[Chopin99]

After my last session, I was confused about my T's actions toward me. This is what I plan to say to her related to this:

I realize I’m not going to let any thing, person, feeling, or situation get in the way of my healing!!!! I'm starting to make progress and nothing is going to get in the way of that! I want for the first time to live free in the destiny God has for me. That is my short-term plan. However, in typical Chopin fashion, I am considering the future. I actually feel silly asking this, but you have made me feel comfortable enough that I won't be ridiculed for asking and that you will tell me the truth, whether I like it or not. That is progress, no? How do you feel about post-therapy contact or associations? I realize you might have strict boundaries about this. I realize you might have absolutely no interest in me in this manner whatsoever. I realize it’s clichéd. I realize I may be a long way from finishing therapy. I will tell you what brought this to mind. I have genuinely grown to like and love you as a person and sister in Christ. When you mentioned how you were physically weak and needed to walk, I realized my own need to do this. I pictured having you as a walking partner; walking and talking about trivial, non-therapeutic topics. I also need people from the community on my human rights committee at work. You came to my mind as being an intelligent, challenging member of the committee wherein you could learn more about the fascinating population I work with. I also hate the thought of going through all this with you then losing you from my life completely. So for what it’s worth, once I am well and truly finished and there is nowhere else for me to go in therapy and I can stand on my own, I would still like to be associated with you somehow. I am not talking about being "BFF's", but rather someone I might get together with on occasion for lunch or coffee or the walks I mentioned above. I could see you as an HRC member. We have things in common, we both work in the human services field, and I’m still considering going back to obtain my master’s in counseling.

Any thoughts?

[kaliope]

that sounds like a very well planned approach to bring up the topic of having a relationship after therapy.

Just to let you know though, if youre in the US, the code of ethics does not allow for relationships outside of therapy for two years i think it is. so be armed with that knowledge in your decision to talk with her about this.

There are two issues here, it seems to me:

1) That you feel confused by what your T said/did last week and it made you feel that maybe she would be willing to be friends with you. One way you could tippy toe into this conversation would be to raise your confusion.

2) I just think you explained really well what you were looking for from her, in a very nondemanding, mature way. However, I really wonder about the timing of saying this NOW (particularly since you also have a trauma agenda for this session as well, as you said in another thread). Have you thought about how it might derail your therapy if she answers in a way that is other than "yes"? And why you want to raise this issue now, as opposed to near the end of therapy? What are you hoping that her answer to this question will do for you?

No requirement to answer these questions. I get the urge to ask. My T offered to walk me out to my car after last week's session because a somewhat aggressive panhandler has been coming up to me after I get into my car, asking me to roll my window down. I felt a stab of regret as I left him at the curb, a kind of regret about not having met him under normal social circumstances. I think he would be a kick @ss friend. I've had men friends all my life, but I currently could use one right about now.

So I've been thinking about this issue these past few days, but I know that if he were to say no, or to defer the issue until I'm ready to quit, I'd be really hurt. Even if the answer were what I think the rules are for his field -- social relationships only after 2 years post therapy-- I'd still be hurt no matter how much I would intellectually understand that he couldn't. What, you won't break the rules for me ?

Anne

[Chopin99]

Originally Posted by kaliope

Just to let you know though, if youre in the US, the code of ethics does not allow for relationships outside of therapy for two years i think it is. so be armed with that knowledge in your decision to talk with her about this.

Kaliope, the two year rule is for sexual relationships. I've done my homework.

Originally Posted by 3rdTimesTheCharm

There are two issues here, it seems to me:

1) That you feel confused by what your T said/did last week and it made you feel that maybe she would be willing to be friends with you. One way you could tippy toe into this conversation would be to raise your confusion.

2) I just think you explained really well what you were looking for from her, in a very nondemanding, mature way. However, I really wonder about the timing of saying this NOW (particularly since you also have a trauma agenda for this session as well, as you said in another thread). Have you thought about how it might derail your therapy if she answers in a way that is other than "yes"? And why you want to raise this issue now, as opposed to near the end of therapy? What are you hoping that her answer to this question will do for you?

The timing has to do with my OCD; I'd rather know now than get my hopes up for however long I'm in therapy. It will not derail my therapy because I am prepared for whatever answer she gives me. I just want to know "is it a possibility or not?" The answer will simply reduce anxiety. I will accept the relationship for what it is, not for what it might or might not be, for whatever it's worth. I've put a great deal of thought into this!

