[little*rhino]

i don't know if this belongs in here or general, but it seemed more like a mental health question so i am posting it here. i suppose the basic question can apply to many things though...

i've had this discussion with a number of people on PC lately and i think it is an important question..

Do you want to get better?

Silly, right? Of course you do, right? Maybe not. Maybe there are deeper questions you might want to ask yourself about what your real goals and motivations are... you might be surprised.

Like with many things, many of us want the world to shift to fix our problem and not shift ourselves instead. All the various diets and get rich quick schemes are testiment to this idea... we want to keep doing everything exactly the same way but get a different result. A friend of mine works for a weight loss company and she says that most of the clients really want to keep eating fries, pop, chocolate, etc., but have the pounds melt away. We want life to conform... and life refuses.. oddly.

In watching people everyday, and in listening/reading online, here's my own little pet theory statement:

"Make my past into something different than it was. Make my present different than it is. Take control and responsibility for my future because I can't."

It sounds ridiculous... but ask yourself if that is anywhere near what you really are saying. Especially telling is those last two words - I can't. If you hear them in there anywhere my guess is you are living at least part of that statement.

It took me a long time to realize that no one could make my past be different than it was. It wasn't something i was consciously thinking but in the end, it's what i wanted. i wanted someone to step into my past and stop the things that happened, fix the things that weren't ok, give me things i didn't get... and so on. It was like cold water in my veins to suddenly grasp that this, of course, could never happen. It was what it was and cannot be changed. No matter how much that little girl cries for someone, no one is coming... that time doesn't exist anymore. The only thing i can do is learn how to comfort her myself... and look forward, not backward.

It's a tough thing to do if you have pain in your history, which we ALL do regardless of how great a childhood you may have had. Remember, these notions of someone fixing things are notions formed in the mind of a child, right? We've just kept the fairytale alive... sort of like believing in the toothfairy @ 40.

i've discovered an interesting temptation and paradox in both therapy and online, the only difference is that in therapy at least you have someone with an unbiased devotion to your best interests who *should* step in and help you out of this problem. When we begin to open up and try to share our issues we find recognition and validation... with a T and/or online. We find common ground, we find we are not alone in whatever flavour of pain we are in. Sounds great. We find a small stream of nurturing that feels a lot like discovering water in the desert... but this is probably a greater challenge to your well-being than the decision to seek help at all.

The biggest hurdle i see to people getting better is attention. i don't mean this in a bad way... i am deliberately omitting the drama-queens/kings. Forget them for a minute because they are not the majority. i'm talking about that sweet feeling that comes from someone really getting where you are coming from and how you feel. i'm talking about the attention of being heard. Make more sense?

Most people, or so i believe, spend a certain amount of time seeking this validation... to whatever extent. The trouble is that there is an unlimited supply online... and if one has a not-so-sharp therapist, one can go around the merry-go-round of therapy for eons without improvement. This isn't to say that long term therapy is somehow unrpoductive, far from it. i'm referring to the constant ebb and flow of the "poor me-poor you" scenario.

Bless us, we want to help others... we want to support them and let them feel less alone. It's admirable that we do... it shows there is a goodness in most hearts. We shouldn't do otherwise really. It becomes the responsibility of the seeker to actually seek wellness... to take some control of their own destiny and not just try to survive on that small stream of nurturing from online or a therapist. Otherwise we become emotionally crippled and stunted... preferring to barely survive than to thrive.

It's harder than it sounds. My T is a fabulous human being who cares deeply about the people he helps. The caring he has shown me has been healing, very much so, but i see the lure of it as well. i so badly want him to care enough to make up for all those who did not. i want him to step in everytime and give me what i need, just like he has done in the worst times... i want that, but i had to decide that being rescued isn't the same as getting better. i have needed rescue because i didn't have the skills to help msyelf... and i am sure that in this journey there will be other rivers that are too swift for me and i will need him in that way, but... and this is important... i simply have to choose to try to gather those skills so that i don't fall in as often or can swim to shore when i do.

i see it most online, because i don't have the opportunity to know many therapy clients and their stories IRL. i see people actively keeping themselves sick... i had trouble grasping it, but i'm sure we've all seen it and most of us have done it even in some small way. Think hard about it... ever said you felt terrible when asked, even if things weren't as bad as they have been? i've seen people openly talking about how they won't talk to their therapist or are doing X,Y or Z in the hospital to circumvent what they are being told to do. i'm not referring to trust issues with a therapist, it takes time to be able to be open and share... i am referring to people who are perfectly able to say what they need to but are choosing not to because they are deliberately opposing the therapist. That one hit me like a 2x4 in the face... i didn't get it at first. What could possibly justify that? Attention. If someone opens up, moves forward and gets better... maybe the T won't care, maybe no one will listen, maybe no one will care again.

see the point?

