[shezbut]

What are the differences between the post-traumatic stress disorder and borderline personality disorder (symptom-wise)??

I can see that I was a full-blown BPD case several years ago, but apparently no longer fit into that diagnosis. Doctors now classify me as being suffering PTSD and major depression. I feel confused and need clarification. Can you help?

[Open Eyes]

Well shezbut, often times if a case of PTSD is considered complex which comes from extreme childhood trama, often that child can express symptoms of what appear to be borderline personality disorder and it is really PTSD. And often the way a child is raised if abusive can present the condition of borderline personality disorder. That is why it is important that those with this disorder get treatment and therapy because they have to learn to overcome it. With PTSD that stretches back to a person's childhood there can a display of need, lack of trust, difficulty maintaining relationships, outburst of anger, then lows of tears and even days of depression. So what is often truely a case of PTSD is very often mistaken for borderline personality disorder, Bipolar disorder, manic depressive, and even just depression. It is really important to cover as much of the early childhood as possible so that someone can be diagnosed properly.

As PTSD continues to be researched in the different ways it presents itself and the symptoms that are suffered, they are starting to notice the mistaken previous diagnoses that were given to patients, especially in the past because so little was known about PTSD. As they are studying the brains of children that have suffered childhood tramas they can see changes in the brain that don't appear in children that come from healthier environments.

For the older generation, it can be troubling because there really wasn't as much recognition and treatments for PTSD. Therefore therapists and psychiatrists just misdiagnosed it with other disorders. The older generation, and even many children today can grow up in disturbing situations that present psychological problems that they are truely not aware of. Most of us just thought we were just supposed to deal and grow around the disfunctional charectoristics of parental behaviors. So often many of their depressive thoughts and lack of self esteem is truely homemade and they are just confused.

I have not studied borderline personality disorder in depth, but those that I have met and spoke with in any length reveal some very troubling childhood memories. So I do wonder if they are truely borderline PD, or have PTSD or it could be both depending on their history. It really is sad how much damage can happen in childhood that can present so many difficulties later on. Do some children flourish anyways, yes, but many don't and do need help later to sort it all out.

I hope that helps shezbut.

Open Eyes

[shezbut]

Thank you for the informative post back, Open Eyes. I appreciate it!

[Open Eyes]

Your welcome shezbut, I came across that in my research on PTSD that is more current.
Ofcourse I am not a professional but sometimes the professionals don't necessarily stay current. It sounds like you have a therapist with a different opinion than other ones you might have met. Maybe you will find some answers to deeper concerns you might have about yourself. Make sure you ask them too. I think it is important to do our own research along with what our therapists express in their ideas.

But your very welcome to my opinion.

(((Hugs))) Open Eyes

[Fuzzybear]

[BrokenNBeautiful]

I was diagnosed with bpd but I think I actually have ptsd.

I am learning emotional regulation in case of my symptoms, however I believe ptsd is actually what I have.

I did tell the doctor who diagnosed me in 2001? 2002? that I thought I had ptsd and he said, "Oh, Billi, that's just part of your bpd." But the point was my ptsd was not addressed; I was only medicated and intimidated and unbelieved, which made me even worse and more untrusting and did NOT address my issues.

thanks for this thread.

I had to self-diagnose myself because no one so far has believed me (in the helping field).

and it (my self-diagnosis) feels RiGHT.

Because I am recovering.

Billi

[Open Eyes]

((((Billi)))
Well, I am no expert, but I know from my own experience I was misdiagnosed, but not with bpd. However, it is possible to have both. If you have borderline you can learn ways to help yourself in relationships, often that is a very difficult area for bpd patients, however so is PTSD. I am sorry that your having trouble with therapists, I know that problem it can be hard to find a good therapist that you can mesh well with, after all it is important to trust your therapist in order to enter into a good therapy program.

I really suggest that you keep trying, perhaps see if you can find a therapist that specializes in PTSD. You truely cannot diagnose yourself, both bpd and PTSD do require therapy, it truely makes a difference.

