[sittingatwatersedge]

A recent poster said
>> ...Are you in therapy because you want to be or because someone's making you go? If no one's making you go and you're doing this on your own hook, well, assumedly you're going because you think you need it and want it. If so, why fight it?
My $0.02, maybe just because it's so weird. So outside all other experiences in life. So that it's impossible to just jump in there. I have been here quite often.

>>Why not cooperate? The therapist isn't an enemy
really? OK, I know that, but it an sure feel like it sometimes.

>> she's a hired hand! Hired by you!
That's where the weirdness comes in... In my life, "hired hands" do innocuous things, like vacuuming, or lawn work; I've never had one that knew every one of my deepest darkest secrets, or who would insist on confronting me with my aberrations & inconsistencies, & play back to me the wounds & fears that cause them...

>> To help you achieve whatever goals you've set for yourself. Have you told her of those goals? Have you discussed them with her? Have you heard whatever advice she has to give on how to reach those goals? Why beat around the bush? Why not just jump in and get to work?

The person who wrote this is compassionate and intelligent, and would never knowingly hurt someone here, but actually this can come across as "Just snap out of it!"
It doesn't work that way. Everyone's journey is different; the path is long and hard, and not everyone is in the same place on that path.

>> ......... here I am as an old man, back in therapy doing what I should have done thirty-five years ago.
Carl Jung, writing about coming to terms with one's shadow self, said that some things can only be addressed when one reaches middle age or later... before that, he said, there is too much noise; we are busy growing up, going to school, seeing the world, getting into a career, starting a family, making a name for ourselves, whatever..... then later on when these tasks are done, there's time (and wisdom & maturity born of age) to look at what you can do in therapy. I wouldn't be surprised if he said somewhere that it might not be possible for some therapy work to be done at age thirty....

>> Don't blow it the way I did.
The person whose post I have quoted from here is far, far from blowing it; in fact has made some huge strides recently that take my breath away. I am only 60, so it seems I have 6 more yrs of work till I get to the place where he is now; I plan to work hard, but can hardly wait.

[rainbow8]

Thanks for your thread, SAWE, and Ygrec's, of course. I'm also in my "later years" and accomplishing more in therapy than ever before!! It's never too late. Read Mindsight and you'll hear about a 92 year old man making changes in his life!!

[stopdog]

The therapist is often the enemy.

THey are hired hands and a client is not unequal - but the therapist is the one with the knowledge of how therapy works and therefore needs to have a plan or something.

[kaliope]

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

Why beat around the bush? Why not just jump in and get to work?

The person who wrote this is compassionate and intelligent, and would never knowingly hurt someone here, but actually this can come across as "Just snap out of it!"

See, I dont read it that way at all. Its like therapy is there for me to get better and deal with things. I know what the issues are. So I treat them like a cold pool and dive right in. I trust T to handle any emotional reprocussions I may experience. But if I were to wait until I felt i was ready to wade into that pool, get adjusted to the temperature, therapy would take forever. I would find a way to back out of that pool again and again. Just seems more constructive for me to take the plunge.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by kaliope

See, I dont read it that way at all. Its like therapy is there for me to get better and deal with things. I know what the issues are. So I treat them like a cold pool and dive right in. I trust T to handle any emotional reprocussions I may experience. But if I were to wait until I felt i was ready to wade into that pool, get adjusted to the temperature, therapy would take forever. I would find a way to back out of that pool again and again. Just seems more constructive for me to take the plunge.

I wonder if you can understand how much i envy your being able to take a plunge. For me, it was nearly impossible. It took a year and a half for me to open up to T at all; she had to pry information out of me. She said recently that it was as if i was being forced to come. Kaliope, no one was forcing me but myself - but coming was as much as I could do, no more.

I don't look back on that as time wasted, just a regrettable necessity. When trust is that low, yes therapy takes longer. But it's never time wasted, if one is trying, however much or little that results in.

[ECHOES]

Rainbow is right - read about Stuart in the book Mindsight. His therapy story and how he grew is very inspiring!

I am 4+ years and still struggling. I suspect that place of struggle is a place not only of my present, but a place I got stuck in long ago.

I do wish I'd been brave enough for therapy when I was much younger, and sometimes am overwhelmed by that lost opportunity and all the other things lost as a result of not having therapy to help me when I needed it then. I also think it's harder to be in therapy at an older age when emotionally and internally I feel so much younger.

