Andrea Yates

I am watching it right now. it is very disturbing to me in that a pdoc interviewed her for 14 hrs and she admitted fully that she had planned this for awhile. she knew she was alone that day. she knew what she was doing and even her own attorney said she knew it. her defense really is that she thought she was sending her children to heaven. she thought up all kinds of things her children were in for...

pet.....that is interesting about Susan Smith. wonder if she created a "diversion".....and said she was beaten??? why, oh, why would i try to figure out how she thinks? anyway.....thank you for giving us that little news bit.....

candy, this has been a very good discussion. i really appreciate your bringing it up. as you know, i don't have television now and i'm keeping up with this through your thread. thank you......

and congratulations for getting that interview done! your resume shows what you are and can do. xoxoxo pat

Yates only had an hour alone time that morning... her husband left her alone even though the psychiatrist insisted she never be left alone. His mother wasn't even due to arrive for another hour.

Spiritual influences both negative and positive are very real, and can be very strong. Even without real spiritual forces, feeling that what you are doing is best for your children, in a religious sense, can be hard to deny.

sky, i'm glad you brought that hour up.....i thought that i had remembered that his mother was going to be there shortly after he left. she had time to kill the children. so.....he did go off knowing about the time lapse...

I think most ppl with her symptoms would have been in lock up (IMO) I would like to know more about the whys of her not being in hospital, and why the pdoc removed a med... and why no one else was included in the murder of these children!!!!! Can she sue the doctors? (oops did I just say that???)

Failure to extend proper care! grrr I'm tired. ttyl

anybody else wonder if the father was tired of the whole mess: sick wife, big family? "fix" it all by leaving, "just a little" early????

i've done a fair amount if irrational planning in my day. my brain has many compartments. "knowing" has different contexts within the different sections. sometimes my "knowing" (of the moment) is so swollen in me i could pop with the need to act. my brain goes into a rationalizing spin of justifications that, if i'm not thinking clearly, can yank me places my real rational brain would never, in a million years, go.

imo, susan smith connived. andrea yates shorted out. and shorted out and shorted out til there was nothing left in her but shorts and a desperate need to make her "it" stop.

when i consider how raw and immediate my memories right now are of my moment on the mount, i gotta tell ya, my arms still feel over my head, the weight of her tiny self, the texture of her clothes, that crying baby sweaty smell...... branded and still stinging and stinking in my heart, my mind, my soul.

Oh Godd, i am capable.

Nah, andrea yates will never be free. what she did is in her being on toooo many, levels toooo many times-- whether she's cognizant or not, some part(s) of her knows, and the torment of that can never go away. in my humble opinion. i would beg for the death penalty.

First, Candybear, I am fairly new here & didn't realize if you start a discussion you had to keep posting kinda like a discourse leader. I think just starting the discussion & letting it go is fine. No one seemed mad to me, just differences in experiences & opinions. That's a good thing. (Now I sound like Martha Stewart) We all need to get some perspective from other people's points of view.

Also, I agreed with the ones who said why was she let out of the hospital? That was my big question with my mother. I was just a kid & I could tell she wasn't in reality & was dangerous, so why didn't the docs protect us & herself by keeping her there?

CPS should have been notified. They take a dangerous dog out of a household if it bites someone, why not a mother who is threatening suicide & homicide?

The husband was probably in some sort of denial, too. He probably couldn't cope with his wife's illness & wanted to believe the doctors & meds had helped her.

This very issue of mental illness and criminal behavior is one of the reasons psychologist and Congressman Ted Strickland (D-Ohio and current candidate for Ohio Governor) and Senator Mike DeWine (R-Ohio) co-sponsored and passed the Mentally Ill Offender Treatment and Crime Reduction Act of 2004 (S.1194). This program "establishes a federal grant program to foster state and local initiatives that improve adult and juvenile nonviolent offenders' [emphasis added] access to mental health care during and after incarceration. The law also will support jail diversion programs, additional mental health courts and increased cross-training of police, criminal justice personnel and mental health personnel on appropriate handling of criminal offenders with mental illness." Before this bill, pilot demonstration projects across the country provided similar services. Their success in recognizing and diverting those with mental illness to more appropriate services and venues for prosecution led to the increase in funding and number of projects funded by the 2004 bill.

