Manipulation

I've been accused of being manipulative more times than I can count, even on here. Most of the time, those accusations are warranted. However, I don't always see how I'm being manipulative. Maybe I'm not in those cases. But perhaps I simply don't know when my behaviour is manipulative, because I have a misunderstanding of what manipulative behaviour is.

So... What is manipulation? How do we determine when manipulation is socially acceptable and when it crosses the moral event horizon into psychopath or politician territory? When is it clever persuasion, and when is it evil? Just curious...

I'm curious to find out the answers to your questions MTG, I've been accused of being manipulative, and honestly didn't recognize it in myself (always thought I loathed manipulative people) but my brother says I do it unintentionally as it's probably part of my bpd behaviour... Anywaay I've been making a concerned effort to N0T be 'manipulative'... Thanks for this post!

You're welcome.

I take manipulation to mean deliberately mis- or under-informing another to get a result positive for one's self in an interaction between myself and another. Manipulation is a misdirection of another.

I might be able to get more cookies if I don't tell my brother that mother made them today

Telling a story but deliberately leaving out key details so someone will likely think X about us or another instead of Y (i.e., deliberately talking about what the other person did wrong and not mentioning our own actions or talking about our feelings of hurt but not our actions in retaliation so people give us attention where they might not if they had a more complete picture, and knowing that is so).

Running home and telling mother, "Bobby called me a stupidhead!" but not that we first pushed Bobby down and then called him a "crybaby" is trying to manipulate an adult to side with us and get Bobby in trouble with a stronger-than-I-am adult.

Interesting post, It is something I too have been accused of in the past not sure I do it so much now though, It is part of BPD with me.

I think a lot of times, manipulation is in the eye of the beholder. Two people can do or say the exact same things, and only one will be considered manipulative. Like the old jokes about a man being a leader, and a woman doing the same thing is a b i t c h. So MTG may be targeted where Dr Muffin gets a hug button for the same comment. But having been accused of it myself, I would say it comes primarily from not taking responsibility for one's feelings, so you (i) try to manipulate someone else into carrying some of the load in some way.

I think everyone is manipulative to a certain extent, never more so than in the way we present ourselves to others in order to garner their support/empathy/advocacy. Manipulation is not by definition harmful as such. Babies manipulate their parents from birth.

In addition, I've always considered myself fairly easy to manipulate, and even when I notice it, I usually won't mind it (whatever it is) unless:

a) It's something that's hurtful to me.
b) It's something that's hurtful to others.
c) It's being done by someone who has no respect, i.e. they're attempting to elicit an action, behaviour or response from me that they aren't capable of themselves.

The instances above are when it becomes abuse rather than socially acceptable human behaviour.

I don't think you're manipulative here and can't say if you are IRL. Regarding here, I think there's a few who judge you by your label which isn't fair. If they did this with another diagnosis, it wouldn't be tolerated. Some naturally assume a psychopath must be manipulative all the time. They forget there may be some who are trying to live a decent life. I think there's a general prejudice - they hear the label psychopath and the person branded bad all around. The same thing happens with some other labels because they've been branded as generally bad people in society. I won't add what's good manipulation VS bad, because some posts already covered this well. I agree we all have the ability to be manipulative to some extent.

As stated above all human beings are manipulative to a certain extent. We have that in all of us for sheer survival. We have used that ability to catch food and grow crops and even find shelter.

When someone manipulates another only for personal gain leaving the other person in a poor position wether it be financially or psychologically, that would be a bad manipulation.

The good kind of manipulation is when someone simply cannot, for some reason see something that can be productive and useful for all so a presentation is given to convince them to support and bend rather than oppose. The end result of the manipulation is to serve a good purpose for all involved.

As far as politicians are concerned, they are very good at manipulating in both areas. They can manipulate in positive ways in order to enjoy a personal gain and standing. Or, they can truely be capable of seeing a very productive solutions and posess the talent to manipulate agreement of many to procure a positive result, not only to gain themselves but also to serve the gain for many.

A successful politician will flourish and gain personally if he/she can manipulate for all. When a politician manipulates for only self gain, the duration of his gain will eventually run out. However many politicians don't care, they are only in it for personal gain and power and if they walk away with personal gain, they don't care about what they leave behind which could be poverty, and great losses by many.

And surprisingly the legal system we have in place though designed to seek justice, may not truely accomplish that goal. If someone is truely injured the person responsible can manipulate the legal system for a long time which can cause further harm to a person who has been injured. This is done all the time by insurance companies that will manipulate the system to wear out a victim in hopes of enough desparation that a victim will give up the fight or settle for much less than they truely deserve.

