Emotional problem is not an insult...

" People simply don't want to admit that they have an issue that they need to address, and perhaps grow and mature. " quote TheDragon

So I guess I took this statement wrong then. I was triggered by it, I admit.

You know, you should really consider reading the rest of that post and putting that one sentence in conjunction with the rest of it. I'd also like to point out that that was my first response to this thread, and it was 100% directed to the topic of the OP. It's the example you keep going back, when I wasn't even talking about PTSD.

Thank You ultramar

I haven't seen any research that bears out the concept. It seems that people who have experienced trauma are more likely to experience trauma in the future, and people who've experienced violence or abuse are more likely to experience abuse in the future.

Can you analyze why that might be?

I''ll give you some examples of how that might work. Why it might work is a philosophical question that I would need to examine separately.

1. Traumatic Event ---> Stress ---> Effective Coping ---> Health ---> Good Decision Making Ability ---> Avoidance of Trauma

2. Traumatic Event ---> Stress ---> Reacting ---> Relative Stability w/ Increased Stress Response ---> Decreased Decision Making Ability ---> Susceptibility to Further Negativity

3. Traumatic Event ---> Stress ---> Inaction ---> Disease/Victimization ---> Poor Decision Making Ability ---> Repeating Negative Patterns

I think it's important to keep in mind, Open Eyes (and I can understand from your experience that it's hard) that this (above) is not what is happening here, now, on this forum. quote ultramar

ultramar,

I actually appreciate your pointing this out. And it wasn't so much that I felt that "I" was being personally attacked in this thread. However, I "have" been a victim of others in my life that were very dismissive when I was genuinely emotionally challenged and it really wasn't a matter of "immaturity" on my part.

And even Dragon's last statement about a statement he posted was "not about ptsd but was addressing Venus's intitial questions". It doesn't really matter whether or not it was addressing PTSD specifically either. Because this is a discussion that is being read by anyone here that is challenged in someway. And it did disturb a couple of these people.

I think about who I was before I developed PTSD alot. And since this experience where I really struggled and did have that kind of response come at me, which actually was the "wrong" way to respond to someone "tramatized and experiencing post tramatic stress", it really changed how I look at people who struggle.

I have learned alot during my time in my own recovery, and here at PC. So I do look at "mental illness" in very different light, and I don't think of it as someone is just "crazy" or that someone is "just immature" either.

I use PTSD as an example because that is what "I" suffer from myself. But I can see how other "mental illnesses or brain challenges of somekind" can lead to "emotional challenges" or how emotional challenges can lead to "mental illnesses". And my own childhood was all about watching my older brother who had a disability and how he was "constantly punished" for it BY EVERYONE where ever he went. I had to study his face everyday to monitor how badly it built up inside him to where he would need to let it out, and he often "let it out on me".

If "anything" when I look at that poster Venus put up, I can say that immaturity and ignorance is not the one who suffers so much as it is THE IGNORANCE OF SOCIETY and how that CHALLENGE IS OFTEN DISMISSED, DISREGARDED, AND MISTREATED. So I know what that poster is trying to shed light on, its a start, but is not going to change "stigmatism".

When I hear about how my grand nephew is being poorly treated in school and how he is not "heard" when he tries to explain when he has "had enough" because he feels inside himself the tremendous force of anxiety building up that he can't seem to control, he is not heard. Instead his teachers keep pushing him, and he loses control and then they "restrain him". My grand nephew has Autism/Asbergers and he is "high functioning" but he is "very challenged" and somehow "others" do not listen to him and he is "very frustrated" by that. And he "does" struggle emotionally because of that. And it isn't a matter of "his maturity", it is a matter of "the maturity of others" that isn't there.

Because of my childhood where I really never "felt safe" it affected how I was able to learn and grow. Not only that but I have the scars of ulcers, hyatal hernia, barretts esophgus and I do struggle with anxiety, I was always looking over my shoulder and I didn't really realize that wasn't normal. And I do remember that when I tried to "tell" and discuss how I often struggled "emotionally" I was constantly "dismissed".