Five million dollars will fund this program intially. According to Marilyn Richmond, JD, assistant executive director for government relations in the APA Practice Directorate, the $5 million appropriated for the program is "a substantial increase over earlier funding for the original mental health courts program. It shows the significant support by members of Congress for increasing collaborative efforts among the criminal justice, juvenile justice and mental health systems."

I had the pleasure of meeting Sen. DeWine and Congressman Strickland when they were both honored by APA for their work on this bill and for the mentally ill over the course of their careers. I found both to be passionate and well-informed about the need for services and protection for this vulnerable population. It was a privilege for me to be able to thank them both in person for all of their efforts in decreasing the stigma and increasing the quality of life for the mentally ill.

I think this verdict shows a shift in the awareness of the courts and the public about mental illness. I can't help but think that's a positive thing.

And I can't help but feel tremendous sorrow for Mrs. Yates, her family, and loved ones. She obviously suffered greatly when psychotic, and with proper treatment as she is more rational again, she must be devastated by her actions.

That said, I also can relate to feeling angry and unforgiving towards someone who commits an abhorrent act. At the moment, I'm stuck in anger and lack of compassion for someone who did something heinous and shocking, even though I can find a part of me that recognizes the actions were a manifestation of this person's disorder. I just have no pull towards forgiveness or understanding, at least at the moment. So I can relate to the anger and abhorrence over Mrs. Yates' actions.

Quotes and content about S. 1194 from Monitor On Psychology Volume 37, No. 2 February 2006, published by APA.
http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb06/treatment.html

gg

gardenergirl

SKY POSTED:"I'm not posting to try and cause readers to begin to think just like me (though, I must admit at times I think that would be nice ) but to really begin deep thinking on things. This subject especially requires no less. imo."

Sky..I will have to admit you have me thinking..REALLY thinking..as you all do..but your comments have really got me digging deep..I am a pretty stubborn one..Can you tell?
Daniella..I admire the fact that you shared your story with all of us and how you have been to the point of feeling you "might" want to harm yourself or your children..all I have to say to that is..YOU DIDN"T..You pointed out the obvious fact that Yates was taken off of a certain drug right before she murdered her children and that this might have contributed to her "going over" and committing the crime..this makes me wonder if the Doctor that did this is somehow going to take some of the blame for her actions? Any mention of this..I thought I heard something from the family..can't remember? Again, my piont to Sky was..although Yates had a history of mental illness that does not nessarily mean that she was "insane"..their is a huge difference..and although she could have had a Psychotic episode, as you say, I find that hard to believe after everything she can remember and everything that she meticulously planned and laid out..Just my opinion though.

Sky..I have no doubt that this is going to turn religious on all fronts..you made a comment earlier about "The Prosecutor made the satement that there was no evidence to the idea that Yates was driven my Satan"
This is a hard one..because if he states that Satan is just Evil in its finest..and that Yates acted on that evilness..although he was trying to help the Prosecution..he actually helped the defense..know what I mean? The Prosecution wants to keep all religious ideology out of it..to bring it in helps the insanity plea..as it did..

CANDYBEAR...((((HUGS TO YOU))))) I know this subject must continually bring up bad memories for you..and I can't imagine what the outcome of the Yates trial did on your emotions... Looking at Mothers like you who choose a better route for their children is one more reason why people like Yates make me so angry..I only hope that you look at this forum and see that not only do a lot of people care about you and your feelings..but that you started a great topic that many are interested in discussing and arguing nicely!!

