Nurture?

To nurture adults effectively, a delicate balance between support and more "assertive" caring is needed.


How do you think nurturing of adults takes place and when is the "line" to "codependency" crossed?

I'm afraid this is too deep for a frog of little brain. I have enough trouble just keeping myself out of trouble. Can't say as I have ever been faced with that type of situation so don't know how I would react.

I am curious what others think.

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Fuzzybear said:
To nurture adults effectively, a delicate balance between support and more "assertive" caring is needed.


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Fuzzwad, the best example I can think of is the relationship between you and I. When you have a specific problem with someone, I validate your feelings (support), give you hugs and hearts (nurture). I even share some of the same feelings with you, and then tell you to ignore that person, or to do something to destract yourself from thinking so much about that particular problem.

When I get emphatic about you needing to stop a train of thought, obscessing about a certain occurance, etc., that is more "assertive" caring.

There is a lot more I could do in that area, but I don't feel that it's my place to do so because I don't know you in 3D and I'm certainly NOT qualified, but it's all done in my love for you.

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How do you think nurturing of adults takes place and when is the "line" to "codependency" crossed?


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This is Webster's definition of "codependency":

a psychological condition or a relationship in which a person is controlled or manipulated by another who is affected with a pathological condition (as an addiction to alcohol or heroin); broadly : dependence on the needs of or control by another

For me, it's not an issue of codependency. It's more an issue of "enabling". To continue to tell you over and over that you are right in the way you think or your perception of things, even though I know you aren't, is Enabling.

Neither you nor I have the need, in our relationship, to control the other. There are many people that do, though. Either they NEED to control you or NEED to be controlled by you (generally speaking). One, or both, are controlled by the emotions of the other person.

To "Nurture" someone, IMO, is to give them the things that were lacking in their childhood... if we're speaking of mental illness of any kind. If it's a relationship between two mutually healthy adults, then the giving and showing of affection, respect, consideration, to encourage them in what is best for them is nurturing... at least to me. (Remind me to tell you about "Jake" sometime. )

DISCLAIMER: This is to the best of my understanding. I'm sure there will be others that can explain it much better than I.

(I was once reamed a new one by a psychologist when I used the word "paranoid". He told me I should never use psychology terms so loosely. I still hold by my statement, though! )

Codependency is when 2 people "co" both "use" each other in unhealthy ways. So, it's much harder to get codependency on here. I don't think nurturing can become codependency. We all need nurturing and attention and that's on a continuum so some people want/need more and other's less; kind of like various other "vitamins" :-)

Wouldn't it be nice if there were nurturing vitamins? I guess in a sense there is, because the more we take care of ourselves, eat right and exercise and go to therapy and join other activities and talk to other people (like here at PC) the less likely we are to be codependent because we don't have enough "room" for that other person who takes up too much of our time either trying to get from them or trying to "give" to them inappropriately so we can feel good.

My husband has the absolute best way to nurture me without enabling or creating codependencies.

When I am having a hard time with something that I know I need to change about myself, he quietly hugs me for a long time, then tells me to "now go ahead and do it". I know that I have his support, but he doesn't coddle me in any way.

cool question fuzzy and something i'm working on right now... the whole mom/son thing because mom's handicapped, but she still can do some things... like cook, make a small loan at times, reach the scratch i can't...

i had to prove to myself i could be independant... when i knew that for certain i returned to care for my mom with day to day work her handicap prevents her from doing... it needs to be done... i mean, just taking the trash out is a monumental task for her... ice, snow, wind... her nightmare is having to drive somewhere in moderate weather.. it requires fierce physical endurance to keep her balance...

i run to the liqour store for her... she's drinking a lot less... i talk to her about PC and healing... i see her everyday... but i don't believe i'm co-dependant... she just needs me...

i resisted moving in with her... heard far too many "still lives with his mother stabs"... but it is just reality... it is the best i can do for her by living there... she's cool... gives me all my space, respects and loves me... still trys to mother me at times... i try to pause before i answer... not say the first thing that comes out of my mouth (do you think i'm still 15?)... she needs to do it... and at times i still need her...

co-dependant?... i just think it's the it works best... sometimes i wonder what else i'd be doing if not for her... maybe nothing good... maybe something good... i just don't know right now because this is where its at.... right now...

That's a good question, Fuzzy, and there have already been some good answers which I hope have helped you

I agree with Sept Morn's definition of 'support' and 'assertive caring'. It is easy to support somebody. All you have to do is agree with what they say, and voila, the person feels better. However, the support has to be *effective* - ie the person has to benefit from it. A person can be supported in many things, but the whole idea of support is that a person will feel stronger from receiving support and will ultimately emerge better equipped than before. Some support can be damaging though. You could support somebody in their plan to kill somebody or their own body. You could support somebody in, say, making a decision which might result in bad consequences. So the person giving the support has the potential to 'make or break' somebody - though any decision is still up to the person being supported.

