Relying on "disorders"

I know that this may not be received well, but let me start off by saying that every problem is real to whomever struggles with it and I am not trying to invalidate anyone.

Having said that, I have noticed a trend when I speak to people, and view many posts on this site, that someone who has been diagnosed with a disorder will tend to bring it up before speaking about their problem. It seems as though it's almost a blame shift, like "I have no personal responsibility for how I handle my feelings, because I have a disorder". I recognize that this is not the case with everyone, but I see a general trend and it makes me curious. Someone once told me (in face to face conversation) that they just couldn't help but be depressed all the time because it was part of their disorder. "It's just the way I am, I can't help it." I understand that might be the way you respond to things RIGHT NOW, but that doesn't mean that you have to be that way.

For example, I have struggled with depression my whole life and even have the diagnosis of more than one therapist on more than one occasion that I have BPD and clinical depression. They put me on several anti depressants, but I was never on them for long. I just didn't like the idea that because my personality didn't fit into some Fruedian definition of normal, that I had to take drugs. Frued had his own issues. The guy was a cocaine addict! Why does his opinion of me matter? Do I get depressed sometimes...hell yes! Do I have issues that need to be worked on? Of course! Who doesn't? Can anyone claim to be completely healthy? Is that even possible in the world of psychology? It's all so subjective.

I feel like a lot of people use their disorder as an excuse to just accept defeat, rather than work on overcoming the psychological obstacles that are impeeding their ability to be more satisfied with their life. Again, I am not invalidating disorders, or saying they aren't real, but I get the impression with a lot of people that they are using it as a justification for their actions or the way they respond to the people around them and difficult situations that naturally arise during the course of their life. I feel like a diagnosis is meant to enlighten a person to certain behavioral patterns that are undermining their ability to deal with situations in a positive way. I see many people who ARE using their diagnosis as a method of self-improvement, rather than as their unchangeable identity. What worries me are the people who claim that this is just the way they are and that it is up to others to adjust to them. I don't know if that is really beneficial. Even if you convince loved ones and friends that they have to treat you a certain way so as not to aggravate your symptoms, is that really helping? Shouldn't you be challenging yourself to overcome this "disorder" by excersizing your ability to control the way you react to things by changing unhealthy patterns of thought?

I also want to acknowledge that medication works for many people, and just because I didn't find it helpful doesn't mean that someone else won't. My PERSONAL belief, and I say belief because I am no doctor and I have my own issues clouding my judgment, is that in the case of almost any disorder there is no "magic pill" that will make you feel better about yourself or change your behavior for you. That is up to you. Therapy is a great way to do this because you can work through your issues with someone who is objective and has no alterior motives other than to see you healthy and happy at the end of your treatment.

I hope this mammoth rambling is received the way I intended, as a post based just on curiosity. It's just some thoughts, and nothing more. I'm interested to see if anyone else sees things the same way, or can point out where I am missing the point or maybe there are aspects that I'm not taking into consideration...

Thanks to anyone who replies.

It's a moving picture (show :-) What I post this hour is not all of my posts nor how I feel at all (or even most) times. If one has a broken leg, we excuse their not walking well, it's obvious they cannot. If one is diagnosed with depression, some excuse their difficulties with "moving and shaking", and some don't. Those who don't take another's depression "seriously" or who "forget"/don't want to see the pain another is in, right this moment, make it harder for that person, right this moment.

I believe that sometimes, another stating their diagnosis (or just what they think/how they feel) is just another way of saying "Ouch" because we can't always see the effects of mental illness, may have "forgotten" telling someone to "go out and do something" won't work for someone suffering from major depression anymore than saying "Don't cry!" or "Don't be afraid" will help with someone who cannot stop crying or who is anxious/having a panic attack.

I think I understand where you are coming from, LazyLogophile, and I have often thought similar thoughts. What gives me the most trouble is posts asking for help that start out with "I'm helpless". "I'm depressed and can't do anything. . . what can I do about it?" is a frustrating post for me to read because I can think of what I think I might do if I were depressed, but I'm not depressed and am not that person so anything I might have to say is probably not going to be of help to that person. However, what I say, what I feel, how I respond to others is always going to be of possible help to Me, and that's why I'm here.