There is good manipulation and bad manipulation. Normal human manipulation and destructive manipulation.

Open Eyes

I've made a variety of posts in the ASPD area and read a whole lot more but I haven't seen you been manipulative. Then again, posting via text limits experiencing one's behaviour, so your manipulative behaviours may not be reflected online. However, I have also seen that, like many people, you censor yourself so it makes it even harder to tell.

I haven't been accused on here of being manipulative but I have often been accused in real life, sometimes with threats. Usually it was when I was intentionally being manipulative, although I have been accused of such when I was not aware. Interestingly, many of those accusations came from the same people, so perhaps I just rubbed them the wrong way without knowing how. When someone does try to manipulate or lie to me, I view it as both entertaining and a warranted chance to do it in return until I get bored or it seems lame at the start, in which case I walk away.

My judgment of when manipulation is evil may be different than yours and a next person could have a whole other view of when it is evil.

I believe we all manipulate others throughout our lives, perhaps even multiple times per day, so to me manipulation is the process of achieving a certain goal by being cunning, deceitful, distorting the truth or playing "mind games". I think it crosses into psychopathic or political territory when someone constantly uses it to maximize hedonism at all costs or viewing individuals as objects for one's disposal rather than human beings. As for when it is socially acceptable, that probably comes down to the desired outcome, actual outcome and severity and quantity of who is damaged along the way.

Manipulation, to me, is a more subtle form of coercion. Both are attempts to get a person to behave in a manner that is counter to what they want. Coercion often involves threats, force, or money whereas manipulation usually involves a person's emotions.

IMO.

Is it wrong of me to not see anything wrong with that? Seriously, though. I'm presenting an argument. To indicate anything that would undermine my argument would be counter-productive to self-preservation (usually). Plus... I'm in no way refusing Bobby his right to provide a counterargument, nor am I necessarily lying. Now, if I claimed Bobby was a stupid head who was slandering me by saying I pushed him down the stairs, which I didn't... I would be lying, and that would be wrong. Or if I threatened Bobby into silence, that would also be wrong and probably illegal.

I can see that, especially when one considers different cultures. And it's a problem I've been having a lot lately. Another blogger (I forget who) mentioned that once he was labelled as a psychopath (manipulative), everything he did suddenly became manipulation in the eyes of everyone else. So it makes it harder for me to determine if it's their fear of the label or if I'm actually doing something of which I'm not fully aware.

I agree that manipulation isn't harmful by definition, and I like your distinctions between socially acceptable and harmful manipulation. Is there any type of manipulation where, even if neither party gets harmed, it's still wrong? "Lying" for the greater good sort of thing...

This bold part is what incited all of this... I was on a website a few days ago. They had a term for everything I said. Word salad. Pity ploy. Emotional blackmail. Misdirection. Playing the victim. So on and so forth... One even accused me of using other accounts to pretend to be emotionally tormented by the things I said in order to upset the rest of them. I have no idea what they were talking about, and they refused to tell me. Ironically, they agreed with a lot of what I said before I told them my diagnosis. Still... It's hard for me to believe that a simple word can have such an impact on people... If I actually wanted to wreak havoc, all I'd have to do is say, "Hi, I'm Michael, and I'm a psychopath," and whole communities are left in ruin. It's happened a few times before... I don't intend to do this. But is it still manipulation because I know it's likely to happen and it does hurt people? Would it be more or less wrong of me to hide my personality? Faking emotion and that... Isn't that basically manipulation because I'm making people believe I'm someone that I'm not?

i think when i say something, hoping for a certain response, it's wrong.
When i am knowingly deceptive, it is wrong.
when my actions cause the reaction from another that i want, it is wrong.
i feel used when manipulated.
not everyone is kind
most people are users

No Michael I don't think you should hide who you are. Its not your fault you were born this way. When you 1st came here I remember your wife was in labor and I was supporting you. I didn't know your diagnosis and when I did find out, it wasn't a factor affecting my opinion of you. I feel you're fair but can stick up for yourself but you don't get out of line. I treat people based on how they treat me, not what their diagnosis or someone else says.

I also think you try to understand yourself and are even puzzled sometimes with peoples complicated emotions. Now if someone was an admitted pedophile I don't think I could be fair nor would a person like this be welcomed here. You have the same right as anyone else to get support here.

Michael, your an interesting member here at PC. I know in my own interactions with you I have had to stop and think about how to explain things to you in a very different way. Most people who do have empathy communicate with each other based on touching on that area of common emotionality. It becomes a sense that is learned because by listening to another in emotional pain, we can truely relate to that pain and offer methods to reason beyond that struggle with emotions.