We, and i mean everyone, worries about being cared about. It's a basic need. We all want/need to be heard at least some of the time as well. That small stream seems more certain and alluring than the risk of going hungry and never knowing when you'll find emotional food again. The solution? Stay sick. Stay stuck and miserable and there will be a limitless supply of poor-you, poor-me. Sounds bizarre, but it's not hard to find it.

i need to get better and to do that i have to decide that my wellbeing is my job and no one else's. He is there to guide me, just like people are online with whom to share and support, but i need to learn to give myself what i need in as many scenarios as possible. It doesn't mean i don't or won't need people, it just means i can stand on my own more.

So.. ask yourself: do i want to get better? Do i have some big idea as to why i simply cannot possibly make it? i'd sincerely recommend that you question the latter if you find you do indeed have some sort of reason why you cannot ever be ok.

And... just to ease minds, NO - i am not thinking of any specific person. NO i am not being critical or judgemental. i can name dozens of people and i'd have to list my own self among them at least on occasion. After all, we ALL wallow from time to time. We all sit down in the dirt and feel like we can't move and want someone to move for us. We all do... but, what are you going to do about it?

That's the $64, 000 question - right?

peace

[WePow]

Very well stated, Little Rhino. As a good ret Pdoc friend of mine said recently:

"Psychotherapy earnestly undertaken is hell. The only thing worse is not engaging in it."

:-)

[paddym22]

Excellent Rhino, I wish more people would take a leaf out of your book, very well put

HUgs

Paddy

[loveregardless]

....

and do you BELIEVE that you DESERVE it?

[dyzan]

lil*,
(stands and applauds)

The self-awareness, the realization of "past is past", taking from T sessions the tools that have been provided for a deeper understanding of self. Including the (from what I got from your writtings), the desire/strength, to do my best to understand my own quirks. And not let them continue to hold my feet in the mud.

IMO, understanding and growth are the things that make us conscience of the fact "we can/are, getting better".

dyzan.
~waves~

i see it most online, because i don't have the opportunity to know many therapy clients and their stories IRL. i see people actively keeping themselves sick... i had trouble grasping it, but i'm sure we've all seen it and most of us have done it even in some small way. Think hard about it... ever said you felt terrible when asked, even if things weren't as bad as they have been? i've seen people openly talking about how they won't talk to their therapist or are doing X,Y or Z in the hospital to circumvent what they are being told to do. i'm not referring to trust issues with a therapist, it takes time to be able to be open and share... i am referring to people who are perfectly able to say what they need to but are choosing not to because they are deliberately opposing the therapist. That one hit me like a 2x4 in the face... i didn't get it at first. What could possibly justify that? Attention. If someone opens up, moves forward and gets better... maybe the T won't care, maybe no one will listen, maybe no one will care again.

My first reaction was how cynical. My second reaction was how do snippets of anecdotal evidence support the premise? To postulate it is the regular practice of many to sabotage their recovery so others will continue to cater to their need for attention is profoundly skeptical. Frankly, I am reminded of the innumerable times I have been told to get over it and move on.

That said, I am not so naive as to think the hypothesis has no merit. A question I have talked about before is at what point is someone healed or deemed to have recovered? The manifestations of the illness may no longer be present but is the person capable of assuming sole responsibility for his/her own well-being?

When I am having difficulties, I go back to this article from the Mayo Clinic Depression blog: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/dep...atment/MY00751 I try to be very objective when reviewing the questions. Can I do better? Yes. The reason I am not always in 100% compliance, however, is not because I seek attention.

In my case, I have been told I have a personality not conducive to therapy and the medications I take may have no greater efficacy than a placebo. My psychiatrist agrees that my level of functioning is my sole responsibility, as it should be.