.......the mind is a terrible place to be lost....... drowning people will drown their rescuers in their desperation..... the place in the brain where despair lives, well, we don't know nothin' in my humble opinion..... I have watched eyepopping actions come from "normal" people who cross the line into despair. Fortunately they are usully not life threatening actions, but, baby, they are bizarre!!!

Despair is the location of hell on earth.

Gardengirl..again I am humbled!!..that is why I love talking about such things..I learn something new every day!! and for this I am grateful..my sorrow for Yates and her family is great..my anger as well..but I feel as if my understanding and insight into this situation has been greatly modified and opened..I guess I just am left feeling confused about everything..I do have much compassion for people and what happens to them..I come across as sounding like I don't when I talk about Yates..I am glad that awareness is being spread..don't get me wrong..but I feel that in some ways..it might be taken advantage of..and the people that REALLY could benefit and really NEED to benefit..won't..and others that don't need it..others maybe working the system in their favor?? I dunno..maybe this is just me thinking TOO much..

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Liv28 said:
I guess I just am left feeling confused about everything..I..but I feel that in some ways..it might be taken advantage of..and the people that REALLY could benefit and really NEED to benefit..won't..and others that don't need it..others maybe working the system in their favor?? I dunno..maybe this is just me thinking TOO much..

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I think this is a very confusing topic. It's complex and engages all kinds of emotions, beliefs, and thoughts. And I agree with you that there is a potential for abuse in the system when using a defense related to a mental illness. There is a similar issue about death penalties and people with mental retardation. All of a sudden many on death row are getting IQ tests and claiming they are MR. Fortunately, there is more to a diagnosis of MR than just an IQ score. That behavior is clouding and confusing the real issue of whether it's ethical to put someone to death who is impaired by MR. So yeah, I think similar approaches can and do happen already. And that's sad. And makes me angry.

Whoever convinced me that life got easier as I got older was obviously selling something.

gg

Thanks Jennie. I try.

Gardengirl..

I think that is MY real issue with everything..living in Texas and having all these cases of death row inmates that are all of a sudden innocent being set free..but they have spent half their lives on death row up until now..because the system felled them..and then there are the other cases where someone is OVIOUSLY guilty and they get set free..are out on the streets again the next day..because they have money for good lawyers and defense teams..This is why I am going into law..I haven't decided to do Criminal law yet..don't know if I can handle it..LOL..
Anyways..to me..faking it would be so simple..sounds sick huh!? hmmmmm..Makes me wonder if you can fake being mentally ill to the point where you pass..if you really ARE mentally ill?? lol..who knows..I just know that some can..I could if I had too..if youve been around it long enough you tend to know..right?

In partial (partial hospitalization) yesterday someone was outraged at my opinion on Mrs. Yates. This woman thought Mrs. Yates should be treated compassionately and in a gentle manner while I wholeheartedly disagree.

I mean I could understand it if it was more of an impulse thing or something but it sounds more and more like she knew what she was doing. I dunno.

Although I do believe she needs help, I don't believe that she should only receive hospitalization. I believe at least half of her sentence should be hospitalization and the second half (immediately after being treated so she could function) should be spent in prison.

I hear of so many mentally ill being charged, even if they are imcompetent or "out of it" and they don't get this break at all...they get the full extent of the law. I'm just wondering why some are treated one way and others another way...I dunno.

Just rambling on I guess.

Lexicon posted "I hear of so many mentally ill being charged, even if they are imcompetent or "out of it" and they don't get this break at all...they get the full extent of the law. I'm just wondering why some are treated one way and others another way.."

Kind of a double standard issue, isn't it?! Makes me wonder too!