With you, it is more challenging because you simply cannot base your responses from emotional experience. Everything you do is based on intellectual capacity as well as using that intellect to observe emotionality. I think about observing someone riding a horse and presenting that horse with trained capacities. I could sit with someone and explain the various training methods applied to achieve that end result. However I must know that without that person actually going through thru the motions of feeling that interaction take place, they cannot appreciate the amount of time and efforts that take place for that achievement. Therefore, as much as I try to express the lengthy process for both rider and horse, I will only be able to educate an observer to a certain extent which would just leave them with a general knowledge of a process without that ability of appreciation of what it means to personally experience that task. So at most all I can do is educate a spectator on the conformations of horse to look for, the intelligence level, the amount of desire of the horse for achievement needed, and a step by step process needed to present a winning valuable athlete. There will be a limit of appreciation for that process without the personal experience of actually producing that end result.

When you disclose the fact that your a psychopath, what most people are presented with is the information that you do not have the capacity to empathize at all. So what that means to those who do have that ability is that no matter what they present to you emotionally, you will never appreciate or know to respect that part of them. And psychopaths are defined as preditors who truely only think about personal gain and regard all others as mere objects that can either be disgarded or used for personal gain. It is known that there is a true absence of campassion or true guilt.

No real productive or postive information is presented "yet" that truely expresses a productive value in psychopaths that can be considered a "safe person" to interact with. This is not my personal opinion, it is only what is given as a description of what is known about psychopaths through current studies. And it will remain that way until the psychopaths that have presented productive useful qualities are presented. Lets face it, those psychopaths are not going to present themselves readily. So at the most the psychopaths that are known are typically ones that have proved to be a menace and danger to society.

As a person who considers a usefullness for all kinds of things, I personally am more apt to stop and consider how a psychopath CAN present a positive to society. To be honest I do think about that a lot as I struggle with the damage my obviously strong capacities for empathy can disrupt my progress and decision making as well as leaving a crippling residue of emotional doubt. Lets face it, empathy can lead to many crippling conditions, and I am sure as you do not experience that it must come across to you as very disruptive and even shear stupidity as well as a complete waste of time and energy.

What I question " is the intellect present in those that do not have the emotions that can prevent progress, have the ability to progress beyond to reason out solutions that will benefit many?" So as far as psychopaths are concerned, my question would be is a psychopath capable of using the added intelligence to present solutions for many or are they just only capable of resolving and manupulating their intelligence simply for personal gain?

I do not have the answer, no one has that and until that question is answered the stigma of doubt will remain as those whom tend to manipulate only for personal gain with no ability to consider or respect anything other than themselves. I am simply expressing what is known now, not my personal opinion. I personally, as I mentioned, wonder about how psychopaths can be some kind of useful resourse not yet considered? I have already mentioned in another thread that I believe they have always been present and have served a purpose in the survival of primitive groups. And I do know that in animals that survive in groups there are different capacities that are needed to form the group, even in horses and in dogs as well.

Open Eyes

Yes this is my definition of manipulation as well. Almost like an emotional rape,.

You know I'm not being myself when no one threatens my life... Seriously, though... Perhaps you should lay off the manipulation just a wee bit so no one, you know... tries to kill you. Just a suggestion...

I may have the same problem; I probably just rubbed them the wrong way. I do have a tendency to be rather blunt and insensitive, especially with people who I think are bs'ing me. Odd, though, that of all things they could accuse me, they all chose manipulation. Some of my closer friends have also said that I have a tendency to be manipulative.

When people try to manipulate or lie to me, I cross-examine them. And I'm not above badgering a witness. Or I'll take it as an invitation to play a game. Either way, I don't take it seriously. And maybe that's my problem... I'm just manipulative by nature, so some of it may happen out of habit.

Ok. I won't. I suppose I don't have any control over how people react to the information. And it's really not my problem, selfish as that may sound...

Open, thank you for the response and the support. But I know that not all of these accusations can be attributed to the stigma of my diagnosis, and I don't want to lay all the blame on that. Even if they are, I'm trying to get a better understanding of manipulation itself so I can determine if my behaviour is actually manipulative and try to change that behaviour if it is.

And thanks everyone for your responses. I appreciate it.

Pretty much what happened was someone called me out on manipulating or trying to get something while wearing a "mask", then expected a heart-felt apology. I then was accused of not giving a sensitive enough apology or undoing something, so it got down to a verbal threat. After I apologized later or they calmed down, we always got over it, although there still is some tension but your suggestion certainly is noted .