That day when I had woman come out to my farm with her grandchild and she ended up being a Doctor, highly educated and specialized in treating children as a "child psychologist, and she was so impressed and told me how "gifted" I was when I worked with her grandchild, it hit me pretty deeply. And she also is a college professor teaching others to do what "she" does, yet something is really missing there. Am I brilliant as I am told so often? I AM NOT SO BRILLIANT!!! The truth is I know something that so many seem to just not get, to overlook, it isn't brilliance either, it is just first hand experience, knowing the suffering "first hand".

Honestly? It is sooooo sad to me when therapists and psychiatrists are so enlightened by me. When I went to "them" for help and they turn around and thank me for helping them? I look back at that and it wasn't "ME BEING SO GIFTED" at all, and to think they didn't help me, and I did need help.

One day, I started to see that differently and I thought to myself how awful it is that I can see these things others can't see. I felt so alone with that thought. I had always thought it was "me" that somehow didn't get it or was not smart enough. How many times I would talk to parents about "their own children" and how much they didn't know about "their own children" always amazed me. The ignorance never ceases to amaze me. And then I come here and I see the end result, and it moves me to the depths of me. And if "I" am some how brilliant from seeing that, then that is such a trajedy, because "I AM CERTAINLY "NOT" BRILLIANT".

Dragon, I didn't know "how" you were challenged, and we sure didn't start off on the right foot. But it really explains alot to me about you and why that happened. And I can even understand where you are at in "your healing" and what you are saying here about "growth and maturity". I see it too, I can identify with what you are saying. However, what I do know though, is that often that "sentiment/advice" may not be "well recieved" depending on where a person is in their challenge with their "mental illness" or personal confusion. And it also depends of how much they have been "denied in their challenge" by the ignorance of society.

And I do hear that confusion all the time when people talk about how they have "tried" to sit with a therapist and didn't get what they needed or they feel like they are going to be judged, or that a therapist is not going to "get what they are saying" etc. And unfortunately, these misunderstandings or misdiagnosings, do occur, been there and gone through that myself, so I know.

And personally, I feel that our society is turning to "drugs" to solve problems, but that doesn't really "solve alot of the problems" that challenge so many. Yes, growth and maturity can go along way, but in order for that to happen, there has to be "less ignorance on the part of society too". That would have to mean "less stigma" and "more understanding and education", which there is definitely a "huge lack of". Mental "illness" or some kind of "disability" can cause challenging "emotions". However, someones emotional challenges due to a person's environment or dealing with tramatic events, can lead to mental illnesses.

I'm not after philosophy; I'm after mechanisms, why things happen.

Why, in the last two cases, does decreased emotional health lead to increased abuse from other people?

pachyderm - I think emotional health is protective in a number of ways. First, it decreases stress. Having constant stress causes people all sorts of problems one of which is not thinking clearly. Being aware of stressors and dangers is the first step to avoiding them, simplistically.

If you don't know, for example, what sort of red flag behaviours in others to look out for, then you will be much more likely to become involved with people who may harm you. I am not going to get involved with someone who's violent, because at the very first whiff of violent tendencies, I will cut ties with that person.

If you've grown up with violence, though, you may find it more acceptable. You may tolerate it to some degree, or even a large degree.

Self worth is also protective. If you feel you're worth nothing, then you'll allow all sorts of mistreatment. However, if you value yourself, you will stop unsavoury behaviour as soon as possible.

A sense of control is important, too. Someone who lacks a sense that they can have some agency or power in their life will not put a stop to abuse. This person is a victim and feels that they can do nothing to change.

Emotional health also inspires support from others. Emotionally healthy people grow larger and more supportive networks of others who can help in times of distress. Helping others improves health, and strengthens community / family ties, too, so it's reciprocal. Having help decreases stress greatly.

"Why, in the last two cases, does decreased emotional health lead to increased abuse from other people? " quote pachyderm

That is because "victims" can utilize "defence mechanisms" that can "attract" people who are "abusive" or as often stated, "hurt people, hurt other people".