When I start judging what others say in their posts, I try to change the focus in my mind to what I may do to make my life more meaningful. It was a shock to be told I have a treatment resistant illness. My personality is not conducive to therapy, apparently. I also was told medications likely will not be of great benefit to me, but I should continue to take them if I perceive a benefit (placebo effect).

Even so, I understand and accept I am responsible for my well-being. Too, I know I have failings I may not be able to change. I have embraced the philosophy of the Serenity Prayer. My work for me is to change or accept. My goal here is to support others while on their journey to a better place, even if the support is in the form of saying nothing rather than being critical. I do not always succeed.

I'm torn about this argument, because... our world is built on excuses, and most of them are not mental heath related.... But I see it as an open question, what you're raising. I agree though it taints the whole idea of "struggling against" issues if these struggles are not based on some kind of ultimate truthfulness and accountability.

So do people use mental health issues to dodge responsibility? My guess would be sometimes or rarely.

Ultimately, we have to make our own choices and gather our own information. Whether our problems are the result of chemicals, personality, or simple misinformation is unfortunately a very personal call to make. But sympathy and the benefit of a doubt are good in themselves. I've decided to make these part of my values and path to self improvement (at least until something convinces me they don't work). I hope that makes sense!!!

Thanks for the responses, everyone! I hope that my post did not imply that I lack sympathy for troubles of others. I have received GREAT advice on this website, and I have tried to offer, what I hope was, helpful advice to others. I really appreciate the positive community and safe space that this website provides.

Hi there,

I don't think you came off as lazy or insensitive, just stated your opinion. I think that all mental illness gives like any other illness gives us a right to wallow for a minute. If I broke my leg I will for a minute not walk. but after that minute is up I have to take responsibility for my own actions. you can't get out of depression by acknowledging it alone. You have to make yourself do what you do not want to do despite not wanting to do it. You may derive no pleasure out of reading but you must do it because eventually the pleasure will come back (if that's something you enjoyed in the past).

I believe it is okay to feel self-pity as I said for a minute. But if we do not take action (which all of us have by joining a self-help site) then we cannot expect to get better.

It is frustrating to hear people use excuse after excuse to delay the important steps of working on their issues. I'm hesitant to say that mental illness is not just about a chemical imbalance that can be cured with meds. It is about our actions and what we do to make ourselves feel better. There is a book called Constructive Living which says that you must do what you need to do regardless of how you feel about doing it. For example, you must brush your teeth every day even though you don't want to because the feeling of wanting to will necessarily follow the action after some time of doing the action without the feeling being present.

Lots of life lessons here, great topic. I think you have brought an awareness to how we speak and that is truly important.

Love and Hugs,
Tara

I think it is often a question of where someone is at with their understanding of how a particular disorder impacts their life. Equally significant is the degree of effects and their present knowledge and awarenenss of appropriate treatment options.

I think the language we use, and how we use it is important to consider when examining how well or how poorly an individual is managing or not managing their life with a disorder. It is dangerous territory that requires careful attention to timing and an accute awareness of where the person is at in learning to cope with the effects and management of a disorder.

I know for me when people challenge my assumptions and suggest I am using a disorder to excuse my behaviours, justify or excuse my response to unwellness I will retreat and avoid opportunities that might put me outside my comfort zone. Sometimes our comfort zone is very small and our need for accommodation very high.

I don't think I know anyone who doesn't want to increase their capacities to cope with the effects that describe a disorder. Sometimes the steps towards greater capacity are not visible to outsiders. Sometimes they are. When people watch and judge and suggest I am not making progress makes me feel put under a microscope, or a spot light and measured according to a standard I feel incapable of reaching.

We all need to be met where we are at. If someone uses a disorder to explain or justify themselves then that is where they are at. If knowing that much helps them cope then that is their place to be at that moment in time. It may aways be enough for them or they may want to test the waters now and then to see if they can increase the parameters of their comfort zone.

