PTSD and "The 4 F's" which type are you?

Fight, Flight, Freeze or Fawn. Read this article by Pete Walker. I have read them all on his website, but I think this one, the one about Managing Flashbacks and the article about shrinking the inner critic are crucial for recovery. Education about these subjects is important to know if you are struggling to heal from PTSD.

Learning about this stuff really helped reduce some of the symptoms, knowing really is half the battle. I'm a hybrid of all 4 of these types, my mother was a "fight - fawn" hybrid. He explains how Complex-PTSD can be misinterpreted as Cyclothymic Bipolar Disorder. Also he explains why many Complex-PTSD sufferers might also be misdiagnosed as having Borderline Personality Disorder which is currently part of my diagnosis. Which "type" do you identify with?

Great article. Thank you for posting it. I am definitely a Fawn with Flight and Freeze tendencies. It explains why I am so complex to treat.

Freeze and Flight. I must be incredibly hard to treat and be friends with, lol.

I only skimmed it but I all I saw was ptsd as a result of childhood trauma. My trauma occurred when I was an adult. Not sure if what he says applies to me. He says children who choose 'fight' develop narcissistic behaviors but my 'fight' was literally fight to the death.

Yoda: You can still get quite a bit about the Fight, Flight, Freeze and Fawn responses from the article. They can be applied to any kind of PTSD, just that maybe some parts might not apply quite so well.

I read this article about a month ago, and it's sorta what made me go "Oh." I'm very much a Flight Response person. But I do have my secondary impulses that I act on - which are actually different depending on where I am in my bipolar cycle.

Baseline: I'm Flight, but also a Fawn response.
Depressed: Flight is still the main one, but I won't fawn and instead I'll Freeze.
Hypomanic: Again, still Flight, but if I feel stuck I'll start showing more of the Fight response.

It sounds like I use all 4.... but the 3 really are quite dependent on where I am - I never, ever, show any signs of a Fight response unless I'm in an up.

But by and large.... I'm a flight response. My T even picked up on that I think within the 1st meeting, maybe some time during the 2nd.

No problem, I enjoy sharing things that I've found helpful in my recovery. Complex - PTSD is harder to treat and also takes more time to heal.
One of my friends is a Freeze/Flight type and he was always very quiet, mostly kept to himself. He has gotten better over the years and is further ahead in life than me at this point.
He was talking about Complex-PTSD. Generally speaking it takes more time and effort to heal from. Either way PTSD certainly isn't fun and can really take its toll on our mental and physical health. My first trauma happened before I could form memories, they continued throughout childhood, adolescence and into adulthood. I never really paid attention to myself and didn't know that I was ill for a long time. Even though I was diagnosed in my adolescence with other mental health disorders (Depression, ADHD and OCD) I've exhibited PTSD traits since childhood, it "runs" in my family along with mood disorders. Don't take the narcissistic thing as offensive either, most narcissists are unaware of their behaviors and its an extremely common condition in America. Think Wall Street for example.
That sounds similar to me, it just depends on my situation which reaction I'll have. Over the years I've learned that the most acceptable one is indeed the flight response, nobody gets hurt that way. Plus once I get away from the situation I can let my boiling pot of anger simmer down and handle the situation more rationally. I still tend to need to do something physical during my adrenalin rushes or they can really take their toll on my physical health. I hate the adrenalin that's why I avoid a lot of negativity and just talking about negative stuff brings me down and triggers my primal fight/flight response. Lately when what I really want to do is fight, I'll get away from the situation and exercise to let out all that pent up energy.

Think of it this way, PTSD was actually beneficial to have before civilization came along with its laws and traditions. Especially the fight or flight reaction, danger! You would run and escape certain death at the hands of a vicious animal. When confronted by a sneak attack and you would either fight to the death or die and never get to reproduce. So our bodies would produce adrenalin which seems to give us super-human strength, tunnel vision focus while our rational pre-frontal cortex part of our brain is highjacked by the limbic system. The hyper arousal would have been necessary for survival in such an environment because after we are attacked once, our brains tend to hold on to the negative fearful memories more than they hold onto the good times.

Thanks for posting this.

I've saved it to my favorites bar and plan on consulting it often.

I think it is important to realize that "most" people use the 4 F's to some degree.
However, when someone has PTSD or complex PTSD, they are much more "sensitive" so that will mean that average reactions are much more "magnified" with PTSD.

I agree with you HealingNSuffering, when people hear the word "narcissism" they often think of it as something "bad". We all need to have "some narcissism to thrive and NPD is a "disorder" when someone is so narcissistic that it affects/harms others and even themselves. When someone has NPD they are "very self absorbed" and they demand a lot of "adoration" because they are actually "insecure" however they do not even realize it. They are often "very controlling" and are quick to "eliminate' people whom they may feel "threatened by". They can be "very dismissive" even mean and vindictive because they do not know how to "help, nurture, care for, others" so they tend to "avoid" or get angry if they are actually "asked to care or respect" the boundaries of others.

It is important that if you read about the 4 F's that you do not determine yourself a "failure", it is always important to remember that with PTSD everything is often "magnified" and that includes "self criticism".

