[color:blue]Forgiveness[/color] how does this work?

<font color="blue"> Those who have been here know me to be quite interested in semantics. I think often the topic of forgiveness arises, and sometimes it just doesn't fit with what it really is. Maybe there is a different word that fits better in some of the ideas of healing.

Forgive: to cease to feel resentment against on account of wrong committed. to give up claim to requital from or retribution upon (because of an offense or wrong)

I hear it often: forgive yourself. Why, if there is no reason to do so? What have you done wrong? Needing forgiveness says you did something wrong. As with intent to do so.

When someone has "done you wrong" (a My Fair Lady quote) you can choose to forgive. Or not.

If you actually did something "wrong" then surely forgive yourself. I just don't think it's that healthy to feel like you need forgiveness when you weren't trying to harm, when you were doing the best you could. (Later topics could be on "blame," "guilt," and "fault." Words I also think clarification would help us be gentler on ourselves.)

If the wrong done against you doesn't have a hold on your life and the memory of your perpetrator is mostly met with indifference, do you feel that I have forgiven her? I'm not sure whether I have or not because I still get angry every once in a great while.

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<font color="blue"> Those who have been here know me to be quite interested in semantics. I think often the topic of forgiveness arises, and sometimes it just doesn't fit with what it really is. Maybe there is a different word that fits better in some of the ideas of healing.

Forgive: to cease to feel resentment against on account of wrong committed. to give up claim to requital from or retribution upon (because of an offense or wrong)

I hear it often: forgive yourself. Why, if there is no reason to do so? What have you done wrong? Needing forgiveness says you did something wrong. As with intent to do so.

When someone has "done you wrong" (a My Fair Lady quote) you can choose to forgive. Or not.

If you actually did something "wrong" then surely forgive yourself. I just don't think it's that healthy to feel like you need forgiveness when you weren't trying to harm, when you were doing the best you could. (Later topics could be on "blame," "guilt," and "fault." Words I also think clarification would help us be gentler on ourselves.)

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i love this thread

some random thoughts . . . (i don't know which i agree with, just typing stuff)

saying "forgive yourself"
* maybe it's the lazy, short-cut approach to "helping" someone get over the past.
* maybe all guilt/shame feelings are ego-centric, and a person needs to be told to "forgive yourself"
* maybe it originates from a religious aspect . . . all are sinners


"A" not "I" . . . "I" not "O" (another MY FAIR LADY QUOTE)

maybe at that point you're protecting yourself... forgiveness ...the dictionary says ... when you cease to feel resentment...

there's something else in my brain about this.... that I learned... I may not be recalling it accurately though but it implied that giving forgiveness implies the person asked for it... I'm too melted to think further for a while.

Ummm... "forgive yourself"... how about a person who has committed murder and feels remorse

how about a parent who backed out of the driveway without looking and ran over their own child

how about me when I think I could have done more for my mother the three months that she was ill before she died

"Just you wait, 'enry 'iggins, just you wait!"

"Move your bloody arse!!"

"Why can't a woman think more like a man?"

"Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?"

Nah! I'm not a fan. LOL

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<font color="blue"> I just don't think it's that healthy to feel like you need forgiveness when you weren't trying to harm, when you were doing the best you could.

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most people confuse GUILT and SHAME.

"Guilt says I've done something wrong; shame says there is something wrong with me." Bradshaw (1988)

does it help a person with shame to be told "forgive yourself?"

_Sky . . . i think you have a good point. for me, i need to be told over and over "it wasn't your fault."

Sky, I think maybe the issue is what you define as wrong. For example, during the depths of my depression, I neglected my friends and family, which caused them pain. To cause another person pain is wrong. Now one way to look at it is, this was due to the illness, so it should not be looked at as a wrong committed. The other way to look at it is, it was wrong, but because it was done as a result of the illness, then I should forgive myself for it. Which interpretation really helps the most probably depends on the person.

Another possibility is that the wrongs we need to forgive ourselves for are those that we have done to ourselves. Many of us turn our feelings in, and either actively or passively harm ourselves. I know in my case, I need to forgive myself for the damage I have done to my own body.

Those are a couple of things off the top of my head.

Hi Sky-- hope you're feeling better today.

I've been thinking about this post and have some things to ponder with you and everyone.
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Forgive: to cease to feel resentment against on account of wrong committed. to give up claim to requital from or retribution upon (because of an offense or wrong)

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So forgiveness relieves one of resentment- from a wrong committed---- however-- it doesn't say- an "intentional" wrong. I believe that forgiveness comes from the heart-- when a person really cares for another or for themself.

To me it's not the question of intent-- it's the fact that someone IS hurt. For example: Say I hurt someone by saying something that causes them mental anguish-- I didn't intend to hurt them-- so does that give me a free ride to continue and never learn from others? Or I could try to understand how they felt and explain that I was coming from a different thought process and ask their forgiveness-- because I care about that person's feeling of pain.