While I find much to disagree with, I thank you, little*rhino, for your post.

[DivideByZero]

Very well written, this is an important message. Thank you rhino. In fact I think for some dx it is of critical importance to come to this awareness.

It is also very important to discover what the triggers for this need for a certain kind of validation are (this can be very difficult). For me there is a certain comfort in mild depression and angst, and in being the victim or having a sad story. Or in some cases at least having those traumatizing events in my life acknowledged by another compassionate human. Mild depression and playing the victim is safe and known. Striving to get better and committing to life(which means letting go of suicide) and striving for success is far more difficult.

That being said I think it is important to be careful about generalizations on mental health and note that some issues do require a great deal of work/medication compared to others and it is easy for me at least to fall into the trap of thinking that my experience is similar to the experience of others (when there is no way to know that). I guess there is also a chance that a certain demography/spectrum of illness has more ability/inclination to be online in a chat room and discuss their issues. But I do think the aforementioned caveat is an important one.

It is also easy for me to forget that it took me a long time to get to the awareness that I have now, I find it helpful to remember the points in my life where I had other levels of awareness so that I can show compassion to people that are currently at those stages.

My 2 cents? (understand that I am often a hypocrite but I am trying to recover like all of you ) Love yourself and others, be patient and kind and realize that you only have one chance to perceive this universe.

Work hard to stack your odds in favor of a path that will make you feel the emotions that you want to feel, and the life experience that you want to experience.

When we live a certain way we build up a large number of contexts and consequences for that life, the longer that we live that way the more complex our situation becomes. If we want change we need to be ready to exert an effort to rebuild a new set of contexts for a new life. I see this effort analogous to pushing a stone over a hill. It requires a constant effort to get to the apex and if do not exert effort at any point during this uphill struggle there is a chance that we may slide back down to a lower point. However, at some point in time if we push on and work hard and make enough changes we reach the peak and the effort required to push the rock to the other side gets easier and easier until we have succeeded in our goal. Remember that change rarely comes without effort.

Thanks for the post little*rhino

[Perna]

I was reading a blog today about binge eating and how that's being included in the next DSM and loved this paragraph I think is germane:

"It will be great if including this new diagnosis of Binge Eating in the DSM prompts more awareness and more research to improve our understanding of this very real problem, and also gets insurance companies to support treatment. But we all need to remember that no person is just a diagnosis, and that no diagnosis provides a complete explanation for why people do what they do. No one binge eats because they fit the diagnostic criteria for "binge eating disorder." We do it for our own reasons, and those can be identified and changed. And we all have strengths and capacities we can draw on, with the right encouragement and support, to understand our problems, learn how to handle them better, and make choices that will help us feel capable and empowered. Sometimes, calling something a "mental disorder" can make it easy to forget those basic facts."

From: http://www.dailyspark.com/blog.asp?p...ental_disorder

Wow. Great post. I agree.

[lynn P.]

This is very interesting ((Little Rhino)).

[darkrunner]

Hi Little Rhino,
You said,

NO i am not being critical or judgemental.

I don't think your post came off as critical or judgement. Maybe a bit simplistic, and as if you're attempting to make blanket statements and making giant assumptions about others' feeling / behaviors.

We all do... but, what are you going to do about it?

Going to therapy is hard work, taking medication is no fun, and functioning in daily life is 'doing something about it'. ALL of the people I've ever come across here on PC does at least one of these things.

i am referring to people who are perfectly able to say what they need to but are choosing not to because they are deliberately opposing the therapist. That one hit me like a 2x4 in the face... i didn't get it at first. What could possibly justify that? Attention. If someone opens up, moves forward and gets better... maybe the T won't care, maybe no one will listen, maybe no one will care again.

Not saying you're wrong here - this may be true for some people. You seem to be implying that it is the case for everyone. I don't think you can possibly know this is how anyone feels. There may be lots of reasons for chossing not to say something to a therapist. So I'm not sure why you've had a revelation by suddenly thinking it to get attention. To me, this does not seem like a likely reason at all. Maybe this was the case for you, at some point? Doesn't mean it is so for anyone else though.

That small stream seems more certain and alluring than the risk of going hungry and never knowing when you'll find emotional food again. The solution? Stay sick. Stay stuck and miserable and there will be a limitless supply of poor-you, poor-me. Sounds bizarre, but it's not hard to find it.