((((Hugs))))billi
Open Eyes

[BrokenNBeautiful]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

((((Billi)))
Well, I am no expert, but I know from my own experience I was misdiagnosed, but not with bpd. However, it is possible to have both. If you have borderline you can learn ways to help yourself in relationships, often that is a very difficult area for bpd patients, however so is PTSD. I am sorry that your having trouble with therapists, I know that problem it can be hard to find a good therapist that you can mesh well with, after all it is important to trust your therapist in order to enter into a good therapy program.

You truely cannot diagnose yourself, both bpd and PTSD do require therapy, it truely makes a difference.

((((Hugs))))billi
Open Eyes

Thanks.

I disagree about "truely cannot diagnose yourself", though. As I have said before, therapists really give me the weirds right now. I have had quite enough of them and beating my head against a wall, esp. in a system where I cannot afford quality care.

I know my own mind intimately now.

I can diagnose how I am.

I may not be "qualified" officially, but I do know myself now. More than I ever have.

And I am learning techniques to deal with my emotional regulation.

thanks,

Billi

[BrokenNBeautiful]

Originally Posted by billi_leli

I am recovering.

I am!

Billi

[beauflow]

Shezbut -- thank you so much for this thread- this too has been a pondering question of mine on the difference.

Open eyes- that is some really good explaining.

I know I have not gone into depth studing with Borderline, but it appears on what I have read- most borderline personality disorder dx's do have PTSD from child hood; but I still don't fully get it-- i think I may pick my therapist brain one day- or maybe this pdoc i will see here soon after my first session due to i would like some more understanding on the difference.. I suppose it would be how the reactions are of one as they grow and thought patterns but again I am seeing so many similarities in both PTSD and Borderline...

Billi Leli-- I hope you well- I agree that Some people can self dx, and in any ways- what do labels mean if you yourself have found ways to help yourself be better!

TO all: I hope you all the best and to recover.

[lido78]

Open Eyes -- In reading your description of PTSD above (display of need, lack of trust, difficulty maintaining relationships, outburst of anger, then lows of tears and even days of depression), I'm just wondering how severe the childhood abuse must be for this diagnosis to apply. I display all of these symptons (except the depression is more like anxiety) but have never been diagnosed with anything other can occasional mood swings.

Recently, at work, a co-worker suggested professional help after she'd noticed my mood swings (including outbursts of anger followed by tears)...then I saw this post and it got me thinking. I don't know exactly what consitutes an abusive childhood so I'd just considered myself the product of my parents' divorce and the typical fighting that goes along with it.

I've been hesitant to go back into therapy as my parents are now elderly (mom is 76 and dad is 82)....I really don't want to dredge everything up again (from 30 years ago) when I'd much prefer these years to be ones of forgiveness and comfort for both them and me.

I definitely have difficulty regulating my emotions, especially during times of stress.

Shezbut...I hope that this is not hijacking your original post too much...but reading through the responses has me thinking and in need of a bit more clarification.

[Open Eyes]

lido,
Depending on how old you were when your parents divorced, what you witnessed while growing up in their behavior, what kind of attention and sense of comfort you recieved can make a difference in what kind of person you, yourself became.

I am not suggesting you harbor bad feelings for your parents or blame them for how you turned out, which often DOES happen. The fact that you are forgiving them and making efforts to connect with them as you are older is not bad at all. In fact the forgiving is good.

But the depths of you can contain some deep troubled areas that you may not be consciously aware of. Many children grow to hate or resent their parents because the parents made life choices not really considering the child. Or, the child often feels that they were not loved or important enough in major decision making of their parents. This reaction is normal, and can be expecially difficult when parents separate if thier child is anywhere from 10 through early teens.

lido, the human brain is designed to learn, and log memories, emotions, and images in order to remind us of danger, good things, when things are safe, how things should be, more than we consciously realize in order to survive and thrive, as well as teach our own offspring. The other thing that our brains carry is a capacity to absorb emotional signals that also signal good/bad/danger/etc.

So what happens when children grow up around parents that are very unsettled in their relationship and through off troubling signals of insecurity, anger, sadness, confusion, and even anxiety. Unfortunately, the child in this environment simply absorbs all these confusing signals as well.

