[jexa]

Hey guys,

Okay I am still on a PC hiatus for the most part but I wanted to come back and ask the opinion of people here and what you would do if you were in my situation.

I was on another site, just perusing information about psychology doctoral programs, when I saw a thread about why a certain university has a bad reputation. I clicked on it and one of the posts on this thread had my T's name on it because she is a professor at this university as well as a T. I found out from this post that she, along with other professors at this university, is getting sued for mistreating a student!

I googled this lawsuit and found out that she was involved in punishing a student unfairly. I read that this student reported to a professor that one of her practicum sites had been engaging in unlawful behavior (photocopying measures illegally). She was really just asking the professor what she should do. They told her to keep just photocopying the measures. Then she brought it up again to this professor because she really wasn't sure it was legal (and she also wanted to tell the professor about some other shady things happening at this site). And THEN the professor reported her to the disciplinary board of the program FOR PHOTOCOPYING THE MEASURES that the professor had TOLD her she could photocopy!

I found out my T was the CHAIR of the disciplinary board who issued a severe reprimand to this student and that my T in particular recommended that this student seek out psychotherapy (and, inappropriately, announced the exact issues this student should address in therapy). IN ADDITION, I found out that my T later failed this student in a class unfairly, after this all took place. Something really fishy? This student's records in my T's class were whited out and replaced with bad scores. ??? There were other accusations against my T listed in the lawsuit that I read, like telling this student she was required to do certain things that weren't required of other students, generally being flaky and unavailable to this student, etc. Apparently this student later got expelled from the university.

Now, I don't know the outcome of this lawsuit -- the law proceedings are ongoing right now apparently -- but I do know that I am really troubled by reading this information about my T. So far, I have liked this T. But now.. to what extent can I really trust her? What parts of this story am I missing? Was my T really unethical like this? Or was this student problematic in other ways not mentioned in the lawsuit? Could any of these allegations be true?? I know that my T is only teaching classes at this university now and is no longer in an administrative role on the disciplinary board. Did she step down or was she demoted? Did this happen because the accusations are true?

I don't know what to do. I'm not sure how to bring it up to my T. It's not really my business, is it? But I'm worried it will affect how much I am willing to open up and trust this T now. These are pretty serious allegations against my T. Should I ask? How should I ask? Is it really my place? What if she refuses to talk about it?

I'm just not sure what behavior is appropriate in this case. Any help will be SO much appreciated.

WOW.

I think if it were me, I would probably sit with the information for a few days or a week or two - because sometimes once I've had time to digest something, I see it differently. If I still felt really alarmed and distrustful after that, I would HAVE to bring it up. This is public information that you stumbled across by accident, but that has real potential to affect your therapy, if it makes you feel that you can't trust your therapist.

But, I would guess that if there is an ongoing legal investigation, she will refuse to talk about it.

Wow. I guess I really don't know. What a difficult situation to be in.

All appropriateness aside, what do you WANT to do?

[Kacey2]

Oh Jexa I've missed you soooo much! I was really excited to see you post. I know you are taking a break still but I wanted to jump in and say Hi.

It sounds like quite a fiasco that your t was involved in. I am not sure what advice I can give you but I do know that for you this is definately a big deal and something that will affect your therapy if you do not discuss it with her. It reminds me of your boss at work and how shady he is.

First off you said it is not your business, but it is. It will most certainly affect the outcome of your working alliance with new t. It is also a very sensitive issue for you since this is what you are going to graduate school for. It is public knowlege and I bet your new t knows you well enough by now to know that you are one smart cookie who will for sure check on the history of the person you have hired to care for and guide you. So with that said I think it is imparitive that you talk to her about it.

Ok #2. My t is the clinical director at the clinic and I know that he deals with a lot of administrative issues. For instance two t's were all of a sudden just gone from there and even though I had nothing to do with them I was well aware that they did not practice there anymore. I questioned my t if he had fired them and of course he did not disclose anything but said one had left after the other on her own will. So I came to the conclusion that he fired the one and the other didn't agree and left. Well it bothered me because it made me feel nervous that they would just up and let t's go and what about their clients? Didn't they worry about how that might affect them? And would my t just up and leave me? Did they say goodbye? etc. ect..

So t reassured me that they do think long and hard about those decisions and really make sure that those clients are taken care of the best way that they can in those situations. And that he wasn't going anywhere.