I've run into many many people here that do not sound like they have any compassion or support in their lives at all. I know for me, at times I've felt all alone only to come to PC and found that there are others who have the same situations and feelings as I have. There is something tremendously encouraging about knowing I am not alone, that others are struggling as well. And being certain that *they* are strong enough to get through it makes me thinkg that maybe I am strong enough too. Maybe it seems like wallowing, but I think that's how support and encouragement works.

So.. ask yourself: do i want to get better? Do i have some big idea as to why i simply cannot possibly make it? i'd sincerely recommend that you question the latter if you find you do indeed have some sort of reason why you cannot ever be ok.

This sounds very 'black and white' to me. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, one or the other. Mixed feelings are ok. Do I want to get better? yes. Do I think I cannot? Sometimes.
Sometimes I am ambivalent, meaning I feel strongly towards both extremes at the same time.
Sometimes it comes in waves - one or the other. I think that is the ebb and flow of healing and recovering. One step forward, two steps back. And sometimes a big progress, or a big backslide.

I think it's a good question you're putting out there, Little Rhino.
I guess perhaps it would be better approached if it was from your own experience, rather than making assumptions and mind-reading what others are experiencing, and making sweeping generalizations.

[loveregardless]

I've often used the metaphor of climbing a mountain in my own journey towards mental health and happiness. Sometimes I need help on my climb, sometimes I need to sit and take a break, taking everything in where I am, RECOGNIZING and ACCEPTING where I am, sometimes I need to say to others, please slow down I can't go that fast, and voice my needs to those climbing around me, and sometimes I can stand strong and climb all on my own.

But no one can drag me, or anyone else, I've got to want to climb it for myself, and KNOW that I CAN MAKE IT, and I deserve it. Even if I spend my whole life climbing, reaching for the top... and I will.

The journey has no ending, that's I think the hard part for a lot of people.... the journey is the climb. And not necessarily the view from the top, but for all the views at all the places we will reach along the way. For all the insights. For every piece of the journey that is our life. For every hand that reaches for ours and every hand that we extend for others. For every time we scrape our knee and still keep going. It's ok to look down and go HOLY ****, I can't believe I made it soo far after everything that's happened and everything I've been through, how am I able to keep standing at all? It's ok to know how far you've come.

You gotta believe it. You are HERE. And every time that sun rises, it's for YOU.

So my question would be, DO YOU KNOW YOU DESERVE IT? DO YOU BELIEVE YOU ARE WORTH IT? WORTH THE SELF LOVE? WORTH THE FIGHT?

Climbing a mountain is never easy, and it's never going to be. But of all things in life that are WORTH IT, YOU are SO WORTH IT.

[little*rhino]

i think perhaps you misunderstand my meaning in the word "attention." i do not mean those extraordinary bemoaning, fainting-couch types... and i do not, in any way, mean to suggest that being stuck or seeking support is done for attention seeking in the common use of the phrase. It's a little more larger-picture than that and meant in a sort of spirit of firm empathy.

there isn't any cynicism in it unless one puts it there through one's own processes

the idea i am raising is about how sweet that validation and recognition are to a hungry spirit... and if i had left out the word "attention" perhaps that would confuse less... maybe not.

A person starved or malnurished emotionally and psychologically, to whatever major or minor extent, will perpetually seek that "food" - ie validation or truthfully, attention. It isn't a flaw, it's a natural thing to do. We will continue over our lifetimes to seek those things we did not receive and that is my caution - to take control of it and break that pattern in order to be free.

i can pose another question to illustrate... have you ever wanted to have someone say something to you, to give you something emotionally, only to find that receiving it gave no relief or only temporary relief? People seeking affection (attention has many flavours that aren't the same as the immediate negative connotation) often just can't get enough.... it falls into a void. Having someone say they care doesn't fill the abyss of "no one cares," no matter how many times someone says it. The void returns.

It isn't meant to cast a shadow... it's meant to shine a light... share the possibility of just picking up one's own flashlight instead of perpetually fumbling in the darkness hoping someone else will turn on a light switch.

If you feel you don't fit the category, that's fine as well. If you have your flashlight or are actively seeking it, then many blessings and congratulations sincerely meant.

It was/is a question... to question one's own motives in what one does or does not do in helping themselves. No more, no less.

