Andrea Yates

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bebop said:
Did anyone watch the program on tv last night? She admitted planning this for some time. She said she only had to wait until she was left alone with the children because if anyone was there with her they would stop her. That does not constitute temporary insanity.

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I could be wrong, but I don't think "temporary" insanity was the issue here. She'd been treated for mental illness including psychosis for years, according to reports I'd seen. Someone who is severely depressed may plan suicide for days, down to tiny details. I certainly would not call that behavior that is free from the influence of a mental illness.

If temporary insanity was not an issue I wouldn't think she would have much of a case..

I personnally would like to think of other cases too Pat..There were two recently in Texas that actually started the laws to change for mentally ill criminals..it was because of these two cases that Yates is now in a hospital and not a jail cell or on death row..They actually said that..Two years ago..they never even would have blinked..never would have though about putting her where she is..I wish I knew what these two cases were..I would really like to see what they were about..anyone know? Happened in Texas..thats all I know..lol..not much to go on, huh?!

her new trial was over this week...she was found guilty on the grounds of temporary insanity. Nothing about what she said last night with the planning of this could be temporary insanity in my thinking. Temporary insanity to me means a very small time frame. maybe I am not wording this correctly to be understood. A sane person not saying not mentally ill person could not take this kind of time to plan. again just my opinion

I didn't realize that was the legal grounds in the decision. I just meant that in her case, there's no "temporary" to her insanity. Unfortunately, she seems to be a chronic sufferer.

gg

Candybear, first I'd like to say to you that I can understand how this whole thing must be so upsetting for many like you that have done the best for their children by giving the to a new home. And I think it's great that you are in touch with your son and his adopted mother.

Candybear--

Now on the subject of Andrea Yates..... and others that hurt/kill their own children. ...let's see.... I'm not too good at expressing myself..... What I've been wondering... and maybe someone has already brought this up-- but-- what if those five kids weren't hers that she killed-- would the courts have let her go so easy??? What if she ran a daycare and did that to five kids?? Isn't a LIFE a LIFE???

Is it more wrong to hurt anothers children than hurting your own???
To me its much WORSE--- they depended on her for safety and being nurtured!! It is the ultimate of deserving punishment--IMO--- but maybe this is just me and my background of an abusive mother.

mandy

Good point Mandy..very good point!! A life is a life..should it matter how it was taken? apparently now a days..there are a hundred different way for the law to tell you it does..

mandy I agree!! you are so right about that. had it been someone else's children she would be facing the death penalty for sure!

whoa! Mandyfins.........excellent point. i had not thought of that. a life is a life is a life. thanks, pat

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I could be wrong, but I don't think "temporary" insanity was the issue here. She'd been treated for mental illness including psychosis for years, according to reports I'd seen. Someone who is severely depressed may plan suicide for days, down to tiny details. I certainly would not call that behavior that is free from the influence of a mental illness.

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I think a lot of us have actually suffered from this ourselves. I know for years I had been diagnosed as such but I don't think in that state of mind I should be given a break just because my mental illness was severe. Sometimes I think this is just used as a way to escape responsibility for our own actions...kinda like Iraq when they were saying that their suicide bombings in New York were in the name of God. I dunno. (No, I don't want a religious discussion on that!) But I just don't think we should give anyone the benefit of the doubt when they've taken a life.

The area we really didn't discuss is the motivation ...the intense urging one senses when they believe they are following "God's" will. Without becoming religious or political, I think it should be addressed to complete the discussion. The same urge can be made of the recent suicide bombers, who feel they are following their God's will in destroying the enemy. While not completely the same, the kamakazi dive bombers also followed through with their acts because of the desire to serve the Empire, but also receive a heavenly reward.

Yates not only held to a desire for her children to go to "heaven," but she was determined to prevent them from going to "hell." She felt she was such a tormented and terrible person, that if she allowed her children to grow any more that they would be condemned (also?)

Remember Jim Jones? Certainly he was not only deranged, but religious in the effort. He obviously plotted and planned the terrible deed for quite a while.

Hmmm.