The reason I tell you this is because part of me was relieved that t was the so called "grown up" and had to deal with all of these things but I did not need to worry about them. He would take care of them and it was not to burden me. He was there to take care of my needs. I also felt like oh my gosh, he has so much stuff to take care of. But then I went right back to it's ok he can handle it. So maybe you could just let her be the grown up t that she is supposed to be and you could settle into a role of receiving (one that I know you are not used to). You know, the child role, where you don't have to worry about all that. Pretty soon you will be in the other spot but not right now and not right here. Just let her take care of you. It sounds like so far she has done a pretty good job at it.

I am glad to hear from you Jexa! Come back when you can ok? Take care, peace, and !

[SpiritRunner]

Oh my goodness!!
It seems to me that some way or another this does need to be discussed.
I had an odd situation with my T - and it was only a few days after we had had a session where I felt like she was real, that I could trust her. I was doing some googling, came across her name, and being curious, looked - it was in some complaints section of an online newspaper website. Someone who was a disgruntled former client displeased about counsel she had given to him and his wife in the midst of an acrimonious divorce, involving a child, too - not to give many details....but the upshot was, he was making various accusations and talking about how corrupt she was. And I was like, OMG! What is the real story here?! Can I still trust her?! The guy sounded like a sort of a loser in the letters he was writing....but still, I had no way of knowing what to think, because I didn't know what the story was at all......
I struggled with the question of how to bring it up and I ask her.....I didn't right away. But then a session or two later, there was some kind of opening, and I said, you know, there was thing I found online.......and she explained as much of the story as she reasonably could, and thanked me for bringing it up, because it was/is the sort of thing that can really affect therapy, hinder trust. So it helped me that she was honest about the situation (without breaking other clients' confidentiality, of course) so that I could see that it was a difficult case she had handled the best she could....so being able to discuss it with her did help me and help keep my trust alive. She wasn't mad about me bringing it up; she was glad for the chance to defend herself, and impressed I actually did bring it up!
So.....this is something I would carefully consider asking for further clarification/explanation about, if it is indeed still bothering you after a few days or so!

[Yoda]

If it were me I would have to bring the topic up with my therapist. Though likely she would not be able to discuss it much since the lawsuit is still pending. But she could talk about trust and how this affects it. Good luck.

[MK21204]

As you said, because it may affect how you feel about opening up with your therapist, it is your business. You don't need to be nosy, just say you read some things and would like to hear her point of view. After all, we should never go by hearsay, and there are two sides to every story. I don't think it would be out of line to ask about the situation. The worst that could happen is she tells you she is not at liberty to discuss that information.

[pinkpony]

wow..ur situation sounds pretty tough ..i think if i were u i'd talk about it to someone else first, some sensible trustworthy friends or maybe another professional in that field and see what they had to say, and then make my decision ..i dont think you should go directly to this therapist before having talked to someone else, or at least i wouldn't because im easily swayed ..good luck, hope it gets settled soon!

[Melbadaze]

bring it up immediately with your T..therapys about honesty...

[Fartraveler]

Something really fishy? This student's records in my T's class were whited out and replaced with bad scores. ???

That is really fishy, and I'll tell you why.

I'm a grad student, and have taught college classes, and I can tell you that white-out is totally out of the picture. Everything is done online. Grades are stored online, and grades are submitted to the registrar online. Nothing is done on paper. About the only way to get something in paper is if a student asks for a copy of their transcript.

If your T wanted to change the student's grade, she would do it online, and there wouldn't be a record.

So, to me, this story doesn't add up.

I'd see what your T has to say about it.

-Far

[elliemay]

I'm with Far on this one. There are always two sides to every story, and something sounds very iffy about some of the claims being made.

If the matter actually does come to court, you might get a better picture of what is going on if you went to the proceedings. I would certainly withold judgment based solely on what you read on the internet.

If there is pending litigation she likely can not discuss the details of the case with you, and in actuality, she probably shouldn't anyway.

[Perna]

I would find it interesting/upsetting, but like the rest of my T's life, would decide I did not want to spend the energy worrying about situations that are not part of my life and relationships.

No way I can know what happened between T and that student and who the student is, etc., not my job, but I would use as much logic as I could like Fartraveler to distance myself from the situation (if the student was expelled from the school, the professor wouldn't be doing that, the school would and would have to have an awfully lot of "official" people who thought the student had a problem I'd think, like the Tucson shooter and his school).