Originally Posted by TheByzantine

My first reaction was how cynical. My second reaction was how do snippets of anecdotal evidence support the premise? To postulate it is the regular practice of many to sabotage their recovery so others will continue to cater to their need for attention is profoundly skeptical. Frankly, I am reminded of the innumerable times I have been told to get over it and move on.

That said, I am not so naive as to think the hypothesis has no merit. A question I have talked about before is at what point is someone healed or deemed to have recovered? The manifestations of the illness may no longer be present but is the person capable of assuming sole responsibility for his/her own well-being?

When I am having difficulties, I go back to this article from the Mayo Clinic Depression blog: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/dep...atment/MY00751 I try to be very objective when reviewing the questions. Can I do better? Yes. The reason I am not always in 100% compliance, however, is not because I seek attention.

In my case, I have been told I have a personality not conducive to therapy and the medications I take may have no greater efficacy than a placebo. My psychiatrist agrees that my level of functioning is my sole responsibility, as it should be.

While I find much to disagree with, I thank you, little*rhino, for your post.

[DivideByZero]

I am interested to know what happens if the answer to that question is a sincere yes? Then what? What other questions are important? What other skills? How does one know that they are on the correct path to "recovery"?

I am a bit miffed that you think I am incapable of understanding what you wrote. I do not intend to respond further, other than to say I completely stand by what I said.

[loveregardless]

Zero, I would say, if the answer is a sincere yes, then the questioning is only beginning. Then every question imaginable followed by every possible answer from ever perspective you can reach to will arise. Then you know, good god I've got a lot of work to do and it's wayyy more than I can handle right NOW, so right NOW I'm going to try and just be HERE.

Just as in all other aspects of life, I do not believe that there is one right path to recovery. Our lives are filled with paths and turns and twists, and some spin us in circles, and sometimes we think we've only gone backwards, and other times we may find magic short cuts and think YESSSS, now we're getting somewhere.

But the truth is you are already on your way. It's ok to feel lost. It's ok to feel like you know where you're going. Whatever is is, no matter how great it is or no matter how much it sucks. IT IS OK. Just be THERE for a minute, otherwise you can't get your footing enough to even begin to take another step forward or make any decisions about where to go next.

Too often, and I'm a great example here, we just want to get there. Running full force. We rather scratch and tear and bleed our way there instead of taking a few more deep breathes and trying to allow ourselves a bit more time and patience. And sometimes, that's ok, too. But just like a cheetah can't go too long without resting or his brain will literally overheat and burn out, neither can we. But it does feel good to run like the wind sometimes. And one way or another, life will MAKE you SLOW DOWN. For your own good, whether you realize it or not.

You are here, and you are asking. You are reaching out your hand and we are here to reach for yours. That is where you are at now. You're path is already in motion. You are making the climb. Everything else will come when you're ready for it.

[loveregardless]

PLEASE let us all remember, that WORDS are the least effective means of communication in life, yet, they are the best that we can manage here in the forums and often in person. They are just words. Unfortunately they will never quite convey exactly what it is we mean to say or how we feel. But I believe we all do the best that we can here because we are trying to share that insight and experience with others on this "path", and explain our own POV, which is decidedly non-verbal.

If we could all just telepathically communicate it would be sooo much easier.

[little*rhino]

see my notes in bold...

Originally Posted by darkrunner

Hi Little Rhino,
You said,

I don't think your post came off as critical or judgement. Maybe a bit simplistic, and as if you're attempting to make blanket statements and making giant assumptions about others' feeling / behaviors.

Nope. Not making blanket statements because i qualify my audience as behaving in a specific way... with the exception of a few statements about the very normal behaviours/desires of human beings in general. It's a fair blanket statement to say people do seek attention because people do... it isn't an automatic negative, not in form or function. It IS a problem if one's desire for validation becomes more motivating than the end goal however.

i am not making assumptions about all feelings or all behaviours. Just observations gathered from the years online and conversations and experiences. i never say it applies to everyone... just ask the question... and describe how some behave.

if not received as critical... then how is it you have chosen to accuse me of "mind-reading" etc? Perhaps your own wording is more harsh than you realize. i took special care to state my intentions.