For all of these people of which you speak... religion might have been a factor........ though the Yates case-- in my opinion, shows pure cowardess-- in that--- Andrea Yates didn't kill herself like Jim Jones or the suicide bombers-- not that they rate any better... just that, at least they were willing to give up living too.

Andrea Yates just wanted 5 young helpless lives to stop...... what about herself?? the very idea that she didn't do anything to herself leaves me very skeptical......

I find it interesting that so much hypothesizing and projectiing is going on on this thread. So much dialog around things one can't imagine. What, it we can't imagine it, it can't exist? Where's John Lennon when we need him?

The dark side lives within us, each and every one. Comes with being human. Denying that doesn't make it go away. Instead of looking at Andreea and thinking, "I could never do that, (especially THAT way) so SHE couldn't either.", try exploring: "What would it take to put me there?" Try getting inside her head instead of trying to pull her into yours.(She won't fit.) I dare yas. Dig deep and try to imagine being that shorted out. Yer brain like worms in a frying pan. People expecting you to just "act normal for Christ's sake"........ knocked up again and again and again....... no safe space, no peace, no quiet, no break. For years and years and years.

Re: if she had done it to kids other than her own?? Even more nuts, not less. Nothing in this case suggests she would have hurt anybody if she had been cared for by those who knew she was ill. Denial in others set her up. The system set her up.

When I was growing up mentally ill, my mother thought about getting me help, but, in her words, "You always seemed to pull yourself back together again, so I let it go." People have the impression that mentally ill people are ALWAYS at their worst. That it it an endlessly active affliction, as though people with heart disease are always in an attack..... no, but they are always in fear of an attack....... everybody supports them in their hearthealthy regime between attacks.

I've found that, with mental illness, unless we are in full bloom, people like to pretend we're normal -- don't they??? C'mon, how many people in your life don't beleive you are as ill as you know you are???? I've had sooo many people tell me there's nothing wrong with me cause they can't see in here, can't imagine. Cracks me up. If they only knew!!! I'm a mess, I only go out when I can pass. Ya know.......?

OK gang, how's that for some food for thought? Hmmmmm?

I really like your "food for thought".

thanks hillbunnyb-- as usual your post is awesome!

I especially appreciate this:

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Try getting inside her head instead of trying to pull her into yours.(She won't fit.) I dare yas.

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And yea, I can relate to "You always seemed to pull yourself back together again, so I let it go." -- that's exactly my background too!

Thanks for your insight!
mandy

This comment may be a repeat but I truely believe the majority of accountability rests on the shoulders of her husband and the mental health professionals who let her get to this point. Hillbunnyb is on the right track, because most people around me don't see 'me'. Even when I try to explain to someone, how feel gets 'downgraded'. My family thinks I should just 'think' my way out of my darkness and it's a choice. When I hear those comments, I think darn, what am I doing, I'm choosing to be this way and try to 'pretend' a little harder which only makes me fall from a higher plain.

))))))) ) )))))))mandyfins and frozen(((((( ((((

I'm just coming to this thread late. I feel pulled in multiple directions. There is no doubt that her attempted drowning of five of her children that killed two of them, is heinous, almost unspeakable, but it's hard to say whether or not she was insane. Not one of us can know for certain.

I certainly believe that one could have one or two serious delusional thoughts, as a result of the psychosis, and still be functional. It's all a matter of belief... if Andrea truly believed that she was saving her children from Satan then she was insane. Think for a moment though. If you lived in a world where is was likely some monster would take and corrupt your children, might it not be better to kill them? That could have been the world she lived in. The fact that it bears little resemblance to the "real" world is evidence of her insanity.

I also wanted to bring up the matter of the insanity plea. Most of you talk about it being a free pass for murderers and other monsters. Although I am sure a few sane people can pull it off, I think very few. Overall it's not frequently used, though when it is used in very serious crimes it does make the news. I remember a guest lecture I attended a few years ago in my Criminology course given by a psychiatrist that worked in the forensic unit at Alberta hospital. That's where those who successfully use the insanity plea land.