OE

Oh totally. My flight response is massive - I'm always busy. As soon as I get upset, I get busy with something. It's pretty much go go go in my life.

When I'm depressed and Flight/Freeze - I can pretty much guarantee that when I'm depressed there is ZERO fight response and any Fawn response is minimal because I think that it won't matter what I do, that I'll still be a piece of crap. But the Freeze will come into play when I run out of energy to keep busy - in which case, I will get lost in book or writing a story or watching a tv series.

When I'm hypomanic and Flight/Fight: I don't have the attention span to read or watch movies and am far too physically agitated to focus on things like that. I'll be mostly super extremely busy and productive... but if I somehow get trapped into a situation that is not good? Hello Fight Response! (This rarely happens, so I can say I rarely ever react with any semblance of a fight response... but when I do watch out cause it's huge).

When I'm baseline and Flight/Fawn: I'll be go go and go, but I usually find it easier to comply with what other people are wanting all the time, because then I hope that that will avoid it. so again, I'm keeping myself as busy as I can but if I am interacting and someone else pushes a need towards me... I'll do my best to fill it and hopefully can get it over and done with and get out of there.

But in each phase... there's really only ever 2 and it's primarily Flight. And it's constant and I'm very rarely have any time where I'm NOT acting in one mode or another.

I freeze or fawn. Not good.

Definitely freeze, sometimes fight

Nice article!!

Obsessive/Compulsive (flight), and Dissociative (freeze) seem to fit me most.

"... The freeze type tends to project the perfectionistic demands of the critic onto others rather than the self, and uses the imperfections of others as justification for isolation ..." (I'm exactly opposite here ... I do this to myself instead of others.)

"...Freeze types are in denial about the life narrowing consequences of their singular adaptation ..." (I am totally aware of this and am NOT in any denial about how constricted my life has become ... I often feel trapped by life and that due to my anxiety and fears, I've painted myself into a corner and am not sure how to change or escape it.)

I've recently returned to therapy and am beginning to address some of this even though I wasn't aware of it in this way. I was beginning to feel that I hadn't properly processed and grieved the traumas experienced in and by my family of origin.

It started early (3 years of age - earliest memory, could have started earlier even?) until I escaped (33.5 years of age).

OMG! ... I hope I wasn't caught up in it so damn long that I'm totally beyond help! ... I gotta admit, the very thought of that totally scares the @#$%! right outta me!

Thanks again for sharing this information.

No problem glad you like it.
Thanks I agree learning these are very important and are hard wired into all of us even people without PTSD to a certain extent. I think the reason why those of us who suffer from PTSD are more sensitive is because our stress levels are higher, our adrenalin response is exaggerated and little things literally get on our last nerve. You're explanation of NPD is pretty good, I was with a sadistic narcissist for 3 years and she tore up every fiber of my inner being. She had me addicted to our toxic relationship to the point where I was cutting ties with good friends for her. Eventually after we kept hurting each other over & over my old T convinced me that I should end the relationship because it truly was toxic and tearing my life apart. It was the worst breakup I ever had and left a permanent scar on my psyche, I haven't even attempted to start another relationship since because of the damage that was caused by my last one.

Anybody who has PTSD is not a failure at all, in my opinion people with PTSD are not only heroes but also very strong people. We have endured a lot of hardship and survived a lot of situations that were potentially life threatening. We are ultimately survivors of extremely adverse situations.
It seems like a daily struggle huh? I remember during the worst of it wishing I could just make it all stop and have a day off from having PTSD. The only way I would ever feel at peace is when I'm in the woods or gardening, it had to be quiet or I would get really paranoid. I've since learned techniques to create a "happy place" in my mind which operates in a very similar way to a flashback except it involves positive images and a peaceful feeling.
I freeze to, sometimes to the point of derealization and depersonalization which makes me feel sort of like an alien in my own skin. During periods of high stress I have even had some out of body experiences. Before therapy I suffered from agoraphobia as well, to the point where I was like a prisoner of my own comfort zone.
Thank you
Thanks, glad you liked it!
You're welcome, I hope you find peace through therapy soon. EMDR seems like promising treatment for those of us with PTSD, when I first met my T she recommended that I see an EMDR specialist. But I was too scared to go and ended up sticking with her because its the best therapist I ever found. After you share the links with your T, your work with the T will become a lot better. I noticed it did for mine, the author Pete suffered from C-PTSD himself and he got better. You should read some other links on his website when you get the time, its a great resource of information. I think you would benefit a lot from reading "shrinking the inner critic" next. Don't worry you aren't beyond help, you can get better and have your PTSD down to a manageable state. You can get your life back, just try to remember things will seem to get worse before they can get better.

Thanks, HNS ...

I was too scared to do EMDR as well ... I have found some wonderful therapists along the way, though, that have helped me as good as they could in spite of myself ... But, with this information, I now understand I'm not a failure ... This C-PTSD is really difficult stuff to heal from!

