[here today]

I think that Atypical has been hinting/saying that she believes she is narcissistic more as the result of nature than nurture, although nurture had some part in it. People are scared of the work "psychopath", but Dr. James Fallon had a very good environment growing up, as I understand it, has never been in trouble with the law, is married, is an esteemed scientist, etc.

It also seems clear to me that Underground is more like my dad. It was almost impossible for my dad to be directly mean. Lots of oversights, selfishness, was unfaithful to my mom, etc. Very different kind of narcissism.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by here today

I think that Atypical has been hinting/saying that she believes she is narcissistic more as the result of nature than nurture, although nurture had some part in it. People are scared of the word "psychopath", but Dr. James Fallon had a very good environment growing up, as I understand it, has never been in trouble with the law, is married, is an esteemed scientist, etc.

It also seems clear to me that Underground is more like my dad. It was almost impossible for my dad to be directly mean. Lots of oversights, selfishness, was unfaithful to my mom, etc. Very different kind of narcissism.

I have said openly that I believe I'm more a product of nature than nurture, though my horrific upbringing undoubtedly exacerbated certain personality traits of mine.

Underground and I are both highly narcissistic beings, but it is true that the flavor of said narcissism is really rather different between the two of us.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by MissFiona

I once had an NPD partner say something very similar to me once in real life. It was THE worst experience I ever had with anyone after he told me 'cos by the next day he had morphed into the antichrist due to his revelation. Which caused me to turn into a bigger AC than him! This was the turning point for me where I started to look for answers.

I think the anonymity of a forum makes it easier for me to reveal thoughts I have definately learnt not to reveal to anyone in real life situations!

The internet is lovely that way... It is a way I can lower my mask, though I am still rather guarded, even here. I think that's more out of habit than anything else.

[SnowyOwl1]

Thanks for the welcomes! I have found it very interesting to read here. I was married to someone that I'm fairly certain had NPD. I was messed up for a while afterward, but I spent a long time in therapy, and I'm a lot better now. I've read a lot about NPD and other personality disorders, trying to better understand what happened, why I fell for him, etc. As others said, it's really interesting to hear what self-aware people with NPD think about their traits. I know you've had some angry Non-NPD people come through here with insults; that's not my intention. I am interested in discussing the topics honestly.

[here today]

Thought some might be interested in this interview with Dr. Fallon.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by here today

Thought some might be interested in this interview with Dr. Fallon.

I just bought his book, The Psychopath Inside. Started reading it, I'm fascinated. He reminds me of me in quite a few ways.

[marmaduke]

Originally Posted by here today

I think that Atypical has been hinting/saying that she believes she is narcissistic more as the result of nature than nurture, although nurture had some part in it. People are scared of the work "psychopath", but Dr. James Fallon had a very good environment growing up, as I understand it, has never been in trouble with the law, is married, is an esteemed scientist, etc.

It also seems clear to me that Underground is more like my dad. It was almost impossible for my dad to be directly mean. Lots of oversights, selfishness, was unfaithful to my mom, etc. Very different kind of narcissism.

True James Fallon had a very good upbringing, in fact most psychopaths are not in prison. They can do well. My last partner was a high functioning psychopath. Ruthless, made his own rules and never lost any sleep worrying over people.
James family do say he was always different and that there were times they were frightened of him, sensing what he was capable of.
In his family back ground there is a history of dark deeds, murders and the like. His great grandmother was murdered by her husband. James believes he is a descendant of a long line of psychopaths.

He said he was saved, by his exceptionally good upbringing.

I suspect the reason he has risen to such heights is because he is a powerful, fearless, ruthless psychopath.
He said he has done his best to train himself to consider others.

James Fallons research is one of the reasons I believe narcissists/psychopaths are born, not made.
Nature provides the gun, nurture pulls the trigger.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...f-a-psychopath

[here today]

Originally Posted by marmaduke

. . .James Fallons research is one of the reasons I believe narcissists/psychopaths are born, not made.
Nature provides the gun, nurture pulls the trigger.

I believe that my late father met the criteria for NPD and that it was largely environmentally caused. He had a difficult childhood but he DID love – himself, mostly.

All of us have a nature that may do well in a positive environment, not so well in a poor one, and some people are resilient no matter what the situation.

There’s an article on the main PC page about the differences between psychopaths and sociopaths which addresses nature/nurture in people with anti-social personality disorder.