The insanity plea is not used frequently, at least in Canada, only 1 in 100 cases. It is successfully used in only 1 in 100 of those cases. Most of the time the prosecutor and the defence agree on the plea. Those that end up in custody as a result of the plea spend on average 4 years in the hospital... but that's an average. Many of the people using the plea have done so for much less serious crimes, perhaps property crimes. Likely someone there for murder would spend a lot more time in hospital than four years.

After the length of time in hospital they spend more time under strict release conditions in the community, sort of like a parole I guess, and like a parolee they can be forced to reenter the hospital if they violate conditions, but unlike the parolee they can be rehospitalized for any reason the treatment committee deems necessary. Just a little food for thought.

I'm just coming to this thread late. I feel pulled in multiple directions. There is no doubt that her attempted drowning of five of her children that killed two of them, is heinous, almost unspeakable, but it's hard to say whether or not she was insane. Not one of us can know for certain.

all 5 of her children were drowned. not just 2.

I must have had the number wrong, but the number of children who died was not the main focus of what I said, so I find your focusing on it rather than what I really had to say not very appropriate.

Hillbunny..

Having sufferred with psychosis myself..and after watching my two younger sisters have them too..to the point of one of them thinking that one of her children was possessed by the devil..because God told her so and that she was seeing him and hearing him guide her to do the things she did...convinced her family that this 10 year old child was possessed, locked her away in a storage room, put an alarm on the door just in case she would try and get out, banned contact with other children, fed her only sparce meals in her room, away from the other kids..she had limited access to the bathroom..had to knock on the door if she had to go..threatening to give her away if she told anyone on the outside what was happening..oh dear lord how can anyone do that to a child and not be ill....it happens..the system lets ppl down..it broke my heart but when I could not reason with her to let someone else take custoidy of this child..I called CPS..and ya know what happened..CPS "oh she needs help (my sister)but she is not in immediate danger of being killed (my niece)".."Recommend counseling and treatment..but oh we cant force it on her".."The situation made the caseworker cry", but we cant do a thing about it our hands are tied by the letter of the law..her life has to be in immenent danger"..the report broke the family apart ..not what was meant to happen, I only wanted my sister to get treatment..but it like woke them up from this delusion that she wove where they started to believe that this child was evil..so her husband and other children, they refused to go along with her mistreatment of my Niece..and they left the house..he filed for divorce and the kids live with him..I miss my sister..she wont talk to me ever again...but I was not going to read about her and my Niece in the papers..now my Neice and the rest of the family has had counseling..my Neice from what I hear is at a normal weight for her age, and is making friends at school and her wounds are healing..she lives with my sister's ex, and her other children are so angry with their mother for making them do the things they did...but my sister refuses to believe she did anything wrong..because when you have God talking to you and telling you what your doing is right, how are you suppose to argue against that....its been two years..I hope her kids can understand she is ill, and it still hurts alot...I dont contact any of them..my Niece has tried..but when I hear her voice..I just cant..my sister ..I miss her so much..she really is a good person.she just needs help..My T helps me cope the best I can.he knows how much it hurt me..but a child shouldnt have to suffer and suffer.

But again...she had everyone convinced in the family what they were doing was ordained by God, because...she was receiving devine prophecy and visitation..and that all the family's problems were because of this one poor child...and the evil she brought into their lives..

and the State did nothing...but her caseworker did tell me to keep an eye on the situation..just in case it got worse..worse..for God's sake..worse?????

Evangelista your post is very moving. To me and this is again my opinion is that your sister told someone about her hearing God tell her. Andrea Yates did not tell anyone what she was or was not hearing. She planned out how she would do this. She said herself she waited until there was no one around her.
Your family took matters into their own hands to protect this child. I applaud them. Someone took the time to intervene. No one had that chance with the Yates children. The dad could have paid more attention to his wife's actions. Again there is a fine line between sanity and insanity as well. None of us will ever know for sure if Andrea was sane or insane. But again I feel that a person that is truely insane will not plan it out like that..temporary insanity is like a snap. it happens so fast I think. I am no expert though I will admit that to anyone.
I can feel your pain but you did the right thing in your case. More people should get involved in those kinds of issues.

