[shakespeare47]

I'm still really embarrassed by my memories of my first T. She was the first person I told about the sexual abuse I suffered as a child. And she commented that I was a good person, and that I was being too hard on myself.

For some reason that comment made me angry, and I tried to prove her wrong. I remember focusing on that statement, and just thought it was ridiculous. For one thing, she didn't have any idea who I was, we'd only been meeting together for a week or 2.

Anyway, I went out of my way to prove her wrong (I didn't tell her), and did some things that I regret so much, that I can barely bring myself to talk about them. (nothing illegal). I did tell my last T about what I consider to be the worst offense.

I saw my first T about 25 years ago, and the way I went about trying to prove her wrong still really bothers me.

Edit: I have no concept of what made me react the way I did (it wasn't very long after meeting with her that I tried to kill myself, I only saw her 4 or 5 times) or how to forgive myself.

[MotownJohnny]

Honestly, no. I am SO familiar with the concept of self-hatred, and of feeling like I've "done something really wrong" when all of that is a set of false beliefs. And I honestly know that feeling of "it can't be true" when someone says something nice about you.

Of course, I don't know you, or anything about your life, but in the more general context, knowing that we ALL suffer these horrible self-esteem/self-hatred issues, I would say your T was probably pretty accurrate.

I know, SO easy for me or other disintersted parties to say these things. But, this final thought - it seems the things that we think we did that were so awful aren't really that bad on the grand scale of things. It's just us being hard on ourselves because of our past history and issues.

I think you do need to let go - not that letting go is easy, believe me, I can't, I'm the king of not letting go of the pain.

[Open Eyes]

I think that your reaction was a way of self protecting at the time shakesphere. Twenty five years ago you did not have the life experience you have now, always keep that in mind. Often a victim of abuse of some kind just cannot see themselves as having any redeeming qualities but instead they somehow feel it is their fault and tend to "self blame".

One of the movies that said so much about this challenge was Good Will Hunting. In that movie Will was more than willing to tear down the therapists he was encountering. He even tried to do that with Robin Williams, and it worked to where he got Robin Williams very angry. That movie really said a lot, and I think a lot of people missed the true quality of the messages that movie had in it. There is a hell of a lot more to that movie than getting a hug and then being able to go see about a girl. I have watched that movie a few times now and I always pick up something else that is so amazingly spot on. I thought that Robin Willams did an excellent job in that movie too, he definitely got the part he played and IMHO, in a very deep way too.

You need to see the entirety of where you were at the time shakesphere.

I have had to learn how to do that myself and when I look back on different things I did or ways I had reacted that I would not do now, I have had to really consider where I was
developmentally at the time too.

You were very angry back then, and you tested her, pretty much the same thing that was expressed in that movie.

OE

[Frankbtl]

Hi shakespeare, what you want to hold onto is the clear cut evidence of just how far you've actually come, you have made so much progress which is shown so well in your thread!!!!
But I can completely understand how you might have reacted to her comment negatively. Let's face it, you'd divulged something that made you so vulnerable to her, something that had effected you so deeply, so personal, so intimate. And no getting away from the deep shame, guilt, worthlessness, tainting...........that someone abused in that way can sometimes feel...........sometimes the last thing they can feel about themselves is that they're a good person. We know now that it shouldn't be necessary to carry those feelings but..........
And you revealed it to someone/one person, who you'd hoped would be in just the position to understand, to support you, to help you.
And then "just" as you'd told her, told someone for the first time, she goes throwing back something which would have sounded so patronizing, dismissive, so oblivious to how you felt at the time (?). Well anger, resentment, frustration, hurt...............I completely get.
And maybe you were expressing that through your behavior, as well as trying to let it show on the outside just how you felt, "knew it was on the inside"??
And the T.........well maybe she'd sensed how you felt at the comment (if she was experienced!!), maybe she sensed a bit of a breakdown in the relationship after that, maybe she did what she could in her experience to try to bring back the relationship, but ultimately, as a T, I would hope she would have understood and had empathy for you, for the effect of everything...........including the effecther comment had on you even though the sessions with her ended.
So NO "beating yourself up" about it, hey??!!!
The first disclosures can be the hardest ones, and carry the hardest emotions, and if not supported the way you need to be supported..........
And again.......back to now, you are a different person now, and that has so much to do with you...........the journey you've made.............you should use this memory to show you that, and to be proud of yourself in how far you've come. Respect!!!!

