Boundaries, Respect, and Understanding

Running a community -- any community, whether it's a face-to-face support group of 5 people, or an online community of thousands -- is hard work. It requires daily efforts on the part of a half dozen or more people, including dozens more of dedicated, long-time members who have earned the community's respect and admiration for the time they spend here.

In every community, there will be conflict and people who simply do not get along with one another. It's inevitable. Nothing can be done to stop it. It is the nature of the complexity we share as human beings to like some more than others, and to dislike others actively.

In a face-to-face setting, one's options are fairly limited if you are forced to interact with someone you don't like. You can keep your interactions limited and brief, or you can tell them what you think of them in hopes they will change. But the latter will rarely result in the desired change, and will usually just increase the animosity and dislike.

The same is true in an online setting. Just because we're online, it shouldn't mean that we should just PM a person or vaguely refer to another member to dress them down or tell them what we *really* think. I always say, before writing something in one of these little text boxes, ask yourself one question -- Would I be as comfortable saying this to the person's face in real-life? If the answer is yes, please, go ahead. But if the answer is more likely no, then reconsider what you're thinking of writing.

But this simple (perhaps simplistic) advice goes beyond this community and the little reply text boxes in which we compose our thoughts. It goes to respecting the boundaries and limits we've purposely placed on our community. One of these limits is expressed in our Community Guidelines, which sets a sort of foundation of understanding one another here and each members' expectations of one another.

But another boundary perhaps isn't so clearly defined, and that's the boundary of taking what is said here and discussing it elsewhere.

We have no limits on such an action, but it's clear to me that such behaviors can be upsetting to some members here who want their words and actions to stay here, within the community. They don't want their words reproduced elsewhere, even anonymously, even just to make a point. I can understand that, and want to find a way to respect that, because that's the way it's always been here.

To me, what the issue really boils down to is simple respect. Respect of one another's thoughts, feelings, and words here. If someone knows you don't want something done, but does it anyway, they are saying, "I understand your wish, but I don't respect it."

We come together in a community of caring and support. This is not a place for academic debate, for in-depth discussion and analysis of research and whether one treatment is proven more effective than another. While certainly some of that goes on here, it is *not* the community's main purpose.

So I ask each and every one of you, even if it comes as second nature to you, to please continue to show respect for your fellow members, even those members you dislike. Respect is a cornerstone of the place we've built here, and when I see it being slowly eroded by a stray action here by this member, or an unthoughtful or unthinking word there by another member, it really hurts.

There is no single, huge issue that brings this post on. Instead, it's a culmination of a number of smaller, but constant smaller issues that seem to continue to rear their heads and create a quality-of-experience issue here for some members. I would like members to take a step back, take these words to heart if you see yourself in any of them, and remember that the next time you go to post something or PM someone about something, or write something somewhere else.

As always, thank you for your continued support -- it is much appreciated.

DocJohn

Wise words from a wise man.

Thank you, Doc.

Jan

Thanks Doc John. -

I know you are not talking about any ONE member and I am going to place MY OWN EXPERIECES with this.

if you would not say this in real your real life then it shouldnt be posted is is something That I have said many times before.

As for respecting others and what they say and not take it outside this group I have that respect to a point sometimes I have had aproblem on line that I cannoit solve without going outside the group plus the fact that -

this is an open to the public community. that means that if someone is placing something on the boards then ALL of the world wide web already has access to that information so whether or not I take information outside this community boards and chat room for example post a summary of the posts here and a subject line of the community boards here on my blog, that is not stepping beyond confidentiality because those that access my blog are already coming in here member or not reading those volluntarily placed posts.

I do agree placing the posters names within my blogs is not right. But because its a public community and no one is forcing anyone to post their personal experiences there is no confidentiality problem.

yea I agree taking names outside the community is not being very respectful for example - last night on a different website I happened to be the topic of conversation and those on that site talking about me came here and copied my posts and blog most likely without being members. I didn't tell them what they did was wrong and so on because this site is open to the public so they were well within their rights to do what they did and knowing this happens I never place anything in my posts and blogs that I would not say to anyone in my real life face to face and that includes those people I have met on line in my many on line support groups that I attend.

But anyway when that kind of thing happens it can be uncomfortable for both the person who is doing this and the person being talked about because on line no one ever knows who is members of what website and that the people that are being complained about are not actually the people that the person complaining is not right at that moment talking to. That person that was complaining about me last night had no idea that I was the person that they were complaining about because on each of my support groups I use a different log in name.

the way I handle being in other on line support groups is that just like when I am here I dont say what the support group name is that I am in is that I am having a problem on and I don't say names or who I am having a problem with.

