[zooropa]

this is a DBT skill, but obviously not specific to DBT. Willingness and acceptance is something I have been working hard on for the past several months.

I remember someone in my DBT group saying "willingness is opening up, willfulness is shutting down" and that really hit home with me because I do tend to shut down, a LOT.

I just want to talk specifically about my relationship with my T here for a minute. I have wanted to shut down, to quit therapy and walk away, many, many times over the past 2.5 years. I have always ended up making the choice to be willing, not willful, and to open up rather than shutting down.

As it's coming up for me again lately, and increasingly often or so it seems, I am starting to wonder at what point it is not longer a matter of willingness/willfulness and becomes a matter of self-respect.

[dizgirl2011]

Hey,

I am not 100% sure I am going to answer your question correctly but I think in some ways actually going to therapy, esp if you don't want to really, is a form of self respect. Therapy is about helping yourself get better and so you are doing the right thing for you by attending so I think you are respecting yourself by going especially because it's difficult at times.

[zooropa]

I guess I'm feeling differently about my relationship with my T and my own role in any ruptures we may have. In the past I was driven nearly frantic by the idea that she would leave me, and when problems arose I did and said and thought anything, including thinking that it was all my own fault, in order to fix the rupture.

Increasingly, though, I feel that, while I believe my T is very good at her job and that she has my best interest at heart, she does not always treat me fairly. I get mixed messages from her and that is very, very hard for me to process and to know how to move forward with any course of action.

I'm once again at the point of not wanting to go to my next session, and normally I would remind myself to practice willingness and open up to T. I am starting to wonder, though, if it wouldn't be better, more healing, for me to shut myself off from T, tell her why, and move on with my life.

[eskielover]

it's a very good question.....

Just a thought.....but maybe when willingness becomes automatic....it's because we have finally developed the self-respect that had been lacking when we struggle between willfulness & willingness.

I love the definitions of WILLINGNESS that they provided in my DBT group.
WILLINGNESS is:
~DOING JUST WHAT IS NEEDED in each situation, in an unpretentious way. It is focusing on effectiveness.

~listening very carefully to your WISE MIND, acting from your inner self.

~ALLOWING into awareness your connection to the universe....to the person you are talking to.

Where WILLFULNESS is:
~sitting on your hands when action is needed, refusing to make changes that are needed.

~giving up

~being ineffective instead of "doing what works"

~trying to FIX every situation

~refusing to TOLERATE the moment

Seems to me that when we are able to develop our self-respect & feel better about ourselves, then we don't try to fight life so badly & that is when willingness becomes an automatic reaction to situations.

Just a thought that popped into my mind....will be interesting to hear what others think on this topic.

[learning1]

Originally Posted by zooropa

As it's coming up for me again lately, and increasingly often or so it seems, I am starting to wonder at what point it is not longer a matter of willingness/willfulness and becomes a matter of self-respect.

I don't know about DBT, but I wonder about self-respect when t is challenging in some ways. I feel like therapy might inherently in a way be an antithesis of self respect because you have to let yourself be very vulnerable. Who is to really ever say whether the way the t leads you to change is right or wrong? I am doing it anyway because I feel curious enough about the possibility of being different from the way I am, and I feel hopeful that there are ways that can sometimes feel more meaningful for me and people around me. The question you asked is difficult to answer, i think. Maybe if you want to give more details it could help people give you a more specific answer? Do you want to write about the mixed messages you're getting from your t?

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by zooropa

I guess I'm feeling differently about my relationship with my T and my own role in any ruptures we may have. In the past I was driven nearly frantic by the idea that she would leave me, and when problems arose I did and said and thought anything, including thinking that it was all my own fault, in order to fix the rupture.

I think DBT is pretty different from the type of therapy I am involved in, which is humanistic/existential. In this type of therapy, a primary value is authenticity, rather than willingness/willfulness. So when I read your words above, I hear that you are not being authentic in the relationship, that you are doing and saying things, even if you don't believe them, just to fix the relationship. You aren't being authentic and telling the truth. And by shouldering all the "blame", you aren't requiring your T (or giving her a chance) to be authentic back to you.

Since you may be at a junction where you leave therapy, zooropa, I wonder if you couldn't try something different, since there's nothing to lose? How about telling your T how you really feel about her role in your relationship (not treating you fairly, giving you mixed messages), rather than saying things that will appease her or make the rupture appear all your fault? It must feel awful to be telling her what you think she wants to hear just for the sake of maintaining the relationship. (Perhaps this is what you mean by self-respect--that it is hard to have self respect if one is not being honest about these things.) Are you sure that you couldn't tell your T the truth and she would hear you and not abandon you?