Differences Between a Psychopath vs Sociopath | World of Psychology

To quote just one sentence: “Psychology researchers generally believe that psychopaths tends to be born — it’s likely a genetic predisposition — while sociopaths tend to be made by their environment.”

James Fallon does not have antisocial personality disorder. I’ve seen him in a video saying that he is narcissistic so I’ll take his word on that. But if some people with antisocial personality are made, not born, seems likely that the same would apply to people with NPD.

So far as I know, though, there's not a clear difference in terms for people with NPD who may have psychopathic brains and those who may not.

[marmaduke]

IMO narcissists are likely born that way wired differently (a problem with the Amygdala?)
So I agree with Fallon.
My mother was NPD born that way. In her case she had not been abused as a child.
I have read loads, but in my experience PDs tend to be inherited.
Fallon is a psychopath all psychopaths are narcissists.
Antisocials I believe are likely made damaged by neglect and abuse lashing out at society.
You say your father did love, mostly himself.
Narcissists do love themselves, they usually also feel plenty of emotion buckets of that, loving attention and drama. But they do not feel empathy. It's all about them.
There are many variables so no absolutes.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

[here today]

Originally Posted by marmaduke

IMO narcissists are likely born that way wired differently (a problem with the Amygdala?)
So I agree with Fallon.
My mother was NPD born that way. In her case she had not been abused as a child.
I have read loads, but in my experience PDs tend to be inherited.
There are many variables so no absolutes.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

Sorry, marmaduke. Fallon has said that he himself believed it was all genetic until he came upon himself and his life didn't fit the pattern of a psychopath. So he was forced to consider that environment was a factor.

Neuroscience will probably tell the story eventually. But for now, you and I just don't agree.

[marmaduke]

The PD is genetic. Fallon is still a psychopath. Most psychopaths are not in prison.
All his family knew he was 'different' and he got into lots of trouble as a teen.
His excellent family life saved him from prison. He has lived the life of a psychopath.
I reckon Trump and sons are psychopaths. Disregard for others, ruthless, materialistic, make their own rules, greedy, trophy hunting muderers. No empathy going on there.

I have never said eviroment was not a factor.
Nature loads the gun, nuture pulls the trigger.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

I know him.
I saw a clip of him.
He said there are things about himself he won't talk about, because his wife is still alive.

[marmaduke]

Atypical.
Do you think a narcissist is capable of love?
And do you think therapy can help or 'cure' a pathological (not learnt traits) narcissist?
Has therapy helped you?

I know therapy would have done nothing for my mother.
NPD was her, just like her blue eyes or brown hair. A chat was gonna change none of those things.

My narcissistic possibly psychopathic sister mothers golden child (her mini me) used to tell me she 'felt nothing' that even if her daughters were out late she never worried. It puzzled her that apparently other people did worry.
We don't have any contact now she really is evil.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

[here today]

Originally Posted by marmaduke

I know therapy would have done nothing for my mother.
NPD was her, just like her blue eyes or brown hair. A chat was gonna change none of those things.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

Maybe this will help. I am not disagreeing about your mother. You know her from a lifetime, I do not. I can understand how horrific it may feel to have a mother totally without empathy, which is what I understand that people with psychopathic brains can be like.

So I’m not saying that we disagree about your mother.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Wow a lot of posts, I will respond to the ones I don't find boring.

Originally Posted by here today

I believe that my late father met the criteria for NPD and that it was largely environmentally caused. He had a difficult childhood but he DID love – himself, mostly.

All of us have a nature that may do well in a positive environment, not so well in a poor one, and some people are resilient no matter what the situation.

There’s an article on the main PC page about the differences between psychopaths and sociopaths which addresses nature/nurture in people with anti-social personality disorder.

Differences Between a Psychopath vs Sociopath | World of Psychology

To quote just one sentence: “Psychology researchers generally believe that psychopaths tends to be born — it’s likely a genetic predisposition — while sociopaths tend to be made by their environment.”

James Fallon does not have antisocial personality disorder. I’ve seen him in a video saying that he is narcissistic so I’ll take his word on that. But if some people with antisocial personality are made, not born, seems likely that the same would apply to people with NPD.

So far as I know, though, there's not a clear difference in terms for people with NPD who may have psychopathic brains and those who may not.