If my friends on other on line groups ask for a name and site I tell them that is not important its on line and therefore can be happening at any on line support group and with any on line support group member. What is important is I have this problem and would like ideas to solve this problem.

There are three ways to look at this:

A. You do not have the right to post names or thoughts/feelings/ect. of the people from this site for the simple reason of respect towards the person who posted them in the first place. It is THEIR thoughts, THEIR feelings and so on. Simply put, it's disrespectful.

B. You have full right to post names and the afore mentioned words simply based on the fact that there is no one or rule set forth to stop this practice in any way.

C. You have the right to post anothers words without their identity based on the fact that since names are NOT used, The words become anonymous; Therefore, it is not disrespecting wishes.

While I whole heartedly disagree with "B" and "A". You can draw from this that I agree with "C". I agree with "C" because since the words become anonymous, It's no disrespect. It's anything we could do to stop someone from posting our words with our names. Let alone without. If someone can come here without registering and just look at the handles along with the posts, I see no disrespect in posting just the words elsewhere. If anything, it's a measure of respect for the writer of said words, not disrespect. "simplisticly" put: If you don't want your words posted elsewhere, anonymous or not, don't post them in a place where anyone can come, copy and paste just as easily as one would twitch a finger. Period.

I agree with "Myself" on this one.
-Michael-

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C. You have the right to post anothers words without their identity based on the fact that since names are NOT used, The words become anonymous; Therefore, it is not disrespecting wishes.

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Disagree 100%! If I read my words elsewhere, or intimations of things I've said in private, I feel disrespected, misunderstood, violated and TRIGGERED.

If my words were repeated in public, what's to say that the same person didn't repeat my name to others in private... and just how many others?

Thank you, Doc John! Once again, on the side of reason.

But the statement has been made that what we are doing by posting here is the equivalent of sending a postcard thru the mail that anyone can read, and it's open season regarding our posts....so, in essence, what we say here is certainly not "private," September, unless you are referring to PM's.
I too am concerned about this.
Patty

This is not about PM's. This about things you post on message boards. It is public for all to see. Don't want people to read? Don't post. that simple.
-Michael-

I think it's pretty difficult for someone we know to find us if they're looking for a way to trash us, unless, of course, we inadvertently tell them where we are. I've done that not realizing that the person would actually join this MB and stalk me! She still reads what I post, but at this point, I don't care very much anymore.

As for someone Googling my name, all I could find a few months ago is an article I wrote for the now defunct newsletter.

Someone on another thread said that it now takes two clicks of two different links to find us. Most people won't do that.

What bothers me more than anything is when you tell someone something in confidence in a PM and in just a few, short seconds it appears on the board minus the name. For some people, it doesn't take long to add 2+2 and they realize what's going on.

This has happened to me, too. It's aggravating, to say the least and triggering to the point of influencing my 3D life, at most. To me, that's playing dirty pool. I won't stand for it.

I have talked with a lot of concerned members about this, and from what I understand:

Yes, everyone realizes that this isn't a 100% private site.

But, they feel that it is hurtful to deliberately ignore their requests to not have their posts republished.

I googled my nic and a bunch of other radio_flyers came up, but not one was me... There was nothing I could find that linked me to what I posted on Psych Central. And this is good ..

And again I say to you, <font color=red>[i][b]If you do NOT want your posts to be seen. Do NOT post them. PERIOD.

Unfortunately posts are not 100% private...wish they were...but we can respect people by not being the one to spread them around...I promise I will not spread them around...I will only give support if I can...!!

> We come together in a community of caring and support.

Sure.

> This is not a place for academic debate, for in-depth discussion and analysis of research and whether one treatment is proven more effective than another. While certainly some of that goes on here, it is *not* the community's main purpose.

Er... I have no idea what you are responding to here... But... I would have thought that those two things don't have to be exclusive.

I post to support sometimes...

Mostly... My form of support is in the form of in-depth discussion and analysis of both research and theory. Treatment efficacy is also important when people are trying to figure what they best do in order to improve.

Like I said, I don't think that those two things have to be mutually exclusive.

But... That is the form of support I typically offer.

Take it or leave it.

As I said, this is not directed at any particular member regarding any particular situation.

If you respect other members here, you will respect their wishes.

Falling on, "Don't post it here if you don't want it to be public" kind of misses the point. It's not about public disclosure versus private disclosure. It's about feeling safe here in the community to say things you know will only be read by other members of the community (hence the reason we prevent search engines from indexing these forums).

If you don't understand this line, or the purpose of this line, you need to PM me to discuss privately.

Thanks,
DocJohn

Ok...

But it seems to me that you can respect someone...
You can respect their wishes...

But still choose not to act to fulfill their wishes.