Alison

[Open Eyes]

[Teacake]

Of course. What right has a therapist to judge one? Who elected them the arbiter of who is a good or a bad person? Religión delegates judgement to Gods. Does this tharapist imagine herself to be God? Talk about your boundary violation!

Equals do not Juste one another. Superiora judge inferiors. So at a vulnerable moment when you are disclosing a humiliating experience and very much need a peer to understand you, she createdls distance and assumes a superior position in which she offers her judgement ABOUT YOUR VERY WORTH. It hardly matters that she judges you to be good. The insult is that ahe judges you at all, and at a time that calle for empathy instead.

There are many sound argumenta against therapy. There are many more Since thw therapist is no longer from the joost echelons of college graduates but often enough the dregs, the lowly social worker, lowest college admissions atandards of them all.

I am sure she hadnt the first clue that her statement was just plain offensive and rude. Her intwntion was undoubtedly to relieve your guilt and restore your belief in your essential goodness. She was probably unaware of a motivation to create distance as a defense
against her feelings about the revelation.

If she is usually smart and open, you migbt gently point out what you felt. * She migbt get It. But if she was a child abused by humiliating ribbons and badges, meant to manipulafe her self esteem...forget about It.

In any event she didn't know she was insulting you. It was meant to make you know your goodness. What you need Is your wholeness.

I hope that made sense.

[shakespeare47]

^Thank you very much, Teacake. Yes, that does make a lot of sense. It was a very frustrating time in my life. I went to her for help, and I was left with the impression that she just didn't know how to help, and the little help she proffered had exactly the opposite of the desired effect.

The way my InTJ brain works, it caused me to have thoughts like this "this person is supposedly an expert in psychology... she doesn't know me.... she claims to know that I'm a good person... what is it that makes a person 'good' anyway? I have done things for which I feel guilt.... she has no idea what those things are... she has no idea what she is talking about..... maybe she can't help me....maybe I'm actually a bad person..."

and there was some anger and some "I'll show you.." involved.. and then on top of that I was analyzing my own behavior and feeling even more guilt about the way I was handling the situation. Well, I was rather young....I was about 22 at the time. and I think my brain works differently than most...perhaps talking like she did usually worked, in her experience.

The bottom line is that she made 2 ridiculous claims... 1. That she knew what it meant to be "good" 2. That she knew I was "good".

^and those 2 claims? They're BS... and the fact that she didn't realize it? made me totally loose faith in her in general, and the field of psychology in particular.

[healingme4me]

I hear where you are coming from, albeit a very different triggered expression from a cliche expression. My first T, was one my dad sent me to, post divorce. 'You know, your parents divorce, isn't your fault.'



Don't sugar coat general statements to me.

At 10,(or was I 9), my thought was, no shiz...duh. can't we just be supported without stupid general statements? Felt unheard. And certainly not understood. Why not get to the heart of the matter?

You're right, after a couple sessions, how would your T know one way or the other?

I'm fine, if my current T, makes a statement that states, based on your character and history, this is just who you are, at the core.

Don't bs me, from the get go...

[Open Eyes]

Every once in a while I talk about a husband and wife team that I reached out to for help.
I don't remember how many sessions I had with the wife psychologist, but enough to give her my history and my thoughts about the different individuals, what I had been doing with my life etc. It was my effort to show her "here is my puzzle, things are not fitting together right now and I am struggling, will you help me?".

