[Suratji]

I'm not referring to the clinical diagnosis but to a generic self-love. I can see that those of you on PC have some serious emotional wounds from which you need help in healing. And I applaud you for working hard towards that healing. But for me, I'm seeing that my new-found attraction to therapy is simply and only an elitist exercise in self-indulgence.

Where else can I show how much I love myself except with T. Only there can I, in reality, make love to myself. Only there can I talk about myself non-stop. Only there can I think only about myself. Only there can I hang on my every word and thought. Only there can I believe how important and precious I am. Only there can I accept my own self-accolades.

Sure, I can moan and groan about my lacks and faults. But, dang, they're MY lacks and faults. Oh, what pleasure to examine them in detail and to explore their possibilities. And what about my childhood? Oh the most important childhood ever - because it leads to ME.

Have I suffered in my life? Oh, sure - but hasn't everybody? In therapy I can so very feel sorry for myself. Oh, I can plumb the depths of my own self-manufactured sorrow. I can enjoy the perverse enjoyment of being a Being in pain.

Do I love therapy? Wouldn't give it up for nothing!!

Please please don't think this tirade reflects on any of you. I have read your true tales of misery and my story is not yours.

[lastyearisblank]

Heh heh... Suratji, i bet you're your therapist's favorite client.

[Suratji]

Originally Posted by lastyearisblank

Heh heh... Suratji, i bet you're your therapist's favorite client.

Well, sure, how could I believe otherwise, being the narcissist that I am?

[lastyearisblank]

I think it is like that Walt Whitman quote, "we are large, we contain multitudes"

[Suratji]

Originally Posted by lastyearisblank

I think it is like that Walt Whitman quote, "we are large, we contain multitudes"

His poem begins, "I celebrate myself, and sing myself" but I will have to read its whole length to try to understand what he is trying to say. I suspect he may be explaining the universality of humanness and how we are all the same as we all contain 'the multitudes'.

[SpiritRunner]

I think 'me' is a favorite subject of many...... Certainly, it's one of mine! And where else can I feel so free to indulge the need than in therapy! So I do understand what you are saying.....

[In_Doubt]

I think you have to be a little easier on yourself.

The problem is, it sounds like you'll turn 'being easier on yourself' into more 'Here we go again, I'm being self-centered'.

I once said something to T about being narcissistic, and he said "You are NOT narcissistic, far from it" and I pointed to the door and said "don't you think it takes a little bit of narcissism just to walk through that door?" and I could see him sort of do this in his head. lol

the thing is, I think we're taught that it's "bad" to think of ourselves, to take care of ourselves, to like ourselves. And look where that gets us.

I just read a quote from Elanor Roosevelt this morning...Friendship with oneself is very important because without it one cannot be friends with anyone else in the world.
--Eleanor Roosevelt

I don't think she was narcissistic, but I do think she was very, very smart

[WePow]

I thought these same things about myself when I started back into therapy.
After all, my parents and brothers are way below poverty level. How could I just go spend money week after week on ME when I "should" be spending it on them for food or medicine? How could I take 1 or 2 hours (or more if you count time on PC) away from my S/O after already spending so much time away at work all week?

I enjoyed readying your post because it is very honest. And that is one of the things about therapy I enjoy very much!! Because of exactly what you said....

In my life, I was forced (even as a child) to always put every single other person in front of me. If I needed food because I was hungry, but my brothers wanted the remaining portion, I was guiltted into seeing them as more important than I was at the table. If I had a hard day at school and needed to talk to my mom or dad about things, I had to choke back my pain as I listened to them for hours talking about how bad work was or how poor we were and how hard it was to get ahead in the world.

For many people, those precious years of being a self-centered child who learns in a healthy way to love who they are first and learns how to use their wonderful selves to assist humanity, those years never happened. That learning never happened. This stage is a vital part of mentally maturing. Yes, it is a ME-ME-ME situation. That is exactly what those years of being a child SHOULD have been about to some extent.