My best or closest friends aren't too bothered by it, or perhaps they just don't see me as manipulative. One of them I do consider fairly manipulative and he has the same view of me but we've never clashed. The positive element though is even though your close friends view you as manipulative, which many find undesirable, they choose to stay with you because they like you as a person. Although they find you manipulative, this goes back to your first post, as they may not see it as "evil" or psychopathic/politician-like.


I cant help but wonder, with TV shows such as Criminal Minds, House, The Mentalist (main character was "diagnosed" as a psychopath in the show) have an effect because they often label characters who aren't moved by much or don't take things seriously as psychopathic or sociopathic. From personal experience, not taking things seriously can certainly rub people the wrong way when it's expected you would care or take something seriously, which may be viewed as pathological. I figure there must be something else that leads people to conclude manipulative out of all other common pathological behaviour.

I do not think there is anything wrong in being a little manipulative once in a while, especially if there is something particular that you want, it is a good thing that you are able to fight a little for what you want

Regarding the bully comment - I feel bothered by this because I thought calling names like this is against the guidelines. Part of me wonders if this would be tolerated just because of the psychopath title - like this person deserves this? If a person with a less threatening diagnosis put up this thread, I doubt they would get called a bully.

In addition I've been involved in some heated debates before for causes sensitive to my heart - I don't bite unless my tail is stepped on. Maybe to some I may have appeared a bully. If we live in a glass house we shouldn't throw stones. I don't want to be seen as this posters protector either, because I know he can take care of himself. I would do this for anyone who I don't think is getting fairness.

Ahhhhh, I remember the first post I read of yours Michael. I couldn't quite know what to think other than that post really triggered me and the tone of it was not very inviting. I never really recall interacting with a psychopath before and the only thing I knew is a general message of the incapacity to feel guilt or empathy as well as being extremely intelligent.

And as I have come to know more about you through your different posts since then, somehow I can understand that first post better. I had to think about what all the expressions of emotional stuckness must have looked to you. And as I thought about that I could see how you could find it quite boring and distasteful. And you had to change your name and your very triggery avatar as well. And you did change your tone and I didn't even know that you were the same person. As a matter of fact that first post to me showed so much disgust for what was being observed that I didn't think there would be anything more but some kind of ridicule of all this outpouring of emotional distress.

I have been thinking about what that truely means. I have seen some very interesting posts since then from you, even some that are somewhat comical. And I have also seen you honestly educate members with your frankness about the capacities of a psychopath and that there are different kinds of psychopaths. So, naturally as I do like to learn, your posts have peaked my interest. And when that happens I do admitt that I consider my sense of resoursefulness, and in that look for how you could be useful.

Considering the replies to your thread thus far, I feel that it is agreed that manipulation is something that all humans practice on different levels.

I wonder what the bottom line is for you Michael. Are you here to learn how to be a more effective manipulator? Or are you truely wondering how you can just fit into a group of human beings that can be very entrapped by their own emotionality?

And I am not trying to out you or get a rise out of you or even be unsupportive. What I am wondering is something a bit different. Again I am considering the usefulness of what you do have, which is sheer intellect and desire for the best survival you can muster. But what does that entail for you? From what I have been able to understand from your posts is that there is only a short span of pleasure for you, which I guess is the down side of not having all this emotionality. What activity presents that short spirt of brief satisfaction for you? This answer would reveal your true search of the answer to your question.

Many people have issues with their emotions ruling or getting in the way of their ability to be productive. One of the things they have to learn is how to intellectualize a pathway that can help them over-ride the crippling effects of stress and anxiety that is often presented by being over emotionally reactive to their environments and life experiences that may have included many negetive signals. Your capacity to intellectualize your way through different events or circumstances can prove helpful.
But what I do question is how you can do that without actually knowing the emotional tie downs? And I actually saw that weakness come out in you and I did try to point it out to you. Unfortunately it was at time when I was both intellecutally and emotionally tapped IRL. So I don't know if I was effective or not in my explaination, you never really got back to me.

This is a very interesting topic Michael because though all human beings do manipulate by design, some posters here have stated that they have been accused of being manipulators and they are not consciously aware of what behavior pattern they expressed the gave that impression. That is a very important signal to investigate. For example, people who have borderline personality disorder are known to manipulate however they often are not exactly aware of how they manipulate (they do admitt this). And often this can be a result of something not provided in early childhood that may have interrupted their ability to reach a real sense of security.

I also had to think about that link you presented to radio flyer about anger management. Expressing anger itself can be a form of manipulation or it can truely have a reason much deeper than manipulation, it can be a deep anger of being manipulated that resulted in a lot of emotional pain. You yourself presented the display may have a motive. Frankly I am still thinking about the suggestion offered in that link, could it serve to teach manipulation, hmm I am still wondering as I said. But it was on track about how emotional people do absorb anger from other emotionals.