When parents end up breaking up, not resolving their issues and divorce and begin surviving on their own in confusing and troubling ways, that too is absorbed by their children. Children are designed to be sponges, meant to learn and absorb and this is what they carry for the rest of their lives to help them thrive and survive.

When I talk about Bipolar disorder, Borderline Personality disorder, Obsessive Compulsive disorder, and a variety of anxiety disorders, including PTSD which is another disorder. Well, these disorders can develope in childhood as a reaction to a troubling atmosphere, signals, etc. that are given off by their parents. Often the child is truely not aware of how these disorders form and reminders of any sense of bad, insecurity, etc. can give them sudden senses of anger, sadness, depression (low self esteem, constantly questioning self worth) and even a desire to super motivate themselves into producing postive results in their environments, which can be somewhat obcessive and compulsive that they simply do not understand. I would describe it as behavior patterns that try to make up for the insecurities of what a child experienced growing up. ( However it is possible, as science suggests that a child can be born with these disorders, at least that is what is said now)

A child can develope Borderline Personality Disorder which is a personality type that constantly needs, however tests all partners in wait for abandonment. It can seem like a sick game, it can start by a pattern displaying "how a child now grown has achieved skills, professional standing, etc) and as an adult it can show up in a kind of grooming a perspective mate with postiive attention, only to eventually present anger and provoking some kind of end result of having the relationship end, replicating the abandonment that was presented in the childhood. Often the person that displays this type of behavior pattern is truely confused, because there is a desire for finding that one person that will love and accept them no matter what. However the deep seeded insecurity that this event could not possibly truely present itself, often lends to a very troubled secret waiting period which will present rejection.

It is possible for a person to have Post Tramatic Disorder that is presented in the brain of a child suffering from constant abuse, or even later on. However this can also present a Borderline Personality Disorder as a result of abuse/neglect as well. It is not always a definite result depending of what attention a child did get growing up. If one parent fills a loving role and nurtures, it can prevent that child from developing that disorder.

So, what you need to do is, preferably with a therapist, review your childhood to see what you really did learn, what you actually took away from that experience that is present in you now. If you can do that, it is the beginning to truely identifying your own issues that you may simply not be aware of. And whatever you DO have from that environment, if recognized and identified, can slowly be worked through, you can be retaught methods in how to identify the needs that were not met and how you may unknowingly be reacting to that now.

It is not always a parents fault for not filling the needs of their children, remember, most parents simply do not know the significance of the messages they send to their children. No there simply has not been a demand that parents receive education on how to produce the right atmosphere to raise a healthy child.

So, yes, you can forgive your parents and find a way to love them and have relationships with them in their later years. And, you can learn about yourself, where you may fall short unknowingly and learn to forgive yourself as well. It is important to learn about yourself, where you may be trying to make up for something you never got, but truely needed to just grow up and be a well adjusted adult etc. This you can do in therapy, work on your own lack and simply learning how to consciously recognize it and finally learn how to learn new ways to finding a better balance in yourself.

Sadly, there are many different ways a child can grow up with different ways of finding a sense of self security, that often can present behavior misperceptions, and reactions that are simply not the fault of the grown individual stemming from a very troubled child.

Open Eyes

[Open Eyes]

lido,
My last post was presented just before I had an appointment to go to see my own therapist. I disscussed my very troubling weekend holiday and how it revolved around various troubled family members who have no real understanding of what I am personally addressing. But as always with my therapist I present the upset along with my own understanding of what it all meant. My therapist is not really used to that kind of patient. I talked about what I described here to you about chldren being sponges and how that presented the issues I deal with in not only myself but other family members as well. Once again my therapist widened his eyes and discussed a book that presented the same analogy I had. Sigh....I am often hearing that and then a follow up of me being so smart. Well, at least my thinking is heading in the right direction.

First, the one thing you need to pay attention to is your menstral cycles. It may not be the culprit behind your personal issues, but it can excentuate your mood as you struggle with your personal issues.

You have presented some questions thus far that are very telling. You mentioned the habitual practicing of breaking up, even if you have no behaviors in your partner that should precipatate that process. And you do that with all your relationships.