Going to therapy is hard work, taking medication is no fun, and functioning in daily life is 'doing something about it'. ALL of the people I've ever come across here on PC does at least one of these things.

Then you need to visit chat more. i've been a member here, under two accounts at different times for three years now. There are a significant number of people who cannot or do not engage in either of those things. It isn't really relevant to the question asked. My question was about whether one actually does work toward or against getting better. Watch long enough and you will see the ebb and flow of many... not those just stuck here and there, god knows everyone gets stuck from time to time and everyone needs help, attention and validation from time to time... the many i am addressing are those who actively work counter to their supposed goal. If a person is in therapy and works against themselves deliberately, then one has to question why... or one should. That is more the point.

Not saying you're wrong here - this may be true for some people. You seem to be implying that it is the case for everyone. I don't think you can possibly know this is how anyone feels. There may be lots of reasons for chossing not to say something to a therapist. So I'm not sure why you've had a revelation by suddenly thinking it to get attention. To me, this does not seem like a likely reason at all. Maybe this was the case for you, at some point? Doesn't mean it is so for anyone else though.

I don't anywhere say that everyone is deliberately doing this, consciously or otherwise. I don't imply that is the case for everyone, that is applied by the reader if they choose to interpret my words that way. Understanding basic psychology, early childhood development and behaviour science isn't some mystic religion. It's out there to read and the behaviours are there to observe. i'm stating what i see and i stand by it. No one can entirely know how anyone feels, not even a therapist - yet, i do believe people do recognize common motivations, feelings and behaviours. If it were pointless to say, then there wouldn't be any therapists either. i do not claim to be one, but it doesn't mean i don't have insight into behaviour.

There are many reasons why someone would choose not to tell something to a therapist... and if you read what i said, i say i am not referring to that sort of thing. i say i am not referring to trust issues, etc. i am referring to deliberately withholding for withholding's sake.

If you want to take issue with my words, at least use what i say and not what i don't.

i didn't have a "revelation" - dear god, i don't know if you intend this but there is hardly need for an accusatory tone. The spirit of what i am saying is to question one's self and that shouldn't provoke a person. If someone repeatedly seeks external validation and avoids the tasks that may help resolve issues in the end - how can it be wrong or somehow so distasteful to ask people to question themselves and describe what i see....

what i say about behaviour isn't exactly as if a stone tablet descended from heaven... start reading about early development and the formation of personality. Pay special attention to the subject of the differentiation of self vs. other in the age at which a child begins to explore the world beyond the safety of the mother-figure.

whether one chooses to agree with me or not is up to that person. It matters not to me in the end. i'm a firm believer in individual choice and reasoning. i would appreciate it though if the wording of such disagreement with my ideas was not phrased in such a fashion.

I'm smiling because OF COURSE it also applies to me! That's not hidden. Notice the "also" and notice i am actually asking myself many questions and the point was to do exactly that. What motivates a person... are their actions really meant to improve things, or are they clinging to staying unwell for whatever individual reasons they might have? Ask any therapist you care to and i would wager you won't find any practicing therapist who has never met someone who works harder at staying put than at getting better.


I've run into many many people here that do not sound like they have any compassion or support in their lives at all. I know for me, at times I've felt all alone only to come to PC and found that there are others who have the same situations and feelings as I have. There is something tremendously encouraging about knowing I am not alone, that others are struggling as well. And being certain that *they* are strong enough to get through it makes me thinkg that maybe I am strong enough too. Maybe it seems like wallowing, but I think that's how support and encouragement works.

Naturally. That is in what i say... not once do i say that wallowing or being stuck is somehow wrong. It is absolutely true that many, i'd dare say most, people here have had little to no support and many have suffered miserably through terrible experiences. That's what creates the temptation... and if one does not become aware of that aspect of motivation, that seeking of validation repeatedly and specifically externally, then one can't really stop doing it. If you personally don't ever do any of what i say, then it shouldn't be an issue.

Validation and recognition are essential to growth and wellbeing. 100% essential. My point is that it can stop functioning in that capacity and become a sort of trap if one never questions one's self. Getting support isn't the issue in my post.


This sounds very 'black and white' to me. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, one or the other. Mixed feelings are ok. Do I want to get better? yes. Do I think I cannot? Sometimes.
Sometimes I am ambivalent, meaning I feel strongly towards both extremes at the same time.
Sometimes it comes in waves - one or the other. I think that is the ebb and flow of healing and recovering. One step forward, two steps back. And sometimes a big progress, or a big backslide.