I don't like being called a sociopath for several reasons, and that article summed up exactly why. I make a distinction between the terms "sociopath" and "psychopath" also. I know two sociopaths that are good friends of mine(though my definition of what a friend is, I am sure it is vastly different than the norm), they are very different than I am though we do all have some similar traits such as a blatant disregard for rules although I am a law abiding citizen. I engage in many antisocial antics, I just don't do anything illegal.

If you're going to start using words like that with me then just call me a psychopath, it's far more accurate. I am a product of nature. My environment was awful growing up, but as I've said in other posts around here the way I responded to my environment was highly atypical... Nothing "normal" about how I reacted to it all, I learned that as an adult. I saw the people who abused me as competition, I saw it all as a huge game... and yes, I won.

Originally Posted by marmaduke

IMO narcissists are likely born that way wired differently (a problem with the Amygdala?)
So I agree with Fallon.
My mother was NPD born that way. In her case she had not been abused as a child.
I have read loads, but in my experience PDs tend to be inherited.
Fallon is a psychopath all psychopaths are narcissists.
Antisocials I believe are likely made damaged by neglect and abuse lashing out at society.
You say your father did love, mostly himself.
Narcissists do love themselves, they usually also feel plenty of emotion buckets of that, loving attention and drama. But they do not feel empathy. It's all about them.
There are many variables so no absolutes.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

The man who crippled me was a malignant narcissist, sometimes reading about your mother I am reminded of him. He was born that way, from all that I could tell.

Calling me a psychopath is fair, and yes as I've said all psychopaths are narcissists but not all narcissists are psychopaths. However, while I do qualify technically for an ASPD diagnosis I do not do anything illegal these days though I was in and out of trouble as a child, teen, and young adult.

My mother's husband is a "fragile" narcissist, again born that way he has four other siblings that were also abused terribly and they're all neurotic and frankly ****ed up people. My mother's husband is happy as a clam, though his "woe is me" rants are... Interesting...

Narcissists feel plenty, the man who crippled me was most definitely a Narcissist but his emotions were clearly highly tempestuous. I think that his emotionality was ironically what made him so dangerous and why I'll be lucky if I can walk at all 20 years down the road... He was cruel, and highly explosive in the emotions department.

Originally Posted by marmaduke

The PD is genetic. Fallon is still a psychopath. Most psychopaths are not in prison.
All his family knew he was 'different' and he got into lots of trouble as a teen.
His excellent family life saved him from prison. He has lived the life of a psychopath.
I reckon Trump and sons are psychopaths. Disregard for others, ruthless, materialistic, make their own rules, greedy, trophy hunting muderers. No empathy going on there.

I have never said eviroment was not a factor.
Nature loads the gun, nuture pulls the trigger.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

I qualify as a psychopath according to the PCL-R and other such tests designed to identify psychopathic individuals. However, like most functional psychopaths as I call us, I am obviously not in prison nor have I ever been in prison.

I was always seen as "different", from the time I was a very young girl. No matter where I was people noticed I was different, even if they couldn't recognize exactly what the differences were. And I've always thought of myself as different.

I just didn't know what it meant to be a psychopath, like many, I had misconceptions about what that word meant and I thought that meant some serial killer on death row... I didn't know much about psychopathy until adulthood, and even though I have scored very high on any test I've been given(quite a few) that measures psychopathic traits I laughed it all off until repeated disasters in my personal life forced me to address the issue.

Originally Posted by marmaduke

Atypical.
Do you think a narcissist is capable of love?
And do you think therapy can help or 'cure' a pathological (not learnt traits) narcissist?
Has therapy helped you?

I know therapy would have done nothing for my mother.
NPD was her, just like her blue eyes or brown hair. A chat was gonna change none of those things.

My narcissistic possibly psychopathic sister mothers golden child (her mini me) used to tell me she 'felt nothing' that even if her daughters were out late she never worried. It puzzled her that apparently other people did worry.
We don't have any contact now she really is evil.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

I think on some level, yes a narcissist is capable of love... but I think that it is a selfish love, if a narcissist loves someone it tends to be because the narcissist sees that person as an extension of themselves.

Interesting question about if a pathological narcissist can benefit from therapy... I don't think born that way narcissists will benefit at all from therapy. All a born that way narcissist tends to do is go to therapy to appease their family and then argue with the therapist all day and insist there's nothing wrong with them and it's everyone else. I would know, my mother's husband did this and ranted about it frequently when he was in therapy.