You also discuss your struggles with your sister when she is involved in a relationship and how her personality seems to change. But your personality changes as well. Neither one of you truely KNOW how to have a successful trusting relationship, how could you, you never witnessed one.

So, think about the sponge that I talked about in my last post here. You and your sister, since you were born were just sponges that absorbed all the messages and emotions that were squeezed out of your parents. And it is obvious that one thing that is filling your personal sponge is the break up of your parents and all the emotions and stress that revolved around that. All that practicing your talking about reflects what has filled your personal sponge. Both you and your sister absorbed this, I wonder who is the older one of the two of you? Ususally the older child sees more and can do this kind of practicing method you speak of, while a younger sibling can become passive and address the thought of not if a break up will occur, but when.

lido, no one knows for sure if a relationship formed is going to truely last the test of time. All relationships don't just flourish on the initial attraction of two individuals, a working relationship goes through several stages of growth and learning how to maintain and respect each other's personal boundaries. It is a life of effort and work on the part of both individuals. You never got to see that part lido, your just focused on what didn't work and the painful result that came because your parents simply could not work out their relationship. I even wonder if they were successful with other partners, probably not. Because if you really had seen that, maybe you would have learned that relationships can last with work.

This is going to take time for you to work on lido, and it is going to be something your sister will have to get help with as well. Relationships can work, but it is not a Disney Movie where prince charming comes and you just live happily ever after. It does take effort to make it work and there are stages to relationships where a couple has to learn how to address these stages together.

I can't diagnose you, however you are expressing real, understandable struggles with your ability to accomplish a relationship. You truely need to find a good therapist for that and get to the root of your own sponge, seeing what is there and making efforts to add some good skills to that sponge that you simply do not have.

Open Eyes

[lido78]

Wow...everything that you've written is so accurate (at least to my situation)...and it's a bit scary as no therapist has ever articulated what you've said above. I went to a therapist as a younger child (parents sent me to help me deal with anger), as a young adult in college after being date-raped and then about six years ago while in my mid-30s to deal with a difficult relationship.

I'm definitely the older child and was much more verbal when my sister and I were younger. As a result of being older, I dealt more with my father's rages while my sister was either comforted by my mother or hid in her room. While I would have loved the comfort or to hide as well, I was much more similar to my father in personality so I felt that I was, even at age 12, better equipped to deal with him than even my mother. I had the language and temper to pretty much meet him head on....strangely enough, my father would actually back down when confronted with my full blown rage...so, it kind of became my role in the family....I was probably a pretty scary child. But, I'd just see my sister's eyes tear up and my mother struggle with words and I'd pretty much go at him. Some of the uglier stuff that he pulled was not while I was home but more when my sister was alone. There was no physical abuse, but he'd work himself into such a frenzy that she even had to call the police on him when she was about 11.

So, I guess that I saw the power that his fits had and just used it back on him with more force. Because he usually backed down, I learned that this behavior "worked." I now experience a lot of frustration because I'm constantly tamping down on similar feelings that are just not appropriate in an adult (temper tantrums definitely don't win you any friends as an adult and are not exactly appropriate in the work environment)...so, the energy doesn't really have anywhere to go. When I am not able to contain myself (usually during very stressful periods) the rage can come out and it can be pretty disproportional in some situations. Unfortunately, I've had other "positive" reinforcement of my anger due to living in the city. From time to time, you can feel very threatened by very aggressive people on the street...if it involves a man and my physical safety is an issue, my rages have probably saved my butt on at least two occasions...For me, the choice between fight and flight usually ends up in fight.

How someone with BPD may handle romantic relationships (i.e., grooming a perspective mate with postiive attention, only to eventually present anger and provoking some kind of end result of having the relationship end, replicating the abandonment that was presented in the childhood) is one huge issue that I've never even known how to articulate. I can be the most supportive, sensitive mate and then I can turn on a dime and rip the person down...this, of course, leaves me with such guilt that I will cry over how poorly I've treated the person.