If a victim developes "defense mechanisms" where they appear stronger, or more "intellectual" or even will be the one that points out bad things, they can often draw others to "challenge them" and want to "put them down" because it seems like they are putting themselves "above others" or are "stronger then they actually are".

Or, a victim can be "timid" and can be quiet or look like "easy prey" to someone who is "abusive" so the "abusive" person will pick them to be a victim. Sometimes this also happens because the "abuser" is "repulsed" by this "victim mentality" because it reminds them of a part of themselves that they "hate".

Another example could be: Lets say a man was raised by a naricisistic mother and no matter what he did to try to "please" or "gain natural approval that all children want" his mother never showed him appreciation and love. What can happen is that "any woman" that "reminds him of his mother" can become a target. He may try to "please this other woman and gain adoration" because when someone is "tramatized" or "neglected" it is "normal" to want to finally "resolve that trama or neglect" so that "healing or a sense of overcoming can take place". So, what can happen is there can be a "testing" or "unhealthy interactions" with this woman that reminds him of his mother that can lead him to think he is "again" facing rejection or failure. So, he may then want to try to "discredit" or "invalidate" this woman anyway he can, it can become an "obcession" even. Unfortunately this man can become very "confused" about women, and never be able to actually "have" a good relationship with a woman.
It can spiral down into him even experiencing "crippling anxiety" of somekind, even having a strong sense of "personal failure" that he can't quite seem to "fix". This scenario can also be replaced by a woman instead of a man going through these "unhealthy attempts to overcome neglect from a father".

Unfortunately pachyderm, when someone is "tramatized" or "neglected" they will be constantly setting goals to find a way to "resolve" that trama or neglect. We are "all" designed to do that in order to survive. Unfortunately people can get "skewed" and not understand "how" to "fix" whatever "hurt" them and they can try to "settle the pain" in some very "destructive ways", even self harming or becoming a "bully" or hiding the pain in "narcisism".

When I talk to people who have been victims, or have been neglected and are struggling. I tell them to look "behind" the person who neglected or abused them so they can realize it was not due to "their" lack of worth or weakness. Instead the person who neglected or hurt them had themselves experienced "personal injury or neglect or pain" of somekind which inturn made them, inadequate or incapable of properly nurturing their child, or even appreciating others in "healthy" ways.

Often, victims can be drawn to others who appear "strong" where they feel they will somehow be "protected" and what they actually might pick is someone much like the person who abused them, and their appearance of strength is not "true stength" at all, instead they can be a very "selfish and a highly narcisitic person" who constantly dominates and even can "victimize and control".

Another thing that can happen is that a woman may pick someone abusive like their father unknowingly, it seems safe, something is familiar, something looks like something they know how to live with etc. However, they discover, often much too late that all they did was marry a disfunctional man just like their father. That happens alot.

Are you starting to now see how a victim can be respeatedly a victim? It is not something "intended" but how being a victim can lead to experiencing more abuse.

"Emotional health also inspires support from others. Emotionally healthy people grow larger and more supportive networks of others who can help in times of distress. Helping others improves health, and strengthens community / family ties, too, so it's reciprocal. Having help decreases stress greatly. "

LovelaceF,

What I have been trying to explain to my daughter lately is that because she is strong and emotionally healthy, she tends to attract "broken people" as she puts it.
Unfortunately in her generation, there are so many "broken people" her age. So many of her piers come from the generation of "thow away marriages" where so many her age come from "broken homes" with all kinds of problems. It is very sad.

A lot of this only confirms my opinion that avoiding the majority of people is the best thing to do yet people say 'you should try and become a contributing member of society.' Why would I want to participate in a society that essentially kicks you when your down? I mean its not that I cannot function well in it even if I try I also don't really want to participate in it anyways.

How so, Hellion? What makes you say that people will kick you while you're down?

You don't recover for the society, you do it for yourself. Of course you can sit in corner and down, put politically correct sayings on your walls and worry about what society things and feel hurt.

i know my neighbors probably think i am weird. Many people here probably think I am a beyotch. But eh... I am not gonna change that. But I can try to live for myself and knowing i was right... I wonder if the defensivness of "I can't" couldn't be... "I am scared". Because I am scared too. But at least to myself i admit, I maybe could...