[kaliope]

SAWE - thanks for the compliment. I am sorry that you have had to struggle so in going to therapy but glad you have stuck with it and hope that you reach the point that you can open up and share what you need for your healing.

the way i ended up in therapy had something to do with my approach to therapy i think. I am 48 and have been untreated bipolar since my teens. Rapid cycler with suicidal depressions. Then ptsd on top of that from childhood abuse. In 2007 the PTSD kicked in real hard and all the memories resurfaced aggravating the bipolar even worse and my life just exploded into a million pieces. I was hospitalized against my will. So therapy was about putting my life back together. I had two jobs, I was getting my degree, I didnt feel I had time to be gentle with myself. Of course I ended up spending another week in the hospital, two weeks before graduation where i spent my time working on my final project, but i got it done and graduated. But I dont ever want to be there again, so thats what gives me that courage to jump in the pool.

I was looking for help from a very early age. I never got real help until 8yrs ago when I was put in touch with this therapist. Fortunately I am able to "use" therapy very well. Its just the way I'm made, always questioning, always looking to find inner peace, never giving up no matter what. Saying all this, I still struggle to understand the relationship and my true feelings about it. Uts been meant different things at different times, but underlying all of this is me and T working well together. Is it easy? Well its easier then living how I was living before it. There are some people who are unable to use this sort of recovery, for many reasons. Age doesn't have a lot to do with it, accept with middle to old age, I always feel there's the normal recovery mourning and the middle mourning one goes through. Is T the enermy? Only in my transferences sometimes. As my fantasys are stripped, I see her as a person also who chooses all her actions, freely, that reasures me and also helps me choose mine freely.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by kaliope

See, I dont read it that way at all. Its like therapy is there for me to get better and deal with things. I know what the issues are. So I treat them like a cold pool and dive right in. I trust T to handle any emotional reprocussions I may experience. But if I were to wait until I felt i was ready to wade into that pool, get adjusted to the temperature, therapy would take forever. I would find a way to back out of that pool again and again. Just seems more constructive for me to take the plunge.

The problem I have is I know why I have gone to see the T and I have said what I know to say about it - other than that I do not understand what I am supposed to do to "jump in" - after one has described the nature of the problem, what else is there to say about it?

[Perna]

I saw my therapist for 9 years, 1978-87, then did not see her for 9 years, 1987-96, and then saw her for another 9 years, 1996-2005; I joked with her when we terminated (we both retired and moved) that I was going to wait 9 years and do another 9 (would be 2014, when I'm 64 :-)

[CantExplain]

>> To help you achieve whatever goals you've set for yourself. Have you told her of those goals? Have you discussed them with her? Have you heard whatever advice she has to give on how to reach those goals? Why beat around the bush? Why not just jump in and get to work?

In my case, excessive focussing on goals was one of the big things that stopped me being happy.

This seems to be an "utilitarian" view of psychotherapy. "I'm paying for a service, and T should do what I say." Maybe that works for some people, but it didn't work for me.

You doctor, your lawyer and your accountant can't just "do what you say". They sometimes have to tell you that you're headed for disaster , what you want is impossible, and some of your ideas are just plain wrong. How much more so for your therapist?!

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

In my case, excessive focussing on goals was one of the big things that stopped me being happy.

This seems to be an "utilitarian" view of psychotherapy. "I'm paying for a service, and T should do what I say." Maybe that works for some people, but it didn't work for me.

You doctor, your lawyer and your accountant can't just "do what you say". They sometimes have to tell you that you're headed for disaster , what you want is impossible, and some of your ideas are just plain wrong. How much more so for your therapist?!

I disagree with the idea utilitarian view ends with "t should do what I say" - to me it is more one pays money for a service -one should be able to have the t explain what the t is doing and why in clear and nonpsychobabble, blame the client ways.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I disagree with the idea utilitarian view ends with "t should do what I say" - to me it is more one pays money for a service -one should be able to have the t explain what the t is doing and why in clear and nonpsychobabble, blame the client ways.

You feel blamed?

[gma45]

You all make me feel like there is hope for this ol 54 year old women. Thanks!

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

You feel blamed?

Yes I do. But my earlier response should have said not blamed.
To wit:
I disagree with the idea utilitarian view ends with "t should do what I say" - to me it is more one pays money for a service -one should be able to have the t explain what the t is doing and why in clear and nonpsychobabble, non client blaming ways.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

>> Why beat around the bush? Why not just jump in and get to work?

Has anyone ever noticed that these could be questions? I mean, they have question marks at the end. The person posing these could actually be wanting to know why. They could be asking you to provide some information so that you both could see why something is happening. That's not usually the way it is interpreted, though, and that is usually not what (a real question) is actually happening. Did you ever think about why the words (seeming to be a question) don't match the action (questioning your "value")? Did you (anyone) ever think about it?