I went in one day and the husband sat me down and told me how him and his wife had learned a lot from me and that I was gifted and should consider being a therapist myself.
I felt the same way as that angry boy you talk about. I felt that way again with the doctor of child psychology when she told me that. That one caught me off guard because I did not know what kind of doctor she was. Both times I felt something was "taken" not given. When the husband of the team who was the psychiatrist told me that and then offered me some "valium"? I was just as angry inside as that young man you were that you are discribing.

Yesterday I was not doing well at all, but when I saw your thread, what did come to my mind was that movie. The reason why I like that movie so much is I could relate to the anger that Will had. I could relate to what he meant when he talked about how "if" he was a so called good boy and gave, something would only be taken from him and he felt that it could be bad too, so why bother. Time and again he problem solved with that professor and who was actually "receiving" something? Well, the only thing Will got was a "get out of jail card".

Maybe what that young man needed was someone to actually sit "with" him and agree that it was "bad", maybe even sit with him and talk about some of the "whys" behind the bad too. Maybe he needed someone who could be angry with him and not just tell him
"he was a good person", that really "is" a kind of taking now isn't it?

What I did not like about the "therapists" that I reached out to is how they were "judging" and labeling and it was not about "me", instead it was about themselves. What made me so angry about that Dr. of Child psychology is from the moment she stepped out of her nice car and I was in her presence, yes, I stood down and gave her the power because I could tell her presence was "all about her". Yes, she wanted that child to listen to her, listen to her and finally when the child was not giving her what she had wanted she relented and gave the situation over to me, so I stopped everything and made it "all about the child". Oh, now I am some kind of "gifted"? Should I actually feel good about that? Well, after she left there was a big part of me that felt like that young man you were that was "angry". I think too that part of that anger or maybe a lot of it went all the way back to watching my older brother constantly punished (abused really),
because of how so many needed him to accomodate "them" and how much he needed it to be "about him" instead. I was the only one that spent any time with him and let him show me how "he" could play nice and behave and be "ok". The only reason why he hurt me is because he was hurt, and I saw that, and it was horrible.

I don't think that young man was bad, as experiencing anger like that myself, I can see that he just needed something more significant than "you are a good person". When one shares something that is very hard to share like that, maybe what is needed more is to have a therapist "sit with them" in that experience rather then just "not really hear it" and offer up "you are a good person". I think that young man did bad things so this therapist "would feel it" like he needed her to?

[Open Eyes]

The other thing that you have done that has helped you a great deal is "read" too shakesphere. What reading does is it actually helps a person develop/learn empathy.
When we read poetry or anything where a person is sharing not only an experience, but also how that experience emotionally affected that person, we actually get to tap onto not just the actions that take place but the "emotional" in whatever that "intelligent" individual is experiencing at the time as well. So, without really realizing it a person begins to also learn more about emotions and even what they mean, what to do with them and even that it is "ok" to feel them too. So your looking back on this experience and feeling guilty and confused about it is really expressing how much you have grown and gained since that period in your life.

When someone studies to become a psychologist, often a person does that because they themselves are challenged in some way and want to learn more. So, they learn about all these different labels and then they learn about different therapies that have been created to address these labels. However, often these individuals are not "fixed/healed" themselves, they just know more. Then these individuals embark on taking in patients and trying to use these therapies to label the patient and do their best to follow a therapy that is designed to address the patient's problems.

It is well known that therapists experience their own challenges, either they heal while they are helping others heal, or they break down and seek therapy themselves. A good therapist needs to actually "feel with" the patient, and that is very hard and can get to a level where the therapist can actually get overwhelmed. Yet there are therapists that are highly educated, gain a lot of knowledge about different labels, yet they don't really gain "emotional intelligence". Often they have a sense of "empowerment", but that is about "them" and not the patient.