It is a good thread Venus, an opportunity to learn and consider how the posters feel about the topic.

From the moment I saw your quote about "it is no measure to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society", it really resonated with me. But that's how we have to be "strong inspite of" what is often a profoundly sick society, or at least a "profoundly ignorant" society.

I think that the defense of "I can't" isn't just fear, it is "I don't seem to know how to". So many of your age group seem to think that they have to know who they are and their "path" in life. But it just doesn't really work that way, the truth is we learn about ourselves all our lives. And it isn't even about how well educated someone is that is going to detemine that summit where they can say, "here I am" either. What really happens is "learning and knowledge" are tools we can use and the more tools we have the closer we can get to reaching a point where we find our own way of putting these tools together to a point where we can express ourselves in our own unique ways. But even then, we will still be learning all through our lives.
We learn to be in our 20's, then 30's, then 40's, and even in our 50's we stop and consider, "gee, if I only knew then what I know now". Even then we are still learning and growing.

Yes, I was triggered in this thread, but honestly it wasn't "at someone", it has to do with my "own issues" and I have come to realize that when that happens, I have another opportunity to "learn something" about myself that I somehow didn't understand "yet".

"I maybe could" is important Venus, it is a willingness to learn and grow, so important to "healing and growing and yes, maturing too".

It IS scary and it's hard. Frankly, it's harder to be "sane" when you have issues, than it is to hide away in your own misery and issues. I definitely think that in most cases, it's not lack of ability, but rather the lack of will or want.

Yes I realize that's not politically correct, and definitely not the general consensus here, but I really do like to think that everyone has the ability.

But yes....you definitely don't recover for anyone else but yourself, and when you do, or you're forced to, chances are you don't make any kind of real recovery or change. Look at all those who are forced into rehab...most of the time they end up in the same place as before just for the fact they didn't choose to do it for themselves.

Society in general does that, if one is perceived as a 'victim' it just attracts abuse or bullying sometimes even from people who otherwise display civil behavior. Or people that are mentally health/stable have a bigger support network due to having more friends and you can't very well gain mental stability without some sort of support. That is what I have kind of seen in life and gathered from some of the posts here. Jobs want confident fast paced people not mentally damaged people who can hardly keep up with the fast paced society.Then if you simply can't cope with that and try and get on SSI you're a leech wasting taxpayer dollars.

There's just not a lot of support or help when you're already having a difficult time trying to get by without having a mental breakdown. Or even when there is help there's all the stigma. I just see no reason to want to be a part of that, I just wish I was smart enough to figure out something besides SSI but I have no idea what other options there are besides work which is out since no one is going to hire me and if they do it wouldn't be for long.

I can understand how you could think so, but to me this is a misconception. There are bad people who will take advantage of others. True. They will kick you when you're down, and exploit your weaknesses. That's because they're looking for the easiest target. They would kick anybody if they thought that they could get away with it.

If a bicycle thief sees two bikes on the street, he's going to steal the one without a lock on it because it's easier. If a bully sees a small shy kid next to a big loud kid, he goes after the shy kid. It's not fair and it sucks, but bad people take advantage of perceived weakness or increased opportunity. I had to teach my son, who is the smallest kid in his class, to be scrappy or else the mean kids try to beat him up.

However, MOST people aren't bad people. Most people wouldn't kick you when you're down. Most people will meet kindness with kindness. I know you might not think so, but human beings are largely altruistic. There are lots of good people in the world who will help you in your time of need. There are lots of good people who will support you when you're weak.

The trick is to only associate with people who treat you as you deserve to be treated. Of course, bad people will still try hurt you. They have to be weeded out. Good people can do bad things that cause harm to others, too. If that happen, you just have to put an end to the bad behaviour. If it doesn't stop, you cut that person loose and move on.

Yes, that's true in my experience too. However, this is often because the unhealthy person tends to exhibit behaviours that are isolating. The good news is that this is fixable. Anyone can learn good social skills, and good social skills will in turn help the person gain a larger network.