Depends what their wishes are, of course.

Weighing pros and cons when wishes diverge etc etc.

I guess this is a specific message after all...

Peace.

Years ago in 12-Step I learned a very useful saying that applies well to online groups and r/t ones, too:

"What you see hear, what you say here
When you leave here, let it STAY here."

Simple and effective. IMHO, many people on here have already been violated in some way. They need a SAFE place to unburden without fear. Maybe this site is the first time they have had the courage to really open up and share. By not respecting that need it could trigger someone, perhaps make them close back up again and not share at all, a second violation in a sense. If you take things posted on here and use them to hurt or harm in some way, then you are, IMHO, invalidating the founding premise of this site, which is to be a place of support and caring.

Respect of an individual should be a basic, independent of whether or not you personally like an individual. Period.

Thank you, DocJohn and all the moderators for a great site full of useful resources. You are appreciated.

SFK

Ahhhhhhhh.

Sure, I understand about respecting people's confidentiality and privacy (sorry I missed the point).

Yeah... I value that a great deal.

With some things... Respecting anothers wishes does mean honouring anothers wishes, sure.

You know, it has been a long time sine I have come to the site and checked up on the ones I dearly love and miss on here.

This type of post makes me want to stay even futher way as the "respcet has not changed" sine I last lefe

I guess it is hard because different people have different ideas of where appropriate boundaries are...

And different people have different notions of what it takes to show respect...

And different people have different abilities to understand things from anothers point of view to really understand how strong someones desires can be.

I've posted on a few message boards... I find that there is (invariably) a considerable variety of people on the message boards. Not just mental health ones either.

Sometimes people transgress the boundaries of other people - but they really didn't mean to cause offence / upset. Sometimes people are ready to interpret that someone meant them harm (because people have meant them harm and harmed them before). It can be hard...

I've felt like I've had my trust / confidence etc breeched from most every site I've posted at. It can be hard... Oh so hard at the time... To try and think that mostly people mean well and they didn't mean to hurt (though it is true they will likely get defensive if i have a go at them). And when people do wish me harm... It can be oh so hard to remember that... Everyone has issues. And the people who hurt (whether accidentally or intentionally) Well... They are probably the ones who need the most help...

Life is funny sometimes (funny strange not funny ha ha). People can be funny. The power to help... When people respond kindly. The power to harm... When people respond (perhaps unthinkingly) from their own stuff.

Sometimes I wish I could withdraw from the world and never let people hurt me again. But sometimes other peoples kindness is what keeps me going in life.

Hard to find the balance... I don't know. Just rambelling really. Sorry.

Yes, strange how a support site can cause one to feel so much hurt. Life is harsh enough, I fail to see the point in going that extra distance and (deliberately) hurting people online.

Is it wrong to expect at least a minimal amount of respect and/or decency, especially from a support site? Apparently it is.

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myself said:
this is an open to the public community. that means that if someone is placing something on the boards then ALL of the world wide web already has access to that information so whether or not I take information outside this community boards and chat room for example post a summary of the posts here and a subject line of the community boards here on my blog, that is not stepping beyond confidentiality because those that access my blog are already coming in here member or not reading those volluntarily placed posts.

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If they are already reading it and have access why would I or anybody else feel a need to take it elsewhere???


Myself said:
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I didn't tell them what they did was wrong and so on because this site is open to the public so they were well within their rights to do what

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Just because it is legal does not make it "right".

If a person's post was important to my recovery I would not disrespect them by using their words without asking. If it is not important to my recovery then what would be the point except to cause pain and hurt.

This of course is just MY opinion.

Before I say something negative (as defined by me, may not seem negative to the other but if I "intend" negative) to another person I use my imagination and think, "What if I'm wrong and they're right?" That usually puts me in the other person's shoes well enough from my own perspective that I stop and "shrug." If I don't care for someone's posts then I figure I can "not care" enough to not bother replying :-) The other person doesn't really know me, we're not friends, what difference does it make in my own life what they think (not like I can change them and what they think anyway). I'm sure there are scads of people in the real world who don't think like I do (No, Perna, say it ain't so! :-)

I agree with the saying " What is said Here SHOULD stay here, when your in a group IRL, this would be called Breach of Confidentiality
What I post here should stay here

There is no breach of confidentiality in this case. Anyone can come and look. Hell, I found this place on google with minimal effort, and it only took two clicks to get to the forum. (Once on the google link and once on community) something anyone with two brain cells can figure out. Let alone a determined individual. There is no reason, why someone cannot make reference to words here. I understand that private posts to other members are confidential. But, anything you post in public, the public can see. So, I see no reason why a little copy and pasting is so bad w/o handles.

-Michael-