I understand one can not please everyone and there will, at times- be people left behind with hurt feelings. However, I do think that forgiving and asking for forgiveness is all part of any kind of relationship. Just because you ask for forgiveness- doesn't have to mean you were WRONG-- couldn't it also mean that you are saying to the other person " I hear you and care that you are hurting, and I feel bad that you are hurt- for whatever reason- intentional or not " ?

Seems to me being able to ask for forgiveness when the hurt was unintentional is saying " I'm not perfect, I make mistakes too- and unintentional hurt is still hurt- sorry you are hurting- I care". Shouldn't we all be responsible for ourselves when we hurt someone?? Even if it's not intentional?? Are we so great that we should be automatically forgiven when we hurt someone unintentionally- no sharing of compassionate words necessary? I don't know-- sounds kind of " heart-less" to me.

I hope I haven't offended anyone-- that is surely not my intent. This is a very good topic for thought.

Wishing all peace and kindness,
Mandy

You are all dancing around on the very issue I hoped you would find:

When we are not seeking to do harm, when we are doing the best we can, when forces outside our control cause a result that isn't so positive... there is no forgiveness necessary.

We don't have to ask for forgiveness when we didn't control or weren't responsible for the force that happened. Sometimes the cultural mandate implies that, regardless of the intent, responsibility will be applied.

Life happens. Could it be that mental unwellness is made worse because of the taking on of a burden that isn't "ours?"

You don't have to ask for forgiveness over things that you aren't in control of... we all know someone that apologizes for every little thing... I'm sorry. I'm sorry. . . when no apology is called for.... likewise forgiveness is not necessary when no ill will was created.

Ok- so let me get this straight... If I come from an abusive childhood and as an adult not knowing any better chose a partner that treats me the same as my upbringing.... then because of all this dysfunction... I numb myself with alcohol then find myself behind the wheel where I go off the road into a child- who doesn't survive- then I'm exempt from any need to ask for forgiveness because I couldn't help it?? I didn't "intentionally" hurt anyone so I don't need to ask for forgiveness!! " LIfe just happens" -- sounds kind of arrogant don't you think?? What about the parents left behind without their child--- don't think they would see it that way. ( this example is fictional- BTW)

What about the parent that abuses because they were in-turn abused? Looking at what we've done wrong be it intentional or not--- helps us to grow emotionally!

Validating others pain whether the hurt was intentional or not is a very compassionate thing to do- we usually validate them by asking for forgivenenss. I think this also applies to one's self!! Forgiving oneself it just as important as forgiving others-- I believe.

Sky, seems like there is a fine line here- between when to need/ask for forgiveness and when not. It's seems kind of blurry to me!! Confusing! My head is spinning! Think I'll stop and gather myself..........

Mandy

Ok. I hear you. However the analogy isn't quite right because to drive drunk is against the law, so you did intentionally do something wrong.

You're right about a fine line, and I like those suppositions.

But there are plenty of times that are not near the fine line, that we automatically put ourselves into, thinking we need forgiveness.

I wasn't discussing the compassionate thing here... but addressing the person's self esteem issue about not needing to always ask forgiveness. When the process of life doesn't impy your wrong-doing, yet you take it upon yourself to find fault with yourself and then apologize???

The book The Abuse Excuse by Alan Dershowitz talks to the subject you brought up... very interesting. IMO, if someone was abused and didn't realize this, or how that upbringing affected their behavior, they have no reason to apologize (no reason for "forgiveness.") Once they realize the issues at hand though, and continue purposely, then they are wrong... the fine line on this is about "knowing" while doing.

Trauma can cause someone to not know at the time of the doing. Take the soldier... back from the front... why would you blame him for a trigger reaction obviously not in his control? I wouldn't. So if I wouldn't blame him, then I also would see no reason for his needing "forgiveness."

Sky, your brain amazes me! I can't even start to sort this out without prompting, your prompting. I have trouble with forgiveness. I can't seem to get to that space. as for me, I forgive myself as I know I try to do well and make the world a better place. I can't scroll up right now to see your original post. I do not let go of the feelings of hurt for what was done to me. The reason is simple, they have acknowledged no wrong and have scapegoated me. I wish my mind worked better right now as I think this is an excellent thread and would love to know how to speak to each sentence you wrote. There is a difference though I want to mention, eventhough I can't find forgiveness inside, I wish these people no ill as I understand they were/are messed up and life is hard and no one deserves ill wished upon them. Man sky, you struck a chord here huh?

Thanks ww. Yes, the difference between extending forgiveness, and refraining from retributive tendencies. That's still another avenue.

My main idea is this: do not take blame for blameless occurrences.

Do not ascribe blame where no blame is due.

Do not attribute fault where there is no fault.

Don't struggle with forgiveness where forgiveness is unnecessary.

Semantics, yes.... accurate definitions of words. We can struggle because of societal ignorance.

Be well.