Lex,
I agree with you. I think by letting murderers get off easy, copping out with the "mentally insane" plea, stigmatizes people who deal with mental illness, plus it encourages more crime, by the perp knowing they can get off with the insanity plea.
I don't deny some acts/cases are a result of insanity, but in general, people use it for every excuse to bring harm to another.
I just don't get the legal system, nor will I ever.
One of my professors for business law was a lawyer besides professor, we all couldn't believe and even told him so, how he can defend in court, a known,guilty, criminal, how does this man sleep at night?
He couldn't give a direct answer, but that detailed law has so many loopholes. Grrrrrrrrrr!
Oh well, another reason, I stay in my little world.
Don't get a newspaper (maybe Sunday's) and I do not watch much TV (too busy) just listen to music in the car, and take in the beauty around me,the countryside and it's wildlife.
Take care y'all,
DE

Liv, your contributions to this thread have been very interesting. I remembered a lot about this case, as well as Susan Smith, but haven't followed them nearly as well as you have. I appreciate the information.

Here are a couple more things to think about. If someone fakes being mentally ill to the point that they pass, what motive could they have for doing that other than being driven by mental illness? I remember looking through the DSM with the idea that I could pick pretty much anything in there, and I could have it, and it would be real. That seemed like a desirable thing to do. But why would someone want to do that? In my case at the time I had gone to counseling and been told that I was just homesick and getting married would cure it, and I knew inside that that was wrong, but felt that my problems weren't significant enough for anyone to care enough to really help.

Another point I would like to make is that being seriously mentally ill doesn't necessarily impair a person's memory. I remember how I felt and what I thought and what I did when I was in my darkest moments. I don't think I will ever forget, but I don't want to forget

Rap

Rap..I appreciate the comment..makes me feel better..sometimes I feel a little TOO outspoken about things.but that is just me..

My thing is, as I have shared with Sky and Jenne before, is even if you HAVE a mental disorder, and it could be serious..it doesn't, IMO, make you "INSANE"..to me..and this again is only my opinion..an "INSANE" person is..let's say..a Person who can not function day to day like a normal person..meaning every day activities..Andrea Yates, although she needed guidance, was doing these things..she was taking care of her children..they were being fed..clothed..and god forbid..bathed..I do know that many legally "insane" people are well capable of taking care of themselves..but are they capable of taking care of others..at a level that Yates did? Does this make any sense? I, no doubt, believe Yates was sick..she had to be to kill her own children..in my eyes I HAVE to believe that she was..but I do not believe she was insane. Two days ago I was all for the death penalty in this case..now I somewhat agree with Lexicon..IF, Yates was ever to be released to the general public..I think it should be to a jail cell..
Where do we draw the line?

Oh and my comment about faking being mentally ill was for gardengirl saying that they are passing new laws..I was just under the impression that criminals could maybe fake having a mental illness so that they could be protected..from the death penalty or life in prison and sent to a hospital like Yates was..that to me is a GREAT motive..and I gaurantee is already happening..People trying to screw with the system..take advantage..whatever they can do to lessen there punishment..

For clarification, my use of "insane" includes "temporary insanity" in the legal sense.

Gotcha..Darn you Sky..now I have to go think again..

Did anyone watch the program on tv last night? She admitted planning this for some time. She said she only had to wait until she was left alone with the children because if anyone was there with her they would stop her. That does not constitute temporary insanity. She knew what she was going to do for weeks before it. She knows all the details and in which order. My opinion here. She has a misconstrued idea of what her children might grow up to be like. She listened to a minister that was so far out there himself. Hence never put all your faith on one person ie: her minister. again just my opinion.

i am soaking up every detail that you divulge about the program last night. remember, i have no telvision.......and i so wanted to watch that...this enlightening discussion really has me going on the insanity pleas and how much planning she had done. i can't mesh those two ideas. i'd like more clear cut cases, please. the brain has to wrap around too many things that go against my moral fiber these days......feed me more details....please....xoxoxo pat

we covered susan smith, quite well..thanks pet, and there is still Scott Peterson and the "med" student who killed his wife and she was pregnant. (in Utah)....i'm with Sky.......anyone ever thought of walking away. i did. twice. off topic, a bit. but this discussion stirs all of this up for me.