[bluemountains]

Hi Chopin,
In reading about your relationship with your t in past posts, it seems that you have already developed a friendship, or at least it appears so in your interactions during your sessions. My impression is that you have been a great support for her as she has gone through her treatments, meaning that your therapy went in a different direction than most of us experience. Also, you have been able to explore your faith with her. This is special, too.
You have said that you are prepared for her answer, and if this is the case, I think you should ask the question. After all, since your last session, this has been on your mind, and you would share any other thoughts with her. Personally, my OCD does the same to me, and I would have to ask.
Hugs,
Bluemountains

[beautiful.mess]

I would have to ask too. Actually, did you read the thread I started several days ago, where I couldn't take it anymore and had to ask my T a question about our relationship? I think the similarity here is the NEED to know. Like, NOW. I have ocd too, and I tried and tried to put off the question, but I got to the point where I didn't care what the answer was, or if I made myself appear like an idiot. That nagging feeling kept picking at me and picking at me. So I asked. Through the course of the conversation, he ended up answering another question I hadn't asked about (about post therapy friendship) and the answer, in not so many words, was that there will be none. For the most part, I'm OK with that.....well, for now I am. I'm a little bummed too, because yeah, he would be a great friend for me, esp since I have not ever had the privelege of having a man for a friend with no "expectations", mutual trust and respect, etc. But it's not going to happen. Even so, like you, I'm glad he answered me now (even though I didn't ask him LOL) and got it out of the way so I don't have to agonize over it in the future. *sigh*

So, as long as your REALLY sure you can handle her "no" (if there is one) I would go ahead and ask. I totally hear you on the NEED to know though. You have the right to ask your T anything you want; you certainly articulate yourself well enough. Good luck!

[crazycanbegood]

Possibly an unwelcome comment: I just think that at this moment you are setting yourself up for hurt and disappointment. Focus on healing yourself first.

[unaluna]

I think you are diagnosing yourself, calling it your OCD. You have a lot of "reasons", and I am not nearly as articulate as you are (although yeah I can talk up a similar storm!), but all this logic and rationale is like before, prep talk out of touch with your FEEEEELINGS (as a T used to intone), and I still feel like you're beating around the bush? So what is this anxiety about the future really asking / masking? WILL you ever be done with therapy? Do you need an advanced degree for T/mom to accept/recognize you? Is your work valuable if you're the only one doing it, T/mom isn't watching you? This might be rapprochement (my favorite phase!). Which may be where T's question of, why give HER the power, comes from. OH! I think I am getting it myself. Why not ask someone who can freely and without reservation say yes? Because if THEY reject you, they reject YOU. If T rejects you, it's because of the r/s, AND it/T just proves AGAIN, you aren't GOOD ENOUGH? Which will surely mess up your therapy. And honestly my intent at the beginning of this was just to ask/answer, why are dual r/s verboten?

[Chopin99]

Originally Posted by bluemountains

Hi Chopin,
In reading about your relationship with your t in past posts, it seems that you have already developed a friendship, or at least it appears so in your interactions during your sessions. My impression is that you have been a great support for her as she has gone through her treatments, meaning that your therapy went in a different direction than most of us experience. Also, you have been able to explore your faith with her. This is special, too.
You have said that you are prepared for her answer, and if this is the case, I think you should ask the question. After all, since your last session, this has been on your mind, and you would share any other thoughts with her. Personally, my OCD does the same to me, and I would have to ask.
Hugs,
Bluemountains

This therapy relationship has been very different from previous relationships in the way of reciprocity. However, I am unaware of her methodology with other clients; so maybe she's that way with everyone. I won't know until I ask.

Originally Posted by beautiful.mess

I would have to ask too. Actually, did you read the thread I started several days ago, where I couldn't take it anymore and had to ask my T a question about our relationship? I think the similarity here is the NEED to know. Like, NOW. I have ocd too, and I tried and tried to put off the question, but I got to the point where I didn't care what the answer was, or if I made myself appear like an idiot. That nagging feeling kept picking at me and picking at me. So I asked. Through the course of the conversation, he ended up answering another question I hadn't asked about (about post therapy friendship) and the answer, in not so many words, was that there will be none. For the most part, I'm OK with that.....well, for now I am. I'm a little bummed too, because yeah, he would be a great friend for me, esp since I have not ever had the privelege of having a man for a friend with no "expectations", mutual trust and respect, etc. But it's not going to happen. Even so, like you, I'm glad he answered me now (even though I didn't ask him LOL) and got it out of the way so I don't have to agonize over it in the future. *sigh*

So, as long as your REALLY sure you can handle her "no" (if there is one) I would go ahead and ask. I totally hear you on the NEED to know though. You have the right to ask your T anything you want; you certainly articulate yourself well enough. Good luck!

Yes, I need to know NOW. I'd like to know rightnow, but I must wait until Wednesday.

Originally Posted by crazycanbegood

Possibly an unwelcome comment: I just think that at this moment you are setting yourself up for hurt and disappointment. Focus on healing yourself first.

ANY comments are always welcome! I think I will handle her answer fine, but I may have some disappointment. My OCD is kicking; I need to know the boundary now. I cannot focus on the healing until I know the answer. I can want something with all my heart, but that doesn't mean I'm entitled to get it. My faith helps me with that and I'm trying to be realistic about it! Basically, no matter what, I know I will be okay.