I think it's a good question you're putting out there, Little Rhino.
I guess perhaps it would be better approached if it was from your own experience, rather than making assumptions and mind-reading what others are experiencing, and making sweeping generalizations.

i stand by it without doubt. i do realize that the automatic perception of the word attention will trigger assumptions but i have no desire to attempt to sway how people filter what they read. i don't mind read and basic behaviour doesn't require it.

it is what it is, it is what i see... take it or toss it as you choose

[little*rhino]

Originally Posted by WePow

Very well stated, Little Rhino. As a good ret Pdoc friend of mine said recently:

"Psychotherapy earnestly undertaken is hell. The only thing worse is not engaging in it."

:-)

OMG - yes! Point exactly... engage or ask one's self why one does not.

[xXWhyXx]

Wow! Great post, rhino. It really did mean a lot to me.. :*)

[little*rhino]

very nicely said - about deserving it... very nice.

The tough part about putting out something controvertial... something that will sting a few, is that is sounds harsh... but it's like my T said once, it's like taking a kid for a vaccination and you know you have to but you don't want them to cry.

i'll take a few slings and arrows if it means one person sees themselves in what i have thrown out there.

In the very heart of the questions and observations i have asked/stated is that desire to get people up off their hiney if they have chosen to remain seated.

Originally Posted by loveregardless

I've often used the metaphor of climbing a mountain in my own journey towards mental health and happiness. Sometimes I need help on my climb, sometimes I need to sit and take a break, taking everything in where I am, RECOGNIZING and ACCEPTING where I am, sometimes I need to say to others, please slow down I can't go that fast, and voice my needs to those climbing around me, and sometimes I can stand strong and climb all on my own.

But no one can drag me, or anyone else, I've got to want to climb it for myself, and KNOW that I CAN MAKE IT, and I deserve it. Even if I spend my whole life climbing, reaching for the top... and I will.

The journey has no ending, that's I think the hard part for a lot of people.... the journey is the climb. And not necessarily the view from the top, but for all the views at all the places we will reach along the way. For all the insights. For every piece of the journey that is our life. For every hand that reaches for ours and every hand that we extend for others. For every time we scrape our knee and still keep going. It's ok to look down and go HOLY ****, I can't believe I made it soo far after everything that's happened and everything I've been through, how am I able to keep standing at all? It's ok to know how far you've come.

You gotta believe it. You are HERE. And every time that sun rises, it's for YOU.

So my question would be, DO YOU KNOW YOU DESERVE IT? DO YOU BELIEVE YOU ARE WORTH IT? WORTH THE SELF LOVE? WORTH THE FIGHT?

Climbing a mountain is never easy, and it's never going to be. But of all things in life that are WORTH IT, YOU are SO WORTH IT.

[little*rhino]

*sigh... sugar, i don't say incapable.. i say perhaps you misundertand. Jeepers. It's a discussion and i responded, i'm sorry you take what i am saying that way because i was only trying to clairfy... the word attention does have a connotation that really goes off in a different direction, even though related, and so i wanted to be more clear.

i would think that if i had meant to call you incapable.. i would have said that instead. i'm not known for hiding my intentions.

i'm sorry you feel hurt or angry, that wasn't anywhere in my intentions

Originally Posted by TheByzantine

I am a bit miffed that you think I am incapable of understanding what you wrote. I do not intend to respond further, other than to say I completely stand by what I said.

[little*rhino]

my dear, sweet cozzy... loveregardless has much wisdom into this, and she's right.

the paradox of my questions is that if you can sincerely say "yes" then you aren't doing it anymore To further what wepow said... even worse is to be engaged in a sort of "anti-therapy."

this is your journey, not mine or anyone else.. but there are common points... how you address your own method of undoing your recovery would be very individual indeed. And, there isn't a correct path.... but there is a path in the first place, the problem is not walking it but sitting down, refusing to move, claiming one is entirely incapable of moving even as they refuse to try to move. If you are even looking at the path itself and not just your motionless feet... then you are moving and you are on your path. Make sense?

there are tons of questions... there are always questions

learning trust is so hard... i've spoken to dozens and dozens of people about that reflex of worrying about the T's motives... making assumptions that he/she is angry or whatever. We don't recognize the manifestations of our own "stuff" especially early on in the trust stages (something that is indepdent of the time one spends in therapy)... it is eye-opening when we can perceive that.

my T often says that we are a work in progress... all of us, himself included. He slips up, screws up and often smiles and says "I disappoint a lot of people because I don't fit their expectation of me." He's a saint in my eyes, for his imperfections and not in spite of them.

the best suggestion i have is to really question your actions and motivations in how you approach your own journey... and not so much just what questions you ask per se. What you ask will depend on what assumptions you make when you act.