This has good further info about why a teen brain is "selfish" - http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...velopment.html

"The only way to really appreciate the suffering is to experience it. If we had a complete depth of the suffering of others, with no means of relieving it or impacting the situation, we would live in total despair. Our lack of completely developed empathy insulates us and keeps us safe until we grow into adulthood. Our 'selfishness' is like the cocoon that protects us into adulthood. "

When we enter therapy, it is time to go back and allow ourselves this precious ME-ME-ME developmental stage.

The funny thing is that by allowing ourselves to "I-ndulge" in this process, we are actually enabling ourselves to be healthy, fully participating, members of society.

Thanks again for posting what you did because it prompted me to write this out and that helps me solidify this issue for myself.

Oh God....am I a narcissist?...This really bothers me.What if I am?...I think it is possible.How can I know?If I am how do I change it?

[Liam Grey]

I think there's a lot of truth in your words (at least speaking for myself).

I go to heal from my problems and all, but leaving out this, being able to talk about myself and being somehow put on the center of the universe, at least for that short hour, is just becoming addictive for as much as it feels... good (don't even know if it's the right word to use).

[Suratji]

Originally Posted by Suratji

Please please don't think this tirade reflects on any of you. I have read your true tales of misery and my story is not yours.

Everyone - I beg you not to think of my post as applying to any of you. Please look at the qualification I ended it with.

I do not suffer from BPD, OCD, anxiety, depression,Borderline, SI, SUI, nor any of the diagnostic mental health issues that require help from a qualified T. I did not have a terrible childhood. My adult life has been easy and relaxed.

In my post, I am only addressing my own mind and my own approach. Do not apply this thinking to your own lives. I am confident that none of you are narcissistic. You need to talk about yourselves in session and that is good and not self-indulgent.

Please don't let my post make you feel bad about yourselves. You are doing the right thing going to therapy.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by Suratji

I do not suffer from BPD, OCD, anxiety, depression,Borderline, SI, SUI, nor any of the diagnostic mental health issues that require help from a qualified T.

I don't have those things either, and I go to therapy. There are many reasons for going to therapy. You don't have to have a mental disorder. I was just talking about this with my T last session. We were talking about insurance because starting a few months ago, I might be able to get partial reimbursement from insurance for T's services, whereas I have never been able to before. But I'm not going to submit claims as I feel that would be a bit dishonest. I would have to have a medical condition in order to submit claims to insurance, and I don't.

Therapy can be about helping a person achieve their full potential in many areas of life, helping a person break dysfunctional patterns, helping a person learn to speak up to others or to recognize and express feelings, or helping a person learn to have successful relationships or to connect with another person. None of these things are necessarily pathological. Suratji, it's OK to not have a disorder and be in therapy.

[jexa]

I agree with sunrise.

I think in today's society of disconnectedness, many of us yearn for someone who actually listens to us. We might start to starve for it. Indulging it may feel narcissistic, but if it's helping you resolve any kind of problem, even a normal everyday problem, I think it's worth it.

Therapy is for anyone who could use it at all, disordered or no.

[dizgirl2011]

Originally Posted by Suratji

I'm not referring to the clinical diagnosis but to a generic self-love. I can see that those of you on PC have some serious emotional wounds from which you need help in healing. And I applaud you for working hard towards that healing. But for me, I'm seeing that my new-found attraction to therapy is simply and only an elitist exercise in self-indulgence.

Where else can I show how much I love myself except with T. Only there can I, in reality, make love to myself. Only there can I talk about myself non-stop. Only there can I think only about myself. Only there can I hang on my every word and thought. Only there can I believe how important and precious I am. Only there can I accept my own self-accolades.

Sure, I can moan and groan about my lacks and faults. But, dang, they're MY lacks and faults. Oh, what pleasure to examine them in detail and to explore their possibilities. And what about my childhood? Oh the most important childhood ever - because it leads to ME.

Have I suffered in my life? Oh, sure - but hasn't everybody? In therapy I can so very feel sorry for myself. Oh, I can plumb the depths of my own self-manufactured sorrow. I can enjoy the perverse enjoyment of being a Being in pain.