It seems likely to me that the student got caught and then concocted the story after the fact about having approached the professor; it doesn't make sense for the professor to have ratted out the student for "spite" after the student approached to ask was it okay.

[ladyjrnlist]

Always reserve judgement until the outcome and the facts are clearer. Also, as others have said, talk to your T about this right away.

[jexa]

This lawsuit is more complicated than just the facts I've said on here. The whole thing was 92 pages long and I read the entire account. My T was just a part of this story. I don't think this student could have made this entire thing up. Especially since I have heard bad things about this university from other sources as well. I think there is another side of this story and I haven't passed judgment on my T yet at all. But I can't help that I feel more wary toward my T than I used to feel.

I would like to discuss it with her appropriately. My concern is that it might make her angry that I brought it up, or she might flat-out refuse to discuss it, in which case I believe my therapy will be damaged even worse than if I didn't bring it up at all.

I guess she wouldn't be worth her salt if she was the kind of T who wouldn't find a way to discuss this with me in a way that didn't violate any legal stuff. I have a feeling she will have reassuring things to say. I am hoping that she will be able to show me that I can still trust her.

I mean. But. What do I SAY? Just, hey, this is what I heard, just letting you know I read about this and what do you have to say about it??

[Perna]

I would just say something like, "I heard about you, the University, and the lawsuit with that student, and it makes me anxious about my relationship with you."

It is likely that she might want more information about what exactly makes you anxious (since the lawsuit and what actually happened is out of your purview) so you may have to come up with a more exact, "if such a bad situation can happen in your relationship with that student, I don't see how our relationship is different, why something like that couldn't happen between us."

[with or without you]

Ugh. Personally, I would find it upsetting. And then I would be devastated if everything turned out to be true...because I sort of lionize my T, I put her up on a pedestal somewhat and sometimes forget that she is human. If it were me, it would complicate the therapy entirely. This is serious information you found out, and you must tell her now. I think what you said above is perfect: "Hey, I have something unfortunate to tell you. I found out this info on a psych message board I read (wasn't googling around for information on you). I feel I must tell you because it's complicating my relationship with you."

Good luck...

[googley]

((((((((((Jexa))))))))))

It is good to see you, but I'm sorry such a complicated and troubling situation is what brought you back. As it is public information and you are looking at universities it isn't beyond the scope or reason that you would come across this information. Part of being a therapist is being ready to deal with the information that is out there and how to deal with it when clients find it. I think you should bring it up as it is obviously troubling you (and it would trouble me too). As others have said, because it is still in litigation she probably can not talk to you about the details of the case, but she can talk to you about how it effects you working together. Even after the case is finished being litigated, depending out the outcome, she still might not be able to talk about the case. Take care of yourself.

Originally Posted by jexa

This lawsuit is more complicated than just the facts I've said on here. The whole thing was 92 pages long and I read the entire account. My T was just a part of this story. I don't think this student could have made this entire thing up. Especially since I have heard bad things about this university from other sources as well. I think there is another side of this story and I haven't passed judgment on my T yet at all. But I can't help that I feel more wary toward my T than I used to feel.

I would like to discuss it with her appropriately. My concern is that it might make her angry that I brought it up, or she might flat-out refuse to discuss it, in which case I believe my therapy will be damaged even worse than if I didn't bring it up at all.

I guess she wouldn't be worth her salt if she was the kind of T who wouldn't find a way to discuss this with me in a way that didn't violate any legal stuff. I have a feeling she will have reassuring things to say. I am hoping that she will be able to show me that I can still trust her.

I mean. But. What do I SAY? Just, hey, this is what I heard, just letting you know I read about this and what do you have to say about it??

Hi Jexa!

I think you said it right here....I believe you do need to bring it up and see how your T responds. Even if she can't talk about it for legal reasons, I would hope she would respond compassionately to your concerns.

In fact, you might say something like that to her: "Look, I came across this public info...blah blah blah....I realize you may not be able to discuss details with me, but I find it troubling and I wonder if you can reassure me in some way?"

[MissCharlotte]

I agree with Perna/ You must bring it up right away. Since it's out on the net the information is public. What a difficult situation but the whole thing sounds fishy to me.
Good luck.

[Symbiosis]

I don't know what photocopying measures illegally means, but if your T is guilty it violates educational and workplace ethics. Big time. Retaliatory actions like that against a student is serious business. Keep an eye on how that plays out.