Those words "willingness" and "willfulness" are interesting to me. I understand willingness how you may, I think. The willingness to be honest in therapy, the willingness to be vulnerable and open up, the willingness to work hard.... But willfulness, to me, means something akin to disobedient. It is a word used by one person to describe another person who isn't behaving the way they want them too. As a parent would label a child who is misbehaving. So I actually don't really like the word, as it seems very judgmental. I find it especially kind of yucky to be used by one adult about another. It places the labeler in a one-up position, and I don't believe that is good for a relationship. This interpretation could just be my sensitivity to words, though. If my T was using this word to describe me, I would want to discuss that with him. If a person shuts down in therapy, I don't think an assumption should be made that they are being willful. A person might shut down, for example, because they are very hurt or coming upon very traumatic material. It might be a signal to the T to tread carefully, offer extra support, etc.

[WikidPissah]

Hey zoo. I hesitate to answer, because I really don't want to influence you at all. In my last T relationship, something was blatantly off, and I spent two years feeling guilt and shame about something that was about him and not me. So I am very glad I finally quit, and am doing a little better with the current T. I wasn't in DBT, and I don't have a lot of "access" to my T however, and I am not sure how DBT works in that aspect...hence my reluctance to comment. I guess what I do want say is you deserve respect, and to feel that you are not always the one in the wrong. I wish you totally the best in all of this.

[SpiritRunner]

I think of willfulness as defiance, stubbornness, unwillingness to change, wanting to stay in the same pattern, same rut and not wanting to put forth the effort to truly do the work involved in making good changes......willingness is the opposite of those things, involves a humility, grace, patience, desire to change, a WILL to change and a WILL to do the work.....In me, sometimes there's both, and a bit of a fight between the two! I want willingness to win, because I know I NEED to change and I NEED to do the work if I AM going to change, hard as it is....

[zooropa]

Originally Posted by sunrise

I hear that you are not being authentic in the relationship, that you are doing and saying things, even if you don't believe them, just to fix the relationship. ...

It must feel awful to be telling her what you think she wants to hear just for the sake of maintaining the relationship. (Perhaps this is what you mean by self-respect--that it is hard to have self respect if one is not being honest about these things.)

Sunrise, yes. YES. That is pretty much exactly what I'm feeling, and what I meant by self-respect. I am willing to accept that I do have a lot of, uh, issues that make it difficult to maintain healthy relationships. I accept that I can be demanding and confusing for my T. But I can't accept that all the problems that come up in relationships, with T or whoever, are my fault. And I'm not saying that my T is blaming me, at all. I am blaming myself and then I am willing to shoulder blame that I don't authentically feel is mine to shoulder, for the sake of maintaining the relationship.

In the interpersonal effectiveness module of the DBT skills training group we are taught to priortize relationship, objective, and self-respect. It could be that while in the past preserving the relationship was my #1 priority, that has shifted and taken a back seat to preserving my self-respect.

I'm not sure where I'm going from here. I don't have a session scheduled with T until Wed, so I have a couple more days to think and talk about this.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by zooropa

..... I am willing to accept that I do have a lot of, uh, issues that make it difficult to maintain healthy relationships. .........But I can't accept that all the problems that come up in relationships, with T or whoever, are my fault. ........

oh wow. (((((((((((((((((((((( zoo ))))))))))))))))))))))

same here. This is what I need to tell T and it's to scary. If you tell yours, how about sharing how it went? these are for you

[Suratji]

I very much agree with Sunrise

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by zooropa

In the interpersonal effectiveness module of the DBT skills training group we are taught to priortize relationship, objective, and self-respect. It could be that while in the past preserving the relationship was my #1 priority, that has shifted and taken a back seat to preserving my self-respect.

Zooropa, I don't see why one would have to give up one's self respect in order to preserve an important relationship. In any relationship worth having, both people respect each other and can respect themselves for their conduct in the relationship. I think you should be able to have a strong T relationship AND keep your self respect. They are not mutually exclusive! I would like to see you talk about this with your T. I think most Ts would not want their clients to give up their self respect in order to have a relationship with them. Do you think there is a chance at all that your T would want you to keep your self respect yet maintain the relationship? Zoo, you are the one who is making the inauthentic concessions to your T in the name of relationship. No one is doing that to you. That's good news, in a way, because you can stop that if you want.

Originally Posted by zooropa

In the interpersonal effectiveness module of the DBT skills training group we are taught to priortize relationship, objective, and self-respect.

Just wanted to add that I can see this set of priorities easily leading to being a doormat in a relationship (not necessarily you with your T, but in general in a friendship, a romantic relationship, etc.). I think it's kind of a dangerous path, as the person can wake up one day and find themselves taken advantage of, abused, etc. So if that is the order of priorities, I think one must maintain some vigilance to keep things in balance. (Perhaps this is one of the skills you learn in DBT.) My own thought is that one shouldn't "settle" for the sort of relationship in which one loses one's self respect (been there, done that!).

Good luck, Zoo.