Do I love therapy? Wouldn't give it up for nothing!!

Please please don't think this tirade reflects on any of you. I have read your true tales of misery and my story is not yours.

Lol I had to laugh at how you phrase some thing but there is kind of a sadness to your post - is it not sad that in life and for you that the ONLY place you are able to think of you, to talk about you, to feel sorry for you, to have someone listen to you...is one hour a week (or however often you go to T) in therapy?? Is it not sad that you dont have that outside in your life that you would be just as happy being that narcissist in life without a therapist? In fact oddly most Narc's dont see themselves as self indulgent etc and definately dont think they need therapy lol.

I think therapy is a mixture of things - self indulgent, perhaps very much needed and perhaps just exploring if you do need it and seeing what it's all about.

If Therapy is self indulgent then I have committed that crime and i'll never regret it. For me I have spent my life looking after others, so why shouldnt i get a glimpse at what it's like to have it the other way around, even for a short period of time!

[Suratji]

Ever since starting therapy I have struggled with the whole 'self-indulgent' aspect of it. One thing that has come out about me is my attraction to being a good selfless person. My model is the image that Mother Teresa portrays - always selfless and giving.

And that's how I've tried to live my life but I'm learning that I'm not selfless and giving - that actually I have my own needs that I've neglected.

But, the thing is, I don't want to have my own needs. I want everyone else to have their needs met and I can be the giver, not the taker.

It's such a difficult idea to wrap my mind around - that I deserve having my needs met too. I don't even want to acknowledge that I have needs. So it feels very very bad to spend all that time talking about myself (but I do it very well, you know)

[jexa]

Originally Posted by Suratji

Ever since starting therapy I have struggled with the whole 'self-indulgent' aspect of it. One thing that has come out about me is my attraction to being a good selfless person. My model is the image that Mother Teresa portrays - always selfless and giving.

And that's how I've tried to live my life but I'm learning that I'm not selfless and giving - that actually I have my own needs that I've neglected.

But, the thing is, I don't want to have my own needs. I want everyone else to have their needs met and I can be the giver, not the taker.

It's such a difficult idea to wrap my mind around - that I deserve having my needs met too. I don't even want to acknowledge that I have needs. So it feels very very bad to spend all that time talking about myself (but I do it very well, you know)

This, I think this is what we all sensed in your post and why we all felt the need to defend you.

You aren't actually a narcissist. You want to be selfless and giving, that's the kind of person you want to be and have tried to be. Now you are enjoying being heard in therapy. Sure, it's a little self-indulgent, but it's also helpful. Like getting a massage when you have back pain. And you feel guilty for that. But why? I wouldn't feel guilty for getting a massage if my back hurt.

I think we all have gone through that feeling of guilt and probably still feel shreds of that ourselves in therapy. No matter what our issues are, therapy does feel good sometimes in that self-indulgent way and thereby induces guilt in those of us with certain issues. Which is why we all smelled a rat in your post and pounced on it.

And this:

It's such a difficult idea to wrap my mind around - that I deserve having my needs met too. I don't even want to acknowledge that I have needs

This is a good topic for therapy.

[lastyearisblank]

Suratji, I'm reading this book called "How to Live," that your post really reminded me of. It won the National Book Critics' Circle award this year and it is about the first modern person to write their autobiography. Montaigne was DEFINITELY a good candidate for therapy. He examines literally EVERYTHING about himself, his friendships, why the only fruit he likes he melon, why he likes checkers but not chess...

I mean in a way this book says that yes, it's self-centered to spend so much time on that, but in a very modern sense, asking these questions is how we define what ourself is. In the olden days, you might have been a blacksmith or a barrel maker for your whole life, and that was it. I really think as hard as life was back then, it was simpler in some ways. As modern people we only know ourselves by asking those kinds of questions, what are our tastes, what do we value, how do we handle relationships? There's so much more at stake in these questions because we have more power to choose.