I've had good and bad therapists before. My psychiatrist and I agree the best therapy for me is CBT. My current T knows all kinds of different techniques including CBT, I read somewhere PTSD sufferers with the best chance of recovery do a combination of meds and therapy. To get the most out of therapy I think we should also be doing exercise and eating a well balanced diet. You want to eat more foods containing tryptophan and tyrosine as these two amino acids are very important to our diets. Most of our serotonin receptors are in our guts, when we eat a balanced diet we get all the tryptophan and tyrosine we need, so our brain can produce most of the serotonin and dopamine it needs. Today I ate a pretty good balance of fruits, grains and proteins. I definitely could've ate more veggies but I'm all out of salad.

I also find that avoiding drugs, alcohol and stimulants keeps me from getting too stressed out and cranky. When I'm stressed I get physical pains in my body that have lead to panic attacks before, as I thought I was for sure dying of some horrible disease. I didn't even go to a therapist for help first, I went to the hospital, at the hospital doctors and nurses recommended I seek help from a mental health professional because they did all kinds of expensive scans, tests and questions but couldn't find out what was wrong with me.

Thanks HNS I have read a couple of his other articles and it really helped me to understand what was going on for me, and I finally identified with a 'diagnosis'. I have to say though I ma really confused which category I fit in to.....so for me I am thinking to maube take the link to my T and work it our with him. That makes me anxious already!

And top that off with trying to decide whether to start EMDR with him, it is a pretty stressful time.

Seems like you have a great handle on your recovery and wellness, what a great example!

You're very much welcome and thank you. I think I'm doing pretty good at my recovery, I would enjoy getting involved in peer support to help other people recover. I'm not "cured" by any means, but I did a lot of work towards my recovery and made some pretty big steps. The plan was to take baby steps but I ended up becoming obsessed with recovery and dedicating almost every waking hour to healing.

Yeah definitely talk with your T about it, the best thing I did for my anxiety was to stop letting it control me. If something makes you anxious, that's even more reason to do it because then after you've done it and nothing bad has happened you'll realize that the anxiety was unnecessary. Eventually you build off each experience that you have the strength to face your fears and not let them control you anymore. Its pretty much what exposure therapy is all about, desensitizing you to your triggers and helping you get the PTSD into a "managed" state. Wish you all the best!

HNS I think you would be a great Peer Support Specialist. I have been working as one for almost 2 years now (before I was an Optician) since finding a good level of recovery from MDD and alcohol addiction. It is an incredibly rewarding job and certainly helps you in your own recovery because of the mutual nature of the role.

I waited 2+ years to get in to this latest therapy so it is the next step on my journey. I was not aware before just how much anxiety I was masking daily and it is actually great to finally begin to understand what is driving me and my behaviours with this new diagnosis of complex PTSD. (Also terrifying knowing I have to face my past)

Go for your dreams HNS

I think so to I wanted to get into the one that helped me out but you need a perfect driving record. I got a ticket a few years ago for getting ran off the side of the road in a storm on my way to the store to get a pack of smokes. The police lied in court and I had no witness to back me up, I was panicking when I saw the judge and he looked at me like I was crazy. I get really high anxiety whenever I have to deal with authority figures, they make me tremble with fear.

Good job on the recovery from MDD and alcohol addiction, I'm also alcohol and drug free now, I even quit cigarettes and caffeine. My family doctor convinced me to get clean after several visits, because "alcoholism runs in my family" (and mental illness). Anxiety is probably the reason everybody in my family drinks, it slows them down enough to not feel so anxious. I definitely want to go for my dreams, I enjoy helping people but sadly in the "real world" setting most people with MI don't think they have an illness and refuse help. I like this site because people generally want to get better, everybody in my family besides my aunt has mood and anxiety disorders but refuses help.

I know what you mean about facing your past, our memories are often too good for our own good. I find that writing a journal helps me recall things a lot better because a lot of times my thoughts are racing too fast to keep up. Writing helps me get them down before I lose them. Best of luck to you in your therapy, be sure to make a post about it in the PTSD or psychotherapy subforum and let us know how it went.

I freeze or fight. I also saved this and will refer to it often. The fight part is new to me in the past few years so not sure if I relate to that aspect. Kind of scary. But I have always become frozen and I hate that. Of course none of this is fun.

Thanks for the article.

How do I add a quote to my posts?

You're very much welcome! Glad you found it useful as well. The fight response was my default response for many years, it still takes a lot of work to control it. If somebody yells at me I get really triggered by it, I used to always respond to this feeling with anger. I would rage and get up in their face and scream or break stuff or hurt them. Sometimes hurting them would bring me a sense of joy but then I would just get even more anxiety about possible retaliation. Still to this day the only time I feel safe after a fight response has been triggered is hyper-vigilant with a weapon pointed at the door. Even if I didn't do anything violent, then if nothing happens I'll get really emotional and hyperventilate.
Click on the button that looks like a piece of paper with writing on it.

Thanks for posting this. I am ashamed to say that I am Freeze/Fawn. Made me ill when I read that this is typical with the "classic" domestic violence victim.....yuck....hate to believe the reality of my former relationships.

You're welcome! Don't be ashamed, you are not alone hope you find more peace in future/current relationships.