[ECHOES]

Literally.
I have mentioned that talking in therapy was nearly impossible for the first 9 months. I still struggle with it at times. I love the times when I don't and words and thoughts just flow.

But sometimes... Gee, censoring and holding back are stubborn animals! Very ingrained. I can often catch it now but I can't necessarily do anything to correct it. I am patiently waiting for this to get better. Yes, we talk about it directly and at the moment it is happening. But when I'm in the midst of it happening it can be the most difficult time to talk about it. Sometimes, though, the talking about it.. will help me see what I am avoiding, and that's good.

Last session, though! Honestly, it was as if my mouth was not working. As if my mouth was taped, my jaws wired shut. Really of course it was my brain, but still... And I even knew why. I offered the why, it wasn't hard to locate. (Which is why I could offer it. Shooting fish in a barrel). The session before I was relating some associations that I was not happy about, yet were there. She had opened her desk drawer to get a card to write my next appt time because it was a different day and time than usual (or the old usual before the financial issues made the usual not possible). So, her desk drawer was a mess, like a junk drawer. This startled me. I suppose it has to do with the idealizing, which I am trying very hard to work through, to get it out of the way because it intereferes.
Anyway, so I told her about the unorganized drawer, and the soft briefcase with folders stuck in the side pocket kind carelessly loose, which to me~ suggests they could easily fall out, that suggests lack of care, that suggests lack of attention, that suggests lack of importance.. I have had dreams that could be interpretted as my feeling T is inept. All of this was so hard to talk about but it was there, it had to be talked about.
Her face showed her feelings, which appeared to be hurt, displeasure, anger. She said "I do have the capacity to be hurt".
omg omg omg, I was sure that I'd finally blown it. She'd be showing me the door if not today then soon.

I put that out of mind for the days between sessions. (due to the holiday, I only had to go 4 days ). When that next session began I found myself with nothing to say. I had planned on talking about several things, but they had flown my coop by the time I got into the room. So I sat in the discomfort. We sat in the discomfort. It was as if I knew no words, no language. As if I was physically unable to speak. It was so frustrating! She brought up last session and in the midst of that I told her how awful it was that what I had shared was reflected in her facial expression as hurtful when that is exactly what I worried about before --and during--sharing it. And that when she said "I have the capacity to feel hurt." it felt ominous, angry. ***and I said to myself after the session and several times between the sessions, that I will never say anything like that again!!*** Which became (do not speak).
She also said that her statement about having the capacity to feel hurt was offered as an explanation (not accusation)--of the facial expresions she knew were there and that I was expreiencing. She meant it to express that she feels fully capable of dealing with feeling hurt.

This was an interesting session, in retrospect. I was not able to pull myself out of the state I was in at that moment. I had all the logical explanations of my limited ability to speak, her clarification of her experience, but could not move on. I left in a distracted state, barely hearing her asking after the session if I was off work for a long weekend and a Happy Thanksgiving wish. I'll bet my "yeah, yeah.." reply was just the warmest holiday wish she received. lol

So, now I have words again. I guess I'm showing that off now. No censoring me when my fingers are talking
Sometimes I can work through in session. Often I have to 'get away from there' to process. I want to be more in-the-moment, more real. Working on it.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by ECHOES

She also said that her statement about having the capacity to feel hurt was offered as an explanation (not accusation)--of the facial expresions she knew were there and that I was expreiencing. She meant it to express that she feels fully capable of dealing with feeling hurt.

???

Can you see this, considering the way she expressed it originally? Wouldn't the whole tone be different, if not the words themselves?

On a possibly related note: people here often say that they cannot say things. Does that mean they cannot say them, or does it mean that the words are not even available in their minds so they can say them?

[ECHOES]

Pachy, yes I can see this. I am glad to hear her say it. It's my expectation that she is sturdy enough to hear anything, and that includes thoughts about her. I didn't mention this, because I was already feeling like I was hemorhaging words...lol.. but she also helps me realize that I am talking about therapy, when I am talking about her--my worries, fears, expectations, hopes.. So she helps me see how my thoughts about her are thoughts about therapy itself.

does it mean that the words are not even available in their minds so they can say them?

Well, it can be both. It can mean a fear of speaking the words and/or exactly as you describe it, and how I describe it to T: There are no Words!!

[BlueMoon6]

Echoes- Im sure you'll get better replies than mine, but here goes (and take it from where its coming, in terms of my experience with dt). It amazes me that therapists want us to talk, it is why we are there, we need to get it out, yet when they dont like what we have to say about them, we should not talk. When she said, "I have the ability to get hurt," that doesnt sound to me like, "I have the ability to deal with hurt feelings." It sounds like, "you can see that I am hurt, if you keep talking, Im going to get more hurt."

I cant say I know where the line is drawn, but there must be a place where they can be authentic yet be professional enough to allow us to say what we need to say. If she is messy and somewhat disorganized, then, in a professional sense, acknowledge that and validate your feelings. That it is understandable that you would interpret that as inept and careless, she has to keep some kind of distance and allow you your feelings. This is a theraputic relationship, she is there to understand and explore for you what that means.