I think one of the most challenging aspects of living with the effects of a disorder is knowing how quickly others will judge my character for being afflicted. How many people in the world still think mental illness is bunk. That is when lines like 'I can't help it' can actually serve a person's best interest. With all the messages out there I think most of us feel a great deal of guilt and self loathing for being afflicted. We do think it is our fault.

We are always getting messages that tell us it is a character weakness. To counter those messages it can be very helpful to remind ourselves it is not our fault. A legitimate disorder alters how we lives our lives. How well we respond to treatment, how long it takes and to what degree symptoms alter a person's life are different one person to the next.

Even in recovery there are too many shoulds telling me what I need to do when symptoms are accute. If I am not up to doing what I 'should' based on someone else's assessment or even their own experience always, ALWAYS make me feel more guilty, weaker and useless for not having the will, determination or strength of character to do what even I know is best for me. Even if it something as simple as getting up and brushing my teeth. When symptoms are accute nothing is simple. Doing what I should do isn't as easy as it might seem and judging me for not doing what might be easy for someone elses doesn't help me a bit when I am really suffering the most.

I am not speaking to anything said on this thread, just reflecting on my own thoughts and experiences on my journey through awareness, understanding and glimmers of hopefullness.

I will bite. Many people do rely on their labels. Been there, done that. And often they are told that it is not their fault, it's not their thoughts, not them, not in the least. It's chemical imbalance, they say, and it's like diabetus and one is powerless against it. Their disorder makes them do things. For many it indeed means removal of responsibility.

Western society is overly self entitled. Not just people with MI, but even normals often refuse to say responsibility (I mean look at all those people who get out there, say and do outrageous things and when confronted they cry about how nobody understand them, about their freedom of expression and how they should be tolerated...).

Many people DO use their disorders as crutch or as excuse. Sorry, but that is how it is.

I do believe one has to deal with their issues on their own in the end. Other can help a bit... but they cannot live your life for you.

Hello, tara. I think it is wonderful you are able to make yourself do what you do not want to do. Because you are able to forge ahead, however, does mean everyone can. Yes, it is frustrating at times to hear people use what we perceive as excuses to avoid working on important issues. This site, however, is one of support.

Many times I have been told to just get over it. I ask those who tell me this if they view my inability to just get over it as a personal weakness. Most often I am told yes, that is their perception. Some tell me they do not think I am lazy. Oh, how wonderful. The thought of intentionally remaining in a mindset that has visited so much hurt and unhappiness is so anathema I am stunned at the suggestion.

I have thought a lot about what I gain by being dysfunctional. Some sympathy, perhaps. SSDI payments that I paid the premiums for. Meeting some wonderful therapists who I paid to talk to me. Trying some medications that perhaps were beneficial because I thought they were.

Comparing what I gained with what I lost is an interesting process. Maybe I am deluding myself when I conclude being perceived as a useless deadbeat milking the system for all its worth is not so great.

This thread does present issues worthy of discussion. On a personal level, I certainly do not feel threatened by the conclusions of others who disagree with my thoughts based on what I have experienced.

To me, the issue is how does this discussion benefit the Community? Who is wise enough to know that others who post here are making excuses rather than going about the business of getting better? A bunch of therapists who had the opportunity to get to know me rather well concluded they were unable to help me. How many others who post here have had similar experiences?

The Byzantine,

I'm not saying that i can make myself do what I do not want to do, just that there is a book out there that suggests that one do that in order to get over things like depression.

I would caution you against taking things so personally. It's just my opinion.

Tara

Thank you for the caution, Tara. Let me assure you I long ago stopped letting others define who I am. My concern is about those who post here seeking support in an nonjudgmental environment. In my view, the suggestion members do not want to get better is not helpful, even if there is some truth to it.

