoxie]

Originally Posted by hazn

I wouldn't say they're skilled... the reality is it's quite sick. They're sick. There's nothing skillful about finding someone who is highly empathic, lacks self-esteem, has issues with boundaries, etc, and getting them to buy into your story. There's nothing skillful about abusing someone who was unhealthy to begin with.

I don't believe skills are specifically defined as being positive; having negative results doesn't negate the existence of a skill, and things that may start as mere traits can certainly become skills in time. Similarly, many politicians have the specific skill of being able to make everyone they meet feel as though they are special to them, and while they may be the most insincere, duplicitous civil "servants" known to man, this doesn't change the fact that it's skillful of them. If the trait of being able to so completely maintain the unconditional love of others could be bottled, you'd be a millionaire (and many are).

Originally Posted by hazn

I wouldn't say they're skilled... the reality is it's quite sick. They're sick. There's nothing skillful about finding someone who is highly empathic, lacks self-esteem, has issues with boundaries, etc, and getting them to buy into your story. There's nothing skillful about abusing someone who was unhealthy to begin with.

May I add that sometimes we see through a NPD mask, but love them anyways?

[hazn]

Originally Posted by vonmoxie

I don't believe skills are specifically defined as being positive; having negative results doesn't negate the existence of a skill, and things that may start as mere traits can certainly become skills in time. Similarly, many politicians have the specific skill of being able to make everyone they meet feel as though they are special to them, and while they may be the most insincere, duplicitous civil "servants" known to man, this doesn't change the fact that it's skillful of them. If the trait of being able to so completely maintain the unconditional love of others could be bottled, you'd be a millionaire (and many are).

Like I said in the remainder of my post, there's nothing skillful about exploiting a codependent person. NPD is not a skill, it's a personality disorder. I've read a lot of posts where people act as if narcissists are something special. Let's get back to reality, please. Tickling the ego of a narcissist is sad, just as sad as their own inability to see how damaged they are.

[hazn]

Originally Posted by ValentinaVVV

May I add that sometimes we see through a NPD mask, but love them anyways?

What does that even mean? Please explain.

Somerimes we love our Narc. We recognize their tantrums and devalue and need for compliments and play along.

[hazn]

Originally Posted by ValentinaVVV

Somerimes we love our Narc. We recognize their tantrums and devalue and need for compliments and play along.

Why would you do that? If you love someone, why would you enable their bad behaviour? That sounds like asking for trouble to me. I'm pretty sure narcs look at us and laugh when we say such things.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by ValentinaVVV

May I add that sometimes we see through a NPD mask, but love them anyways?

I've never understood this behavior, people have certainly done that with me and it is just astounding to me. It's like wow lol you're just volunteering for exploitation then.

[vonmoxie]

Originally Posted by hazn

Like I said in the remainder of my post, there's nothing skillful about exploiting a codependent person. NPD is not a skill, it's a personality disorder. I've read a lot of posts where people act as if narcissists are something special. Let's get back to reality, please. Tickling the ego of a narcissist is sad, just as sad as their own inability to see how damaged they are.

A skill is the learned ability to carry out a task with pre-determined results often within a given amount of time, energy, or both. Howland, J.L. (2013). Facts101: Textbook Key Facts. Contents Technologies Inc.". Retrieved 2015-10-03.

I can certainly understand the emotion of your reactions here, but being able to look at situations accurately and clinically is not the same thing as tickling anyone's egos.

Also, I would submit that working at debasing the ego of a narcissist (or attempting to) is just as sad a body of effort as may be tickling it (which I don't see how identifying an obvious skill as technically existing is doing), because it's wasted effort on the part of the non. I mean, it might make you feel good, but it doesn't affect the narc, so what's so much better about a behavior that only keeps you in a cycle of negative thoughts? My personal opinion and experience is that there's no better bid for sanity than releasing one's emotions and mental efforts from any rollercoaster rides of being overengaged with narcs. Just say no.

I may be at a different juncture though. I split up with a narc husband what is now about 15 years ago, and although I still wince when I have to hear my always overengaged mother go on about how hard things are for my narc sister (she is an uber-rich, high society girl who owns multiple residences in new york city, in the hamptons, in other locations looked upon by the rich as acceptable parking spots, she has her own fashion line, knows everybody on the circuit, goes to all the best parties, is a perfect looking person having access to better plastic surgery than you've ever seen in hollywood, etc. etc. etc. doesn't it sound so terrible) only because it's hard to watch her badly invest so much emotional energy, but for me, although I can't help but love my sister because love is love and can't be reeled in the way we would like sometimes, having accepted what is possible and what truly isn't I'm released from being hurt anymore.

I think as long as you're still throwing barbs and getting worked up about what narcs are and do, you're probably still caught in the emotional cycle with them. You might want to try getting off the ride and watching from the sidelines. The view is good.

But hey. That's my reality. You have yours and I'm glad it's working for you however well it does. I'm just not clear on what makes you so confident that your reality is simply, "reality"..

[hazn]

Originally Posted by vonmoxie

I can certainly understand the emotion of your reactions here, but being able to look at situations accurately and clinically is not the same thing as tickling anyone's egos.

Also, I would submit that working at debasing the ego of a narcissist (or attempting to) is just as sad a body of effort as may be tickling it (which I don't see how identifying an obvious skill as technically existing is doing), because it's wasted effort on the part of the non. I mean, it might make you feel good, but it doesn't affect the narc, so what's so much better about a behavior that only keeps you in a cycle of negative thoughts? My personal opinion and experience is that there's no better bid for sanity than releasing one's emotions and mental efforts from any rollercoaster rides of being overengaged with narcs. Just say no.