Well, that would shut me up, too. Dt was the same way, and it stopped me from EVER saying to her how I felt about what she said or did, not only did *I* idealize her, but from her reactions, it was as if she idealized herself. She was so impossible to confront. One of the big reasons I cant go back for a closure session and she is left wondering what happened and what could be going on in my mind is because I feel that she cannot handle what is going on in my mind. UGH!

Big hugs.....we are the "shut up" twins.....

[ECHOES]

Bluemoon6,
I think the difference between "ability" and "capability" is meaningful. And she may have said "the capacity" but I heard it like you did. When we talked about it and she clarified, it was fine. She actually reassured me that I was correct in thinking that as a T, she is very strong (I say sturdy) and can handle anything I bring in with me. It is reassuring and comforting to me when something like this is clarified. Relieving too.

It is actually meaningful to me that she is spontaneous, real and in-the-moment. To be otherwise would kind of contribute to or reinforce my idealizing, I think. And, as it is my goal to be spontaneous, real, and in-the-moment with myself and others, it is good to see that it is not a flat terrain. Hills and valleys are real but don't have to be avoided. In fact, they can't be avoided if I want to experience a full rich life.

Difficult sessions like these are so interesting because there is so much to explore and learn.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by ECHOES

Difficult sessions like these are so interesting because there is so much to explore and learn.

I agree--sounds like a lot of discovery and learning in those 2 sessions for both you and your T.

I think saying "I have the capacity to be hurt" is very different from saying "I feel fully capable of dealing with feeling hurt." Very different indeed! I think she was back pedaling in her later explanation to you. That's OK. She's human. It's interesting she felt the need to change what she said, but I think she was trying to be "the good therapist" for your sake, and that is, in a way, endearing. When my T is having countertransference, he will usually name it in the moment, and that has a way of disarming it, and also helps me learn more about the therapeutic relationship, and experience its reciprocity.

[velcro003]

echoes, i think that is very brave of you to bring in! I'm still at the stage where I am afraid of saying that I am afraid of negative reactions from her!

[Melbadaze]

Echoes, Good stuff!

[ECHOES]

Hmmm, I don't agree that she was backpedalling.
I think she meant the capacity to deal with hurt in the first place, and clarified that after I related how I experienced her saying this.

velcro, sometimes I think I share way too much negative stuff.
However, when we talk about my negative feelings/criticisms of her being representations of my continued distrust and insecurity about therapy, it fits. So it is helpful to talk about. When I wonder about her capabilities, I am wondering about therapy.

[BlueMoon6]

Originally Posted by ECHOES

Bluemoon6,
I think the difference between "ability" and "capability" is meaningful. And she may have said "the capacity" but I heard it like you did. When we talked about it and she clarified, it was fine. She actually reassured me that I was correct in thinking that as a T, she is very strong (I say sturdy) and can handle anything I bring in with me. It is reassuring and comforting to me when something like this is clarified. Relieving too.

It is actually meaningful to me that she is spontaneous, real and in-the-moment. To be otherwise would kind of contribute to or reinforce my idealizing, I think. And, as it is my goal to be spontaneous, real, and in-the-moment with myself and others, it is good to see that it is not a flat terrain. Hills and valleys are real but don't have to be avoided. In fact, they can't be avoided if I want to experience a full rich life.

Difficult sessions like these are so interesting because there is so much to explore and learn.

I like it, too that she is spontaneous and in the moment. She is good, and, honestly, I have known the most brilliant of souls who were disorganized and messy. It certainly does not reflect on her ability to be an excellent therapist with you. But I can understand why you would interpret it that way, I had all kinds of things in my mind when I looked around dt's room for a shred of evidence about who she was. And then interpret these things, Im sure, very wrongly. I didnt dare ask her!

Im gald she clarified that for you. She cares and wants to be careful, for you. She wants you to be able to say whatever it is that you need to say, even if she was hurt in that moment. And for you to know she can deal with your feelings.

I agree also that this is where the learning is, in exploring how we hear things and how we come across to others. Good job!

[FooZe]

Originally Posted by ECHOES

I have had dreams that could be interpretted as my feeling T is inept.

Just to be on the safe side, you might also try on the possibility that you could be concerned about being inept yourself. I'm not saying you are, by any means -- just checking if you ever think you are.

Her face showed her feelings, which appeared to be hurt, displeasure, anger. She said "I do have the capacity to be hurt".

It sounds to me as if she had some concerns about perhaps being too disorganized -- so that for a moment, what you said became a none-too-comfortable bit of her therapy. Sounds as if she made a nice recovery, though.

I said to myself after the session and several times between the sessions, that I will never say anything like that again!!*** Which became (do not speak).

Good catch, ECHOES. I think what you've described there is exactly the recipe for getting stuck in a decision you make to protect yourself -- and observing yourself doing it as you just did, the recipe for getting unstuck.