You, of course, certainly are entitled to disagree with all that I say.

fair enough

I wasn't offended by the question at all. I think most people wonder this at some level and I like the opportunity to have a discussion about it.

ok me too...jumping in. hope i don't go off topic.
what works for some may not work for others. though, when i was so ill from my BP i had to make a choice. did i want to get better or wallow in it? even tho at that time i was almost emotionally paralyzed. but i chose to get help, i needed it!, and begin the journey of gaining/living a fuller life. i had to force myself but i wasn't willing to give up unless i found the effort futile. i didn't know if i could truly get better but i gave it a shot. i hoped i was right in having "hope". it wasn't easy even having a mustard seed of hope. but no pain, no gain.
i do believe that there are ppl that just choose not to help themselves. i can't judge them cause i know not their ability to do what i did. these are the unfortunates ones, imho.
there are ppl here that have sought help that are unable to benefit from the treatments that work for many of us. there may be some here at pc that can't afford getting help also. i see posts here that reference that. i am so grateful that even when i had no insurance miracles enabled me to proceed. i don't take my success for granted. i am responsible for my own recovery. for me, i chose not to let my illness define me. some do. i guess that is their choice.

I just think sometimes that people can be quick to assume someone who says, 'it is not my fault, I have this or that mental illness and it impacts my life in this or that way, I can't help it' is using an illness to justify something they think, feel or have experienced about managing their life with a legitimate illness.

We don't know all the reasons why someone explains or identifies themselves in the context of an illness. The reasons are too numerous to mention. Some have been mentioned by other posters. It is easy to make the jump to think an explanation is nothing more then an excuse but I don't think it is fair to make that determination about someone without knowing a lot of details.

Unless I know the intimate details of the effects of an illness on an individual, what treatment they receive, how they have responded to any treatment, what support they have in their life etc., I am not in a position to assess or offer a point of view about where they are in their management of the illness. Even then I have no right to measure them against anyone else. No matter how much 'evidence' there appears to be to support an assessment I can not be of service to someone experiencing a mental illness by making quick to judge assumptions.

I wonder if by assuming a person is avoiding treatment or resisting 'doing the work', those who are getting relief and seeing benefits aren't on some level looking for cause to pat themselves on the back and toot their own horn. How else would the quick to judge assumption be useful to anyone except the observer?

Perhaps I am oversensitive to judgement and therefore sensitive to others who might share my reactions to the OP's query. It feels uncomfortable to think that some people here might feel justified in classifying me in some way based on what they observe about me. I get enough of that from people who don't know better.

I appreciate that there was no intent to offend but I think it should be expected to go with the territory of such a sensitive query. I just don't see the value of a public discussion other then to support people who make those kinds of generalized assumptions.

Wow.......I've just read through all of this without breathing. I'm not even commenting. I don't have a way with words, but I certainly am capable of reactions, and I am reacting strongly to the original premise here.......

(Ugh, I just lost this whole post. I'll try to rewrite.)

When people mention their disorder at the beginning of their post, I usually assume they're just putting the situation in context. If someone's acting spazzy and high strung, it would help to know if they have a bipolar disorder or ADHD. My response could vary quite a bit depending on the nature of their disorder. It's helpful to know someone's history and their general issues. This isn't always the case, but I tend to give the poster the benefit of the doubt.

However, I do believe that oftentimes people will take on a self defeatist attitude and fail to seek out all the treatment options available. Oftentimes, they don't even know that these options exist. In my opinion, this is largely due to the progressive, medical approach we have taken to mental illness. The most supportive people are pushing pills and visits to the doctor - which of course have their place in treatment. And the most unsupportive are telling us to just 'get over it,' which obviously can't happen and usually just makes patients resentful and defensive. I think many are unaware that there is quite a bit they can do to help themselves, although a good therapist should make this information available.

The other problem with self-help is that it can be incredibly difficult, painful, and a lot of hard work. Restructuring my thought process, creating a good schedule, and changing almost all my habits probably saved my life. However, I'm not cured and when something falls through the cracks, it shows. I'm not 'over it' but I'm functional, although I can't even describe what went into the process. I know that during my worst times I would not have had the energy to begin the process. Sometimes it's all you can do to get out of bed. At times I couldn't even do that and probably needed hospitalization. Depending on what stage you're in you might need to take that next step forward, call for help if you can't, or just hang on for dear life. Like you, I'd probably be very worried for those who expect someone else to fix them, but that doesn't mean that people who aren't rapidly making progress aren't doing the best they can.