Thanx Bebop..it does still hurt..but its ok..maybe my memory is fickled on the Yates issue..but I thought she had told her husband or that he had noticed something was not quiet right..I thought I had read he had some knowledge that her behavior was becoming odd..but then again its been along time since it made the headlines..its tragic any way you look at it..again thanks for the support..thought about deleting it because I am sorta raw with that issue..maybe why this thread struck a nerve and felt I needed to post it..

))))))) ) ))evangalista ((((((( ((

I've attended the vast most of 3 murder tirals. Even learning as much as any juror, or more because of being able to do outside research, one never learns "the whole story", "the whole truth" like on Dragnet. The real world is chock full of grey. Grey makes you think things out and out and out. Good exersize fot the grey matter. Hmmmmmmm?

Our legal system is built on "benefit of doubt". If you can't piece it together, let it go. HARD, huh?

Even in front of stacks of evidence, people see what they are looking for, trying to prove is true, rather than neutrally looking for truth. That's why pretrial publicity is so bad. People pick up impressions and try to fill those impressions out, pick and choose which evidence to believe unconsciously as much as consciously.

That's why there are 12 jurors. Hopefully each will get enough of the truth in them that behind the closed doors of the jury room they can reconstruct as close to true of what happened as humanly possible under the circumstances of a trial.

Truth takes time.

Evangelista yes her husband knew she was depressed. His mother was suppose to be with her when he was at work. She was running late that day. She never to my knowledge expressed the thought of harming her children.

I hope you find healing soon. You are stronger than you know hon!

<font color="darkblue">[b]I really don't focus so much on the insane/temporary insane idea...it was just another avenue of the story.

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people like to pretend we're normal

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How true this is. I personally believe Andrea Yates was and is mentally ill. Other's KNEW she was mentally ill: spouse, MIL, doctors and probably all the friends of the family, imo. She was the 900lb Gorilla in the room.

IDK but would like to know what the system had done, really, and what the reports from the doctors said, and why, why, why they made the decisions THEY did. The spouse obviously didn't respond as we would hope a caring, loving spouse would. We don't really know why. He didn't seem to really care, or see a threat, or maybe he was numb from caring???

Andrea Yates received her information from God somehow. Either the family was religious in nature, her's growing up, or the one she married into. That's another area I would like to know the truth about... where, and what church and all that. IDK other than psychotics who has this type of belief without some previous training.

I know many ppl who have real fervency for God. There are plenty of names from the secular world for what they do and how they act. None of them are mentally ill from the doing (though some might be "on the side.") In many realms, God does speak. If you have ever EVER "known" something that was in reality unable to know except through the supernatural... and had proof that what you "knew" later was true or happened... then you have an inkling of what it feels like, to know "the will of God."

I'm not declaring that Andrea Yates WAS hearing God's beckoning to send her children on to Him before they followed her evil and went to hell. But what is important is ANDREA believed He was. The compulsion is overwhelming.

Have you never become passionate about something? Can you gain an inkling of a feeling about internal motivation to perform? Can you imagine adding mental illness to the mix?

IDK why Andrea didn't also end her own life. That is probably the most puzzling thing for me right now. Perhaps since she "knew" she was already going to hell, why rush? IDK. I'll continue to think about this.

I'm sure there are stats about the number of ppl who plan their own suicide, or homocide, or even homocide-suicide. Are not these people also mentally ill? (Excluding those who self die due to having a fatal illness anyway.)

How many of us here have planned "something" out... for how many years? How many ways, how many times? Well planned, thought out. That's a rhetorical question, I don't expect anyone to offer up any admission. Would you consider anyone who is thinking about this to be mentally WELL? I don't.

Add in the desperation Andrea Yates felt. The urgency. When someone, even mentall ill person, has time -or feels they have time- to continue to think and work on their "plan" then it remains a plan... there has to be something that forces their hand, imo. Some feeling of NOW OR NEVER... some urgency... something that gives them the idea that things aren't going to get better...

Just more of my musing.