I've been in therapy twice, I have a B.A. in psychology, and I teach my employees about therapeutic relationships and I have never been in, studied about, or taught about a therapeutic relationship quite like the one I have with my T. I like it the way it is now, but it may not be appropriate for me and if it isn't in my best interest, I need to know that now rather than in the future!

[Chopin99]

This is gonna be fun. I like when you respond, hankster, because you always make me think! I'm going to address each issue separately here.

Originally Posted by hankster

I think you are diagnosing yourself, calling it your OCD. You have a lot of "reasons", and I am not nearly as articulate as you are (although yeah I can talk up a similar storm!), but all this logic and rationale is like before, prep talk out of touch with your FEEEEELINGS (as a T used to intone), and I still feel like you're beating around the bush?

I am not diagnosing myself; I have been diagnosed OCD by two therapists, two pdocs, and my GP. My T's approach is a blend of logic and feelings. She talks a lot about making choices, based on both. She really doesn't focus on feelings toward external influences, she directs me to my feelings about me. It appears she doesn't want me to care about the opinions of others at all.

Originally Posted by hankster

So what is this anxiety about the future really asking / masking? WILL you ever be done with therapy?

This is my third round of therapy, each for different issues. I believe that this round, although it may take a year or two, will end just as naturally as the other two. Both of my past terminations were handled appropriately by both me and the therapist. I have faith in current T to do the same. She seems to have my best interest at heart and attempts to remain partial.

Originally Posted by hankster

Do you need an advanced degree for T/mom to accept/recognize you? This might be rapprochement (my favorite phase!). Which may be where T's question of, why give HER the power, comes from.

Most importantly, I know that the work I do is important. My clients, employees, coworkers, and boss also let me know that all the time. My family is very proud of my career. T remains insistent that we are equals, no matter the education level. I got my B.A. in psychology because my original career path was to be a therapist, but let's just say things worked exactly like they were supposed to! When I told her that was my original plan and was thinking about going for it following this round of therapy, she gave me the following advice:
Positive:
1. It's a very rewarding job.
2. Pleasure of helping people heal.
3. T knows she's "called" to do the work.
4. She said she'd help me in anyway she could if I felt "called" to do it.
Negative:
1. She's still paying off student loans 6 years post-graduation. My own research shows it would probably cost $25,000 for me to obtain a master's degree.
2. I make almost as much money as a program director as she does as a therapist.
3. She has to purchase her own insurance (mine is provided through my company...free) and rent her office.
4. There's no such thing as sick or vacation time (so all that time out dealing with cancer has probably sucked @ss financially). Don't work, don't get paid.
5. It is very hard work to be really good at it.
So, she's not trying to sway me either way. She's giving a realistic perspective of a possible life choice I have been interested in since college.

Originally Posted by hankster

OH! I think I am getting it myself. Why not ask someone who can freely and without reservation say yes? Because if THEY reject you, they reject YOU. If T rejects you, it's because of the r/s, AND it/T just proves AGAIN, you aren't GOOD ENOUGH? Which will surely mess up your therapy.

If she rejects me, most likely it's due to a predetermined boundary because she has told me she truly likes and loves me. That doesn't tell me I'm not good enough; it tells me I have a T who has made choices for herself based on her own healthy boundaries based on her ethics. Her boundaries are her choice. She's teaching me in regard to situations in my life wherein someone "rejected" me that most of the time, the choices of others have absolutely nothing to do with me. It has to do with them and what they could/couldn't do at the time. It absolves both myself and others of blame. The longer I think about that, the more it actually makes sense.

Originally Posted by hankster

And honestly my intent at the beginning of this was just to ask/answer, why are dual r/s verboten?

IMO, dual relationships shouldn't be engaged in while therapy is ongoing because of the bias it creates on both sides. The client may become afraid of losing the friendship due to something they tell the T about themselves that might cause the friendship to rupture. Similarly, The T may become hesitant to tell the client a difficult truth the client needs to hear to heal. It becomes about the reciprocal relationship and takes the authenticity out of the therapeutic relationship, which is necessary for the client to heal. Once the therapy process is over, I don't think there's anything wrong with a dual relationship between certain therapists/clients who can handle a role change, but therapists are bombarded with information that most of the time, dual relationships do not work. I don't know if that is true or not, but if you do a thorough internet search, there is very little information about successful post-therapy dual relationships and they seem to be frowned upon.

So, what it all comes down to based on my logic and feelings is this: although I may be disappointed if she says no, her decision really has nothing to do with me. It has to do with her and I cannot control her; she owns her own decisions. I would feel the same about anyone else in my life. Through my work with T, I already have a healthier perspective of rejection. I have already healed that much...and that is exciting for me to realize!!

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by Chopin99

Yes, I need to know NOW. I'd like to know rightnow, but I must wait until Wednesday.

I can relate to this.