As far as therapy helping me, it depends on what you call help. Like many have said about psychopaths, therapy has taught me how to be even more manipulative and so on. However, I have learned in therapy that it is okay to drop the mask around some, and I've also focused on learning practical things to do that keep my boredom at bay so I don't do anything too reckless. My therapist knows I cannot be altered as I was born this way and thankfully she's smart enough to be able to work with that, and she and I just focus on how to modify behaviors that can cause me to get into trouble in my interpersonal life. I was sick of certain patterns in my interpersonal life, so I've done the work to turn that around for myself.

Of course, none of this is at all altruistic. Lol. And I will fully admit that I like playing with my therapist sometimes because I find it entertaining and a therapist's office is a good way to learn more tricks on how to manipulate people to get what I want.

Unlike a narcissist I do not care if I am admired or hated, and I can be alone for weeks and not feel one pang of "loneliness"(whatever that is). I do not require attention nor do I particularly want it unless it's a part of my game for a very specific purpose... what I want is power and control over people and I have zero issues admitting that, again unlike a narcissist who will never admit that they're engaging in "bad" behavior.

[hazn]

oooo that's a good question... what do friends/friendships mean to you?

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by hazn

oooo that's a good question... what do friends/friendships mean to you?

It really depends on the person for me. For most, I use people that consider me a friend to be entertained, to have power and control over them. Friendships appease my boredom and I can feign empathy and other emotions fantastically well that no one is the wiser unless they're very smart. I've been found out before, and I hated being caught so I just cut my losses and moved on. However, I have run into sociopaths, psychopaths, and narcissists that have a different dynamic... I am friends with a psychopath for example, and I enjoy our intellectual discussions and also how this man challenges me. I find the thrill of playing mind games with another psychopath to be quite a lot of fun. I see interpersonal relations as a game, that is the honest truth... But I do tend to respect people and play with them less if they recognize me for who and what I am and don't shrink back in fear or just write me off as "evil".

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by here today

Maybe this will help. I am not disagreeing about your mother. You know her from a lifetime, I do not. I can understand how horrific it may feel to have a mother totally without empathy, which is what I understand that people with psychopathic brains can be like.

So I’m not saying that we disagree about your mother.

My mother is a particularly narcissistic psychopath herself(she's more narcissistic than me and that takes skill), I don't mind her as we have a mutual understanding about each other. Though I do like tripping her up when she's playing a game and she calls me a ***** and then we both just laugh, ha ha ha.

I can imagine though, that for a "normal" person, it would be hell having to deal with a mother like mine. I can see it from what marmaduke has said about her mother, what a horrible way to grow up.

[hazn]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

It really depends on the person for me. For most, I use people that consider me a friend to be entertained, to have power and control over them. Friendships appease my boredom and I can feign empathy and other emotions fantastically well that no one is the wiser unless they're very smart. I've been found out before, and I hated being caught so I just cut my losses and moved on. However, I have run into sociopaths, psychopaths, and narcissists that have a different dynamic... I am friends with a psychopath for example, and I enjoy our intellectual discussions and also how this man challenges me. I find the thrill of playing mind games with another psychopath to be quite a lot of fun. I see interpersonal relations as a game, that is the honest truth... But I do tend to respect people and play with them less if they recognize me for who and what I am and don't shrink back in fear or just write me off as "evil".

Interesting. Do you view male/female friends differently in this game? For example, would you exert as much effort on a female friend (assuming you're both straight)?

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by hazn

Interesting. Do you view male/female friends differently in this game? For example, would you exert as much effort on a female friend (assuming you're both straight)?

I don't think of people in terms of gender as far as friendships go, I just see people. Gender doesn't matter unless we're talking about a romantic partnership, then gender does matter. I am a gay woman, and totally out about it.

[hazn]

OK, so the control aspect of friendships apply to both males and females. Gotcha.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Yep, I don't discriminate! Ha ha ha!

[marmaduke]

Thanks Atypical
Very interesting.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by marmaduke

Thanks Atypical
Very interesting.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

You're welcome. What I find fascinating is how my narcissism is very different than those who have NPD...

[hazn]

I have a question... how would you describe your "mask"?

By the way, do you mind getting asked all these questions?