*Some* employers want that, yes. So maybe you're not well suited for Wall Street or working in sales. So what?

Each person can find a niche in life that works with his or her abilities. There are so many professions in which is is common if not completely standard to have uniquely skilled people with a different point of view. Think of all of the authors, artists, musicians, scientists, philosophers, poets, historians, designers, actors, producers, etc., who suffer(ed) from mental illness.

I know some people think so, but have they walked a mile in your shoes? SSI is there to help people. You shouldn't feel badly about needing help or accepting it. Those negative voices can stuff it, as far as I'm concerned.

If you haven't been able to find fully supportive people, you should keep looking. They're there, and sometimes in the most unexpected places. You never know if you have a kind neighbour or potential friend until you reach out to people. I know that's really hard to do when depressed and feeling down on humanity as a whole. Don't give up though. *hugs*

I think it is great that you're thinking about all of this stuff and trying to find a solution. You ARE smart enough. If you want to do something else with your life, the only person stopping you is yourself. Even if you have a breakdown, that's OK. You will recover. You are more resilient than you know.

I doubt I am going to learn what most people consider good social skills. For one it involves eye contact which is uncomfortable and prevents me from paying attention to what's being discussed if I try and look like I am making eye contact then I get too focused on that and still can't follow the conversation.

Not to mention I sort of prefer quality over quanity when it comes to people I know.

Nah, you can learn how to become comfortable with eye contact too. There are therapists that even specialize in that particular skill. It's not as important in groups though. You can just sort of glance over everyone's forehead without getting into a deep eye lock with someone.

I prefer quality over quantity too. Some people are just acquaintances and that's fine.

If there are so many people that would help and be supportive, why does one have to learn to essentially not attract 'bad' people, why is there never any effort in society to quite encouraging nasty behavior. I wish it was just a few bad people but it's really not that simple at least in my experience. Good people might go along with ostracizing the outcast so they don't get shunned or picked on themselves, good people might react with hostility towards somone who comes off as different from them. I just don't know if that is really true about most people and most people are probably somewhere between good and bad though even those terms are rather simple for the entire spectrum of human behavior. Also this entire society is all about getting ahead and being entirely self sufficient and independent not really much sense of a community.

Hmm easier said than done, for instance I live at my moms house with her and her boyfriend and her boyfriend isn't exactly a terrible person but we don't exactly get along and well to put it simply he's kind of an ***. But since he lives here to I can't cut him out of my life. Other then that a lot of family members can't help doing things that can make things worse for me a lot of times simply by having no concept of how it is dealing with the mental health issues I have.

Also I do not agree that I am stopping myself from doing something with my life. I would say its largely the symptoms of my mental health issues, that where unfortunatly contributed to by other people though I acknowledge the other factors as well though none of those are anything I chose....I think I have already spent enough time blaming myself for not doing something else or more with my life.

To me more breakdowns are not ok, I don't want to end up hurting myself or going to the psych ward again though I am not sure if any of those can be avoided even if I don't over-stress myself by thinking the cure to my problems is to try harder to quit preventing myself from getting somewhere in life.

No I actually can't, it is painfully uncomfortable and I can not process trying to make eye contact while paying attention to a conversation...trust me I had plenty of teachers and relatives try to force it out of me. As for things like glancing over everyones forehead than I have to somehow focus on that and the conversation so then I have no idea what the discussion is.

I would think if I could do that I would have learned to avoid feeling upset whenever people tried treating it like some misbehavior issue. People have to decide if they want me to hear what they say or focus on looking like I am making eye contact without actually doing so.

What passes as social skills is overrated. So is forcing yourself into painful situations just so you will appear "normal".

There are good people out there, but even they have a lot of flaws, that is just life. Good friends are people who happen to cross your path at the right time in your life.

I don't think it's a make or break situation. Eye contact can help, but it's not everything. Visually impaired people have friends too, and no eye contact is possible for them either.

What happened when you tried explaining this to your family, if you did?