I am not so sure that your going to get a quick answer Michael that will satisfy your question.

What have you learned thus far? Do tell if you can.

Open Eyes

I wasn't planning on talking about what the OP's intentions are here or even in life and I realize Open Eyes, you have good intentions. Its hard for any of us to wonder what are the intentions of everyone here, plus would we dare ask anyone else this? Just because someone has an less than pure label doesn't mean intentions are bad. As for what career could being a psychopath be an asset - well computer hackers often get hired by large companies, some criminals end up helping the police. I could see a psychopath helping the police or the FBI in tough serial cases...providing a profile or inside look.

The original poster also posted a lot of info about psychopaths so the general population could understand, since there's a lot of misunderstandings. I found the thread about how to spot a psychopath and how not to be a victim of crime helpful. Many misunderstand and think they choose to be evil, but they were born lacking the part of the brain. Back the original topic - I think its a good topic to discuss since we all at some point have used this. Even a woman wearing a short skirt and tight shirt is a form of manipulation if she's hoping to attract men lol. Children and even dogs are masters of manipulation with their cuteness lol.

My closest friends aren't bothered much by it either, but they won't go along with it. And my wife is starting to see it as a game too. Maybe I'm rubbing off on her. Nearly all of them are insensitive and sarcastic - the "No BS" type of people. Perhaps is just a personality trait of theirs...

What's-his-face from the Mentalist was diagnosed as a psychopath? What episode? I've only seen a few episodes, but he seemed a few degrees of evil shy of such a diagnosis. I see what you're getting at... Although, everything's considered pathological nowadays...

Probably not. But if the mods are willing to overlook it, I'd like to see what the response is.

Which post was that? And it triggered you? I'm sorry. I thought I was restraining myself fairly well compared to my other forum...

Neither. I'm already quite adept at manipulation (recognizing it and controlling it, however, is another matter). I doubt there's anything PC has to offer in that respect. And I can already "fit in" with the crowd, although it's much more beneficial to stand out.

I joined this site nearly two years ago. What reasons I had for coming here have changed numerous times since joining. I'm not trying to learn about anything in particular any more. I just like the discussions, and I do learn about myself and others in the process.

A lot of things, most of which don't really tie into manipulation. I don't see where you're going with that...

Nor do I want or expect a quick answer. I'd much rather have a discussion with depth and helpful information.

I've learned that people can be accepting. I can now control my outbursts a bit better. I'm more collected in arguments. I've learned to accept people's decisions even if I don't agree with them. I now know that I'm not my father, and I don't need to cling to this hatred of him to keep myself in check. I realized that my inability to tolerate boredom is much worse than I'd previous thought. And I still don't quite understand boundaries. Healthy boundaries, anyway.

"I wasn't planning on talking about what the OP's intentions are here or even in life and I realize Open Eyes, you have good intentions. Its hard for any of us to wonder what are the intentions of everyone here, plus would we dare ask anyone else this? Just because someone has an less than pure label doesn't mean intentions are bad" ~quote Lynn P

Dare ask anyone else this? Sure why not? And as you mentioned Micheal is very capable of answering for himself. What is a "pure label"? I am not sure there is such a thing as a pure label as a matter of fact we are basically all unique so in that alone what is pure? However that statement is very important for all of us here to remember, "Just because someone has a less than pure label doesn't mean intentions are bad". As a matter of fact, I think about that all the time, all the time!

Actually I am glad I asked you that question Michael. It was very interesting to read what you learned and have yet to learn. The boundary concern, that is something you have in common with many Human Beings. That is a difficult area, but it is good that you are still expressing a desire to learn. I am sure that you have observed many members here working on that as well.

This forum is open to all members, therefore you will get a variety of replies. I find it an interesting topic as well.

"What activity presents that short spirt of brief satisfaction for you? This answer would reveal your true search of the answer to your question."

Ok, you did answer part of this question, saying satisfaction for you is unrelated to manipulation. I recall reading one of your posts that did talk about the short spirts of brief satisfaction, what percepatates that if not the result from manipulation (some do enjoy satisfaction from seeing manipulation work, even harmless manipulation).

Thank you for your response to my questions.


Open Eyes

I appreciate the support and clarification and so forth. But, as I mentioned before, I'd like to refrain from debating my diagnosis and motives being here, and instead focus on what makes someone manipulative vs socially persuasive.

Welcome to PC, Argan. It's a pleasure to make your acquaintance. I'm Michael.