However 'assertive caring' is, I would say, when you step in if you think the person being supported is perhaps 'straying'. For example if the person is severely paranoid and thinks the police are spying on their every move - you could point out that it's not so likely, what have they done to warrant such behaviour by the police (if the person is completely law-abiding), etc - whereas in supporting somebody you might just listen to them and not really challenge their views.

I had never thought of it before, but it really is a fine balance. 'Assertive' caring is, I should think, far more effective than just supporting a person. However assertive caring is far harder in some situations, such as online, simply due to the distance involved - not knowing the person involved, not knowing the full circumstances, nor their past history, nor the context and other minor things like other people involved and their characters. So it is easier to give support online, but still possible to give assertive caring - but I think it is less likely to be effective since there is less likely to be a personal bond between the two people (since they do not literally know each other) and so the caring may not be fully beneficial to the recipient. There is also more potential for misunderstandings online too.

How do I think the nurturing of adults takes place... well I think the ideal situation would be for both to be in a stable relationship (not necessarily with each other) and that both would be able to effectively 'assertively care' for the other - they would be able to point out each other's flaws in a kind manner, so the other wouldn't feel humiliated but would feel able to tackle the problem. The other person would give *support* in aiding the other person, but basically the onus would be on the person working out their problems and doing something about it, feeling strengthened by the other person.

Co-dependency, from my understanding of it, is when a person no longer is fully independent - they come to rely on another person, seeing them more as an extension of themselves (as, I think, my relationship is with my father). So it is hard to be fully independent. Both rely on each other to fulfil their needs of support, and encouragement, but it doesn't always work because they are bound too closely together emotionally and it is hard to achieve sufficient emotional distance to change behaviours and habits. A person's behaviour is modified both by the other person's behaviour and by the other person's anticipated behaviour, so much so that it restricts their own emotional and intellectual freedom. Emotional development tends to stagnate and there is little experiment outside the co-dependent relationship in developing healthy relationships because of the consequences it will have on the relationship. It is altogether binding and hard to shake free of, because the other person resists the change in the relationship.

So when is the line crossed? It can probably not be applied to all relationships as a rule because it's handling different variables. However when I suppose you come to rely on one person to supply many needs - friend, confidant, etc - it becomes less of a 'two people and one relationship' but more of each person relying entirely on the other, with non-conformism discouraged.

This is my view on it anyway - and it's possible I have not understood co-dependency in its right meaning. I hope what I've written helps anyway - it's certainly long enough!

Excellent question, Fuzzy. Some people would say that a lot of the support we do here crosses the line. You know, like when we tell each other things like "it's okay that you messed up - you did the best that you could do, don't feel bad about it." Sometimes maybe it's not the best they could do, and if we tell them not to feel bad they are more likely to do it again instead of trying harder to cope in a better way next time.

I came from a codependent family. My mother seemed to like keeping her kids as dependent and incompetent as possible, because taking care of people makes her feel worthwhile. Any time what we do for someone helps them or encourages them to be dependent or helplesss or less than they really could be, maybe we ought to take a better look at that and see if we are really helping them in the long run. My mother really thought she was helping, even though she did a lot of damage trying to help that way.

Therapists maintain good boundaries. They expect us to do things for ourselves and to reach and grow towards our potential and be our best selves. They aren't supposed to make us feel good about staying where we are, or do it for us, as much as we want them to sometimes. They don't tell us what we want to hear. They do provide a lot of nurturing though, by validating feelings and showing us what we could do for ourselves, and helping us to get our needs met, including developmental needs that weren't met when we were kids.

Maybe the difference is mostly in the results. If a person stays stuck and dependent and keeps doing the same things and wanting to be validated for being stuck and dependent and not changing, and if what we say or do encourages that, then it might be kind-of co-dependent. If what we say or do fills a need and encourages the person to make changes and do things for himself or herself, then I think it's nurturing. Sometimes what is nurturing for one person might encourage dependence in another person, because not everyone has the same needs or the same abilities or is at the same place right now. So, it's pretty tricky to know what is really the best way to help any given person.

maybe i don't know enough about co-dependency. what if you're disabled and depend on others for things that you can't do. like, for example, i can't drive. i depend on my hubby to take me to places. of course, if it's in town, i will go by bus to ease up on the load on my hubby. it's not that i'm not willing to drive, but strange things happen if i drive. it's too dangerous that way, not just for me, but for others as well. i felt a responsibility to stop driving for that reason.

Co-dependency is not helping people to get their needs met and do the things that they need to do to go about their lives or be safe and healthy. Co-dependency is enabling people to maintain destructive habits or ways of doing things, or helping them to avoid living their lives and being their best selves. What may be a co-dependent way of 'helping' one person might be just what someone else needs. It all depends on what that person appropriately can and should be doing for himself or herself. The level of support that my clients with IQs from the teens to the low 60s need and receive is appropriate for them, because it is what they need, but would be co-dependent and inappropriate were someone to try to give me that same level of support, because I can do more for myself, and should. Make sense?

Good post. Doing for someone else what they can do for themselves.