We might be a narcissistic culture, but so many people are on facebook and blogs, not to define them selves.. but to see how OTHER people are doing that work. I think the more seriously you take it, the better you're doing for yourself... and the better example you set for others to look inward to themselves and see what actual values and feelings are there.

Yeah so that might be society's narcissistic answer... get therapy to help others.. but I happen to think it's true!

[Suratji]

Originally Posted by lastyearisblank

Suratji, I'm reading this book called "How to Live," that your post really reminded me of.

I think the more seriously you take it, the better you're doing for yourself... and the better example you set for others to look inward to themselves and see what actual values and feelings are there.

Yeah so that might be society's narcissistic answer... get therapy to help others.. but I happen to think it's true!

I will definitely read that book. Thanks for the recommendation. I happen to be a bookaholic.

As I think a bit more about it, I am in therapy to learn how to be a better person, to know myself better, to better be able to be kind and generous and in the end, not be selfish instead of just acting like I'm not selfish.

Thanks for your feedback

[Seshat]

Thank you for this, Suratji. As much as I do have a few issues to work with, I also want to be my best self and know myself even better than I already did. The reason I willingly started therapy were not the issues per se, but this self-love thingy that kept telling me I deserved happiness.

[lastyearisblank]

That damn self love thingy! It keeps telling us we could have a better life, and then when we go into therapy, to fix it, it just turns on us. I think mine is slightly haywire too.

[Suratji]

Originally Posted by lastyearisblank

That damn self love thingy! It keeps telling us we could have a better life, and then when we go into therapy, to fix it, it just turns on us. I think mine is slightly haywire too.

Has it really turned on you? And what is haywire?

Your words:

"Everyone - I beg you not to think of my post as applying to any of you.
Please don't let my post make you feel bad about yourselves. You are doing the right thing going to therapy. One thing that has come out about me is my attraction to being a good selfless person. My model is the image that Mother Teresa portrays - always selfless and giving.But, the thing is, I don't want to have my own needs. I want everyone else to have their needs met and I can be the giver, not the taker.It's such a difficult idea to wrap my mind around - that I deserve having my needs met too. I don't even want to acknowledge that I have needs. So it feels very very bad to spend all that time talking about myself (but I do it very well, you know)I am in therapy to learn how to be a better person, to know myself better, to better be able to be kind and generous and in the end, not be selfish instead of just acting like I'm not selfish."

The above are all things you,yourself stated...of your own volition....

How then,could you possibly be a narcissist?

We all live in our own personal physical bodies...taste with our own personal taste buds....think our own thoughts,emotions,.....must make choices to benefit the outcome of our own lives....if WE don't do all that we do;to our benefit....I have to ask...who will?

In view of your own statements above....I just can't believe you are a textbook N....please delve further into its definition and realize...there is a good deal of N in us all.

WO.olf

[SpiritRunner]

No, a narcissist wouldn't be wanting to be a selfless person or attracted to those who are striving to be....wanting to be a give and not a taker, this is the opposite of true narcissism, which would be more completely centered about self and making sure needs are met and not minding taking, taking, taking, believing oneself to be worthy of it all!
There is some selfishness in almost everyone, but some selfishness does not a narcissist make. Nor does recognizing you have needs worthy of being met or asking for them to be met. Selfishness/selflessness seem to be exist in a sort of mix in most people anyway.....a sort of a balance, a give and take both.
I have worried about being a narcissist too.....because I seem so good at living inside my own head and not being able to come out of it and truly see where I should be giving more. But I feel like I should give more (and know I should!) Hence guilt for being more selfish than I am selfless.....
Actually I was told I had narcissistic tendencies in my borderline......I have to admit I can see it, though I have striven against it, it is there.
But you, Suratji, are no narcissist. I can see that!

[Suratji]

It just feels so unnatural and uncomfortable to talk about myself for 50 minutes straight and to have someone listen intently to me that whole time. I love it because it feels like I'm finally being heard but it still feels wrong to me.