Originally Posted by DivideByZero

I am interested to know what happens if the answer to that question is a sincere yes? Then what? What other questions are important? What other skills? How does one know that they are on the correct path to "recovery"?

[darkrunner]

Little Rhino -
I am not trying to get into a conflict here. Like I said in my post, I agree with raising the question, I think it is a good question to bring up. You seem to be a little defensive at someone questioning you, or not agreeing with everything you say. But yet, as you say,

i'll take a few slings and arrows if it means one person sees themselves in what i have thrown out there.

i am not being critical or judgemental

So you must realize that the things you've written may come off as offensive to some, right?

I don't intend to argue with you about it! You are entitled to your opinion. I just want to clarify some of the things I said because you seem to have taken them in a way I didn't intend.

You said:
how is it you have chosen to accuse me of "mind-reading" etc? Perhaps your own wording is more harsh than you realize

That isn't an accusation at all, Little Rhino! "Mind-reading" is a CBT term and is one of the cognitive distortions. When we think we know what other's are thinking, it can lead to mistaken thoughts and feelings on our part. That's all. No harm intended.

You said,
Then you need to visit chat more
You've got me there! I've been in chat maybe twice in 2 years. Never found much value in it. So you are right, I probably haven't heard as much as you have.

You said,
I don't anywhere say that everyone is deliberately doing this, consciously or otherwise.
You did however, in your original post, say this:

Most people, or so i believe, spend a certain amount of time seeking this validation... to whatever extent.

But I suppose I am the one who jumped from 'most people' to 'everyone'.
I still don't really think there is much of a difference.


You said,
i didn't have a "revelation" - dear god, i don't know if you intend this but there is hardly need for an accusatory tone.
Blue Rhino, how is the word 'revelation' accusatory?
I was referring to what you said here in your original post:

That one hit me like a 2x4 in the face... i didn't get it at first.

Sorry for my characterization of this as a revelation. That's how it sounded to me.
But I hardly think that characterization is accusatory. It certainly was not intended to be so.

You said,
it is what it is, it is what i see... take it or toss it as you choose
Absolutely, I will toss as I choose. I apologize if my dissension has bothered you in anyway. As you told TheByzntine, i thought this was a discussion. But it is obvious you only want to 'discuss' with like minded people. And I am perfectly fine with that.
Take care.

[thine_self_untrue]

Huh... this is a really interesting point. And the question posed is one I have asked myself many, many times.

I suppose you would put me in the category of people who cannot and will not engage in getting well. I obstinately refuse to get professional help and I'm just trying to 'get by' with what I can do myself. This isn't something I'm proud of, it's more of a compromise with my fear. I have difficultly admitting to myself that I MIGHT indeed have some form of depression. Getting help would be taking this whole embarressing thing entirely too far.

I have waited for someone else to turn the light on. I have wished someone would ask my if I felt depressed or talk to me about depression. I have wished my parents would notice what seems so obviously wrong instead of saying it's "just me". I didn't get the love and attention I craved as a child. Maybe I asked too much, maybe I was given too little. I don't know. My point is not to pin blame, but to find the missing pieces to the puzzle.

I do want to be well. Yet sometimes I cling to the 'safety' and 'reassurace' my present situation offers. I'm not saying that what I am doing is right or in any way intelligent. I think it's absolutely stupid and I loathe myself for it. I think it's my fault I'm not getting better. But feeling so low so much has made me incredibly passive. It feels like life just happens, carries me along while I wait for the end.

So little*rino, I think you're right. I think some people don't get well because they don't 'want to'. But not everyone. I think there are also some people who genuinely want to be well, but nothing seems to help. I can only try to speak for myself.