[sittingatwatersedge]

>> Why beat around the bush? Why not just jump in and get to work?

Originally Posted by pachyderm

Has anyone ever noticed that these could be questions? Did you (anyone) ever think about it?

Well yes, if you read from the start, I tried to answer them already

Not everyone is able to jump in. I certainly wasn't, and after four years don't find it all that easy now.

Although I have heard it said that deep inside, each of us knows what "the work" to be done is, not everyone knows it to the point where he/she can just "get to work". It's not that easy.

And as for beating around the bush, resistance has its psychological reason for existing; it's based in the unconscious, not voluntarily summoned, and probably can't be suppressed in the interests of jumping in and getting to work; once more, it is not that easy, and therapy doesn't work that way. The dyad must work through one's resistance, and that takes time. NB: a different amount of time for each client.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

>> Why beat around the bush? Why not just jump in and get to work?


Well yes, if you read from the start, I tried to answer them already

You tried to answer them as though they were genuine questions -- which usually, in the form presented, they aren't. That was my point.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Oy... can we just stick to the topic of this thread (considering questions someone posed).

you want to start a thread about whether questions are really asked or used as rhetorical devices, etc, be my guest... on another forum maybe....

[Perna]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

You tried to answer them as though they were genuine questions -- which usually, in the form presented, they aren't. That was my point.

Even if they are an implied criticism, it never hurts to answer the questions asked. A feeling is evoked either way; whether it is curiosity (what's the answer?) or conscientiousness (they asked me a question, I should answer), anger (how dare they imply I am stupid or not trying hard enough?).

Looking at our feelings and what they tell us about ourselves is our job (I feel angry about this, where do I feel vulnerable? Oh, I see, this person implies I am too stupid or scared to just jump in and get to work; well, "I am scared, I'm working on that in therapy, doing the best I can and I am satisfied with my work" OR "I am scared, what can I do right now to work on jumping in instead of beating around the bush? Hmm. I'll make a list of what I am currently scared of and then pick one thing and list three things I could do today to help myself with that fear").

Looking at our feelings as they arise keeps us current. If we aren't sure how we feel, personalizing questions might help us. "Why do I beat around the bush?" "Why don't I jump in and get to work?" If nothing else, a feeling of defensiveness might jump out at us :-) or we might find ourselves intellectualizing/trying to avoid the personal nature of the question or, we might "agree" the questions are good questions but have the "I'm working on that in therapy, doing the best I can and I am satisfied with my work" response.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Perna

Even if they are an implied criticism, it never hurts to answer the questions asked.

At the risk, or the certainty, of hijacking this thread again, I will offer a disagreement here. I found my attempts to answer questions that were not questions to be extremely confusing, since I never got the answers right, or never understood why my answers did no good -- until I figured out that they were, in fact, not questions at all, but expressions of agita on the part of those posing the "questions" -- and agita that the questioners themselves did not realize were agita on their parts. Now that I realize it (I claim), I sidestep trying to "answer" them, and feel much better, more as though I understand what is going on. I have much more insight (again, I claim). Even when hijacking a thread, it makes me feel better to make this point.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

since I never got the answers right

A question you answer is your answer, like an opinion you give is your opinion. Unlike Gallagher had happen to him in grade school, http://gallaghersmash.com/ the teacher cannot ask for your opinion and then give you an "F" on your answer! Your answer/opinion is yours and for your own personal use :-)

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Perna

the teacher cannot ask for your opinion and then give you an "F" on your answer!

A mental health worker can. Because if the question is not really a question, but instead is an expression of frustration, if you don't respond to that person's frustration, but instead try to answer the "question", the MHW can give you an "F". Believe me (or not), I know.

[sittingatwatersedge]

still

....................................................................................... !!

Originally Posted by pachyderm

I found my attempts to answer questions that were not questions to be extremely confusing, since I never got the answers right, or never understood why my answers did no good -- until I figured out that they were, in fact, not questions at all, but expressions of agita on the part of those posing the "questions"

In law there is a saying that goes, he who frames the question wins the argument.

Questions can definitely be used to make statements that are hurtful under the ruse of attempting to create more understanding. When I used to teach college students and the university would bring in controversial speakers, there would always be at least one person in the audience who would stand up and ask a thinly veiled question that asked, "isn't everything you've said a bunch of b.s.?"

I'm sorry that you've had this experience in therapy. I've had enough ruses used against me in the past to ever want to go through them again.

Anne