When that therapist responded to you the way she did, that is only because she had learned that trauma patients that were abused often self blame and struggle with self esteem and are often emotionally challenged. So, the idea is to respond with "you are a good person", however the major mistake with that is that it doesn't really "acknowledge" the "emotional pain" taking place. That is what you "wanted" her to share with you when you trusted her with telling her. As I explained before, that is why you lashed out in whatever way you did, you needed her to "feel it".

If "sharing emotions" doesn't happen then, yes, it is "phoney". That is what gets "me" angry too.

I talked about what is "stage worthy", what makes a performer a good performer. The greats all understood how to express emotions where their audience connected and felt included. That is also what makes a great novel or poem or song or any of the "arts".
It is one thing to know this intellectually, but another to understand it with emotional intelligence too.

We all loved and appreciated Robin Williams, but what was his body of work about? He would pick certain roles because he appreciated these roles in a certain way, he did capture every charactor "emotionally", and that is what made him a "great".

A "good" therapist doesn't just have knowledge about the different labels, a good therapist also understands the "emotional challenges" with these different labels too. So much so that a therapist is capable of getting right down there with a patient and "feeling it with the patient too" which is exactly what that young man in you wanted when he finally "shared" his deep challenge.

When a person struggles with PTSD, especially complex PTSD, the "emotional challenge" is not just "intense", it is "extreme at times". What I have noticed is that most of these individuals that I have met tend to have others around them that don't provide them with "any" emotional support.

Society tends to frown on "expressing emotion" and while some attempt is being made to change that, most people are taught to "control or hide their emotions" and that if you can't then you are "weak and unworthy".

My business is such that I work with all different kinds of families in all different classes of people. It's amazing how little so many parents actually know, and yet they are in charge of a human being that depends on them while that human being develops it's private universe called the "human brain". It is not unusual for a child to express a lot of fear and yet the parent tries to push them anyway and that is because it's what the "parent" wants. I am not the parent, however, I find myself often teaching the parent how to address this challenge correctly.

It was not so long ago that I happened to watch a video that was posted here, can't remember what thread or the name of the woman that was "on to something" and sharing it. However, her epiphany and entire presentation was on "sympathy verses empathy". It was all about how people don't know "how" to emotionally connect with others and at best will express sympathy. When you shared how that therapist disappointed you, it made me think of this woman with this big "epiphany" and it really isn't rocket science, it just isn't. Yet, that is all you got from that therapist, sympathy and you sure needed and deserved more than that. Well, can't blame you for being angry.

The point is, not in how you reacted then, but what you can learn from that "now"? Remembering these things are not to feel bad or ashamed really, it's just an opportunity to see it differently, understand it better, and with that you gain in your "emotional intelligence level".

Well, hopefully you gain something from my input. I try to get down in that pit with others and be supportive, but I have some significant hurts myself and sometimes that hurt surfaces and intrudes on my ability to do that in the way I had intended.

[Teacake]

Originally Posted by shakespeare47

^Thank you very much, Teacake. Yes, that does make a lot of sense. It was a very frustrating time in my life. I went to her for help, and I was left with the impression that she just didn't know how to help, and the little help she proffered had exactly the opposite of the desired effect.

The way my InTJ brain works, it caused me to have thoughts like this "this person is supposedly an expert in psychology... she doesn't know me.... she claims to know that I'm a good person... what is it that makes a person 'good' anyway? I have done things for which I feel guilt.... she has no idea what those things are... she has no idea what she is talking about..... maybe she can't help me....maybe I'm actually a bad person..."

and there was some anger and some "I'll show you.." involved.. and then on top of that I was analyzing my own behavior and feeling even more guilt about the way I was handling the situation. Well, I was rather young....I was about 22 at the time. and I think my brain works differently than most...perhaps talking like she did usually worked, in her experience.

The bottom line is that she made 2 ridiculous claims... 1. That she knew what it meant to be "good" 2. That she knew I was "good".

^and those 2 claims? They're BS... and the fact that she didn't realize it? made me totally loose faith in her in general, and the field of psychology in particular.

I thought you'd get me, Shakespeare. Most on this forum totally dont.