[Oceanwave]

Jexa, I wouldn't worry about this. Legal cases can be messy and complicated and there is no way you can correctly guess what really the truth is. There are just too many sides and different aspects of the case. If you are happy with your T as a T and like the way she works with you, just keep working with her. You might want to bring it up with her nevertheless, especially if it is affecting you so much, and I am sure if you do she will be able to handle it with the necessary professionalism. But frankly, I don't think it's worth getting yourself sucked into all this and letting it occupy your thoughts too much. Let her sort out and worry about her own problems and don't make them your own.

[WePow]

(((((Jexa))))) That does feel - yucky. I know! One of my closest friends, who is my mentor, was my friend for 2 yrs without my knowing anything about his past. I thought he was just a retired T. I stumbled across a legal case one day while googling his name and some of his research work for some reason.

Well, I won't go into those details - but will say it involved my mentor loosing his license. I felt SHOCK - OUTRAGE - insulted, let-down, betrayed. I felt all those emotions. I didn't want to talk with him or anything else. Reading through that huge hearing document with those details made me physically sick. I never wanted to talk with him again. It hurt. ((So I do understand a bit about the emotion you may have felt reading what you read)).

But I asked him about it. And I listened to his side of the story. Come to find out, most of HIS side of the story had been totally left out of the case! It was not a matter of him saying stuff to protect his name to me, it was just that all the facts were not there. I knew him as a human and was spot-on when I felt while reading that case that there was NO WAY he could have done what they said he did. Sure enough, there were political issues at work in the background. People who wanted him removed from the position he was in and when he wouldn't back down, they decided to destroy his reputation. It is a dirty game some people play, but that happens in life sometimes.

Bottom line is that I had to choose if I believed what strangers said over what my friend and mentor told me. I felt my heart say to trust him, and I did so. A few years later one of the "witnesses" against him came forward and admitted that she had been paid to lie about him! Of course he was too old to practice by that time. But I heard about that and knew I did the right thing by trusting my heart.

I am not saying this to hijack the thread and that is all I will say on that subject. But I wanted to share it with you so you can see that there really are many sides that we don't see or read about in those documents.

If I were in your shoes, I might bring this up with T in a way that allows her to talk without any disclosure. "T, hypathetically speaking - suppose a client read about his or her T doing X,Y,Z ...." The use of "I have a friend who .... " can be a rescource that allows people to talk indirectly about things they can't talk about directly for legal reasons. Just an idea.

Sending you tons of hugs!!

[Amazonmom]

Wow that's a hard one. Only you can decide if you really want to ask your T some tough questions. I would have to end up asking, because I wouldn't want a T that did such things. Others will have different views about this.

[jexa]

AAAAAAAAAA OMG! So I actually work with someone who goes to school at that university where my T was working! And today I came into work and got into a conversation with this girl and I sort of mentioned the lawsuit to her while we were both waiting for something. She got a certain look in her eye and told me about her problems with this university and that she wanted to leave the school soon. Then I sort of mentioned my T's name, just like, "Oh and I heard that one professor -- what was her name, Dr. XX? -- did this! Could that really be true?"

AND SHE SAID.

"Oh yeah I believe it. Dr. XX is completely crazy, totally nuts. Plus she hates women! In the class I took with her she gave all the women B's, and all the men A's. She's actually not at the university anymore. Not sure if she left, or if she got fired, but the school has been very cloak-and-dagger about this whole thing."

But my T's website still says she is a professor - is that a lie??

I am confused and feeling really wary now!!!

[Oceanwave]

If it turned out that everything you read and heard about her was true, what would you do then? Would you continue therapy with her?

[Perna]

How someone else feels about her as a professor is not the same as how you feel about her as your therapist. Your coworker obviously does not like the woman but her nondescript, over-the-top, generic negatives and "knowledge" of what grades all the women/men got tell me more about your coworker than about the professor.

Just keep with your decision to ask about how the university news affects yours and her relationship and, you should be able to learn more that is germane to you. If she is so "completely crazy, totally nuts" and "hates women" you should be able to tell that; one can't hide that. If you feel she gets angry or defensive in her discussion of the subject then she may not be the therapist for you is all, the rest of her literal work problems are hers; being a college professor is worlds away from being a therapist; she could be good at one and not the other.