As for having friends and loved ones accommodate you, I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, some accommodation can be necessary. I know some people who are very triggering and will tell others to just 'get over it.' This bullying actually hinders my progress and creates a very negative environment. It's especially dangerous if I'm in a vulnerable state that day. So I can recognize that some accommodation is a good, even necessary thing. On the other hand, people can go overboard and even use it as a crutch (I probably have before). I also try not to have unrealistic expectations of my friends and family. I'd say that there's a definite balance that needs to be kept, and things often change in this area depending on how I'm feeling.

(Sorry, might edit this. The other version was better. Hoping I got the point across since I lost focus part way through.)

I'm with Greylove.... wow, what a thread. So much is going through my mind right now, as to the original questions (interesting points) and what followed, dismayed+ by some of this discussion. Have to come back later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LazyLogophile I know that this may not be received well, but let me start off by saying that every problem is real to whomever struggles with it and I am not trying to invalidate anyone.

I've read through this thread and am compelled to weigh in. Finding the words is difficult. I think we are ignoring the fact that there is a different set of circumstances and gradients of illness and pain. I have always functioned and coped with the world as best I could. I buried the past as deeply as possible. Events in my life led all of those issues to re-surface with a vengeance. When I discovered this site I learned more about myself and the people that inhabit "this world". I now know that my problems/issues are trivial in nature compared to many others here - and yet they still confound and cause me pain. I feel I know many of the people here - I love and respect many of them. To suggest that people use their pain (and pain is what it is) as an excuse for their behavior is ignorant beyond imagination. I sit and listen (in person) to people that have survived events that you clearly do not take into account. I watch my closest friend fall into darkness when triggered - you have no idea the depths of despair that people face each day and the struggles they have to overcome. Your post proves that beyond a doubt. Therapy and medication do not work for everyone - neither has worked for me - kindness, understanding and respect is the only things I respond to. Finding those elements are not always easy in this world. This place provides that for many. There isn't a one size fits all solution for everyone. I'm happy that therapy works for you as it does for many others. But your issues whatever they may be are not representative of everyone. Therapy to me was a place where I could talk and air my feelings - it could not cure me with exercises of the mind, it could not uncover some deep dark secret - I already know the secrets. People are here to communicate with others - it is a sounding board for many - and an absolute lifeline to others. To not see that staring you in the face is telling.

There have been responses in this thread from some that I have grown to really think the world of - and to read their responses it is clear to me that this has deeply affected them. I apologize to all of them for the poor judgment and narrow mindedness you and one or two others have shown. You simply have no understanding of what others deal with.

Accept my blessings at your good fortune.

Lazylogophile,

I am sorry for my tone if it offended you. The human condition requires attention, affection and acknowledgement - that is all that is needed. People sometimes seek attention in ways that we do not understand - it is not necessary to understand the motives or to try to draw conclusions from it.

Again I do not mean to offend - only to provide a different (and differing) perspective.

I find all the perspectives in this thread really interesting. What really caught my eye about the original question was not really should we have sympathy for one another-- which seems to have become the focal point of the discussion, and maybe rightly so...
But there's one aspect to the original question which I think also needs to be asked, which is, should we have sympathy for one another because we have disorders.

To use this site as an example, not exactly everyone who comes here exactly interacts with each other on the basis of their "illness." I think one of the reasons this site works really well is actually, despite the fact it is split up on the main page as categories of "disorders," the focus is not generally on unwellness-- I actually don't see a lot of this, "I'm depressed, help!" stuff. However, I do think that having an open forum to talk about disorders-- no stigma-- helps people to share their experiences and be open about them. And that in turn encourages others to be supportive and helpful.

I'm not convinced that disclosing "disorders" in real life always encourages others to be supportive and helpful, which is the only thing I have against labelling mental suffering.