I believe my sister may do the same thing as I've seen her be pretty vicious...the only difference is that she does not seem to feel any guilt afterwards...she seems to revel in her anger and/or just go completely cold and aloof. There never seems to be any real sense that she might need to make some of the changes that I know that I need to make.

Finding a good therapist for me would be the key...I feel as if I may need a male therapist for the first time. For some reason, I can never express my anger around female therapists...they usually try to keep me calm and in staying calm I pretty much repress everything.

Thank you again Open Eyes for taking so much time to respond to my post. I also want to thank Shezbut for the original post that has triggered a lot of good (and new) thinking on my part today.

[lido78]

As a side note, my father spent years in therapy after the family broke apart (even a short stay in the hospital after a complete breakdown) and eventually got a degree in psychology. He's a very different person now who makes a supreme effort with me and my sister. He doesn't push a reconciliation on either of us but willingly accepts whatever we want to give him in terms of a relationship. He has a very positive relationship with his significant other of 20 years, and he and I have talked openly and often about the past. So, I'm not actively feeling any anger toward him...it's more like extreme regret that I didn't even have much of a chance to develop into someone who can have normal relationships. I feel as if the proverbial horse is already out of the barn and, while I'd like to work on improving myself, I definitely feel at a disadvantage in terms of certain life skills.

[Open Eyes]

Ok, I see I guess right in many areas. Your right about the anger tantrums not being something that is appropriate in the adult world. And in choosing a therapist, just because it is a man doesn't mean your going to find the strength you need. Your father is a man, what does he do? Yes, he broke down and then finally became a therapist, but he has boundaries with you, he knows you will lash out. So in some ways your father has never truely remedied that and I don't think he would be a very good therapist for your kind of situation either, remember therapists are just people too.

I think what therapy would serve you well is Cognitive Behavioral therapy. And the therapist you need is a therapist who can have the ability to NOT absorb your anger and extreme emotionality. That could very easily be a strong woman as well. I think your looking for a man because you might just want to meet a man that can stand up to you, perhaps, you think, that may set you right. No that is wrong, it wont set you right. You have to develope the proper skills to gain your desired effect of not allowing others to control, intimidate etc.

Interesting I was correct about your sister being younger. And the way she errupts, and doesn't feel guilty is because she witnessed you stand the ground and keep some kind of order, order enough that allowed her to feel safe. So she is passive agressive and she could benefit from Cognitive Behavioral therapy as well, it would provide her with the correct method to gain and set her personal boundaries without the display of angry outbursts.

The two of you have to learn how to control the raw emotion of anger and intellectually learn how to verbally react in a way that will provide the same boundary markers. In fact they are finding that if a patient is Borderline Personality disordered (not diagnosing you here) they have found that the Cognitive Behavioral Therapy helps a lot. Also victims of abuse, even those that have my issues can benefit. It is on my list, my current therapist doesn't offer that kind of therapy.

Some food for thought.
Open Eyes

((((((((((((shez!)))))))))))--great idea for a thread! Kudos.

(((((Billi leli)))))---have been in awe of you for some time...you go!!!!!!!!!! Kudos!!!

((((((((Open Eyes))))))) hey there! Whenever I read anyone, I do so enjoy to know the sources they speak from...appreciate it muchly if you would provide sources for your information. They sound so interesting; and I really would like to read them. Thank you for mentioning them...You can send them in another pm?
Please??? oh, and bein a bit silly here ---"thoughts" have a high content of bad cholesterol...I know, been eating them all my life...had to go cold turkey...my doc was upset at my choleterol levels............LOL Wish you some quiet and peace in your harried life, dear Open Eyes!!! as always, you are most welcome to pm me anytime...I've been behind...will get back to your last one soon...I promise!

Hi Lido78! Welcome to PC! I enjoyed reading your input here. You have great insight! You are (unlike me) confident enough to ponder the input of others, and use what you need and leave the rest. That is strength of character! Admirable!!! I look forward to more of your posts! Geez, you are courageous! You knock my socks off!!!
Lido, please feel free to pm me!!! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I wish you all good things (you sound like that's all you will take too!) on your journey.%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%Pax all! Theo