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A little off topic, but perhaps not entirely:

In my first job, right as I was starting college, my boss gave the appearance of being the most uptight, meticulous, obsessive-compulsive guy I'd ever met. I'd been struggling to keep my drawers at home organized (they'd never stay that way for long ) and was shocked to find that he kept the wide drawer of his desk completely disorganized. When he needed a paper clip or something, he'd dig around and quickly fish one out. Whenever it took him too long to find the paper clip he'd open a new box, dump it in, and stir for a bit. To my surprise, his "system" turned out to work so well for him that I adopted it myself for a while. He himself turned out to be one of the two best bosses I've ever had. I expected him to use his obsessive-compulsive act to make me wrong and keep me in line (where could I have picked up anything likethat?) but it turned out to be just his way of training me to work to a very high standard. As soon as I demonstrated I could, he'd acknowledge it, back, off, and let me work.

----------------------

One time when I was about four I was staying with my grandparents for a while. My grandfather had been a merchant seaman, presented himself as something of a tough guy, and was teaching me to be a big boy and not cry. I figured he was obviously impervious to trivial annoyances like pain and if I worked very hard to grow up and was very lucky, I might someday become like him. One morning I was watching him getting a fire going in the woodstove. I took a thin strip of kindling, lit it in the fire, and laid it across the back of my grandfather's hand to test his reaction. To my surprise he jumped, yelled, and demanded to know what I was doing. You mean... that "me tough guy, you wimp" stuff had just been an act?

[MissCharlotte]

I love the exchange between you and T and have had similar experiences with Mr. T (lol). I think the ability, attempt, offering of explanations is a result of hard hard work and arriving at a certain point in the relationship that is so damned fleeting it can't be captured!--It feels so close-to care enough for one another to take the time to explain what we mean/meant so as to make certain that both participants are together, in sync, understanding, exchanging, sharing. It really does happen in degrees doesn't it? It's like finding the exact right synonym to convey your message (okay okay so I teach). Just like a mother would do with her baby when she wanted her to understand something important.

Lovely until we regress and find ourselves with no words again. Sigh.

Happy Thanksgiving Echoes!

[ECHOES]

Thank you and Happy Thanksgiving, Miss(teacher)Charlotte and to Mr. T, too.

[ECHOES]

Fool Zero, yes, I often think I'm inept at therapy and we have talked about it often. Usually it is about not being able to find words, and so we talk about why that might be happening. I think that does match T's idea that the dreams are about my feelings of insecurity about therapy itself.

Thanks for your description of your great boss who was disorganized. As I was reading it, I felt something familiar that was about how organization can feel restrictive, confining, rigid and disorganization can feel freer.. so now I have a different idea about organization and disorganization.

Regarding the story about your grandfather... can it be that both were real: he was a tough guy and he had the capacity to feel (and handle) hurt...

[billieJ]

Echoes ~ I think you should say what's on your mind in therapy, free associate if you will. I believe that is how you get to the root of things. As you state, I literally hemorrhage words in meetings with my case manager, no doubt due to loneliness, but I don't say anything much about her. This, too, has it's bad responses, as she called me "self-absorbed" because I thought I was supposed to talk about myself and my fears. I am glad that you got the subject out in the open in your next session, so that T could clarify what she meant. As a professional T, she has to have the ability to handle whatever clients may say to or about her, and she does have. She may have been momentarily at a loss, as indicated by her expressions and original statement, but she rebounded, as you can. If it makes you feel any better, I have known professionals, brilliant in every sense of the word, whose desk tops you literally could not see, for the mess of stacked papers. I have no idea how they find things, but I know they can help people! It's one of life's mysteries. Try free associating about your own experiences. It might be helpful in resolving your issues, without touching upon hers. Posting here is most helpful as well. Narration is a known therapeutic device. I think you did very well in bringing up the issue in next session. With admiration ~ billieJ

[ECHOES]

Try free associating about your own experiences. It might be helpful in resolving your issues, without touching upon hers.

Thank you billiej, you touch on an important aspect of all this~~that I avoid looking in by looking out. It is a defense. I try and I want to free associate in therapy, but I don't often. I just can't seem to think freely and the the thoughts flow when I am in there, as I can easily do when I am not in there.

[zooropa]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

???

Can you see this, considering the way she expressed it originally? Wouldn't the whole tone be different, if not the words themselves?

On a possibly related note: people here often say that they cannot say things. Does that mean they cannot say them, or does it mean that the words are not even available in their minds so they can say them?

for me, when this happens in session, I have the words in my mind very clearly but it's like they get stuck in my throat, I feel like I just cannot make myself say whatever it is. Ugh.

[FooZe]

Originally Posted by ECHOES

Regarding the story about your grandfather... can it be that both were real: he was a tough guy and he had the capacity to feel (and handle) hurt...

I don't know, and at the time I wasn't anywhere close to figuring it out. Later I got the impression that he really was pretty tough but that he was also hiding behind that image a lot. Just what he was hiding, I was never sure.

[wonderingmary]

Originally Posted by sunrise

When my T is having countertransference, he will usually name it in the moment

That is a great quality for a therapist to have. I wish more could/would do that.