I may be at a different juncture though. I split up with a narc husband what is now about 15 years ago, and although I still wince when I have to hear my always overengaged mother go on about how hard things are for my narc sister (she is an uber-rich, high society girl who owns multiple residences in new york city, in the hamptons, in other locations looked upon by the rich as acceptable parking spots, she has her own fashion line, knows everybody on the circuit, goes to all the best parties, is a perfect looking person having access to better plastic surgery than you've ever seen in hollywood, etc. etc. etc. doesn't it sound so terrible) only because it's hard to watch her badly invest so much emotional energy, but for me, although I can't help but love my sister because love is love and can't be reeled in the way we would like sometimes, having accepted what is possible and what truly isn't I'm released from being hurt anymore.

I think as long as you're still throwing barbs and getting worked up about what narcs are and do, you're still caught in the emotional cycle with them. Better to get off the ride and watch from the sidelines.

But hey. That's my reality. You have yours and I'm glad it's working for you however well it does. I'm just not clear on what makes you so confident that your reality is simply, "reality"..

My post wasn't based on emotion/my experience, it was based on my belief that feeding the ego of someone who you know has NPD is wrong. But, it sounds like that wasn't your intention so I must have misunderstood what you were trying to say. Anyway, for me it's not about trying to attack the ego of the narcissist, it's about seeing NPD for what it is... a personality disorder. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts, they make a lot of sense.

[here today]

Originally Posted by vonmoxie

. . .I can't help but love my sister because love is love and can't be reeled in the way we would like sometimes, having accepted what is possible and what truly isn't I'm released from being hurt anymore.

Rings true for me, too. Only in my case, it was very disconcerting and confusing when I was numbed out and sometimes couldn’t feel my love for my relatives, so I am glad to be together/integrated so that I know that I love my daughter even when I am angry with her, and my sister even if, for the time being at least, we can’t be close.

Love does make me vulnerable, that’s true. But if/when I can know and acknowledge my own “underground” I feel like I’m less likely to be taken advantage of.

Color-blindness is an analogy that came to my mind and I also saw it recently in an online article about people who are born without empathy. I’ve appreciated what I’ve read here about how Atypical and Underground experience life. Different from me, yes. But as I’ve mentioned before, I’m different from the norm, too, and have experienced a lot of rejection for things I either couldn’t help or hadn’t had the (extra?) training/acceptance I needed in order to understand how to both be myself and fit in.

[Atypical_Disaster]

People lash out in fear over what they do not understand. Pity, really. I've dealt with more personal attacks on here from people with their capacity for empathy fully intact than I have ever dealt with from any Narcissist, Sociopath, or Psychopath around here.

Do you all think insulting me instead of whoever ****ed you up in your past is somehow going to make things better? It won't. You're making it worse.

I do not appreciate being insulted on literally the only forum where I can actually talk about my experiences as a Narcissist. For all of you who think this is some sort of cakewalk for Underground and me, you are all dead wrong.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by hazn

Why would you do that? If you love someone, why would you enable their bad behaviour? That sounds like asking for trouble to me. I'm pretty sure narcs look at us and laugh when we say such things.

Why are you in here if, according to you, only "unhealthy" people would give evil ****er Narcissists like me the time of day?

[vonmoxie]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

I've dealt with more personal attacks on here from people with their capacity for empathy fully intact than I have ever dealt with from any Narcissist, Sociopath, or Psychopath around here.

The irony of this is always stunning to me.. in that it is so easily lost on people.

More irony: it seems to me there is quite a bit of narcissism involved in believing that one can "enable" a narc's bad behavior (or anyone else's, unless maybe you're dropping alcoholics off at the bar and giving them allowance money). As if! I mean, to talk about how difficult it is for an NPD personality to change even if they want to, and then imagine that somehow our actions are enabling them seem to me to be incompatible ideas. While I am a fan of not rewarding people's bad behavior, that's a rule I have for everybody, whatever I think of them and however I regard them. Do or don't do for the narcs in your life whatever you choose, but trying to effectuate change through those choices seems an ineffective use of mental efforts at best.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by vonmoxie

The irony of this is always stunning to me.. in that it is so easily lost on people.

More irony: it seems to me there is quite a bit of narcissism involved in believing that one can "enable" a narc's bad behavior (or anyone else's, unless maybe you're dropping alcoholics off at the bar and giving them allowance money). As if! I mean, to talk about how difficult it is for an NPD personality to change even if they want to, and then imagine that somehow our actions are enabling them seem to me to be incompatible ideas. While I am a fan of not rewarding people's bad behavior, that's a rule I have for everybody, whatever I think of them and however I regard them. Do or don't do for the narcs in your life whatever you choose, but trying to effectuate change through those choices seems an ineffective use of mental efforts at best.

I am really enjoying your perspective. Well thought out, I like that.

There is much irony in how "nons" view Narcissists. Many have attempted at "changing" me over the years. I think it is a pretty grandiose idea to believe you can fundamentally change another person but what do I know? After all I'm evil by default because I don't feel empathy. Smirk.

No one should be rewarded for bad behavior regardless of the diagnosis. That is a rule I have also, I do not condone bad behavior and I do not care who it's coming from.

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