[stopdog]

Have any of you specifically gone to another therapist to talk about staying or leaving the current one? If so, how many times did you go before deciding to cut the old t off or keep seeing the t? I go see other specialists all the time to get info the t I see won't tell me, but I have never gone specifically to talk to a new t about the old one and am uncertain what to expect. The one I see seems to not know what to do or have a game plan or any order to any appointment and they never connect together. I have a specific reason I have gone to see her and after a year and a half, I can see no change. She keeps asking random questions which have nothing to do with the problem and I have said all I know to say about it so I expect her to have some plan or line of questions designed to help with the problem.

[unaluna]

I was under the impression from what you've written previously that the therapeutic alliance was ruptured when she made fun of you and never apologized, if indeed such an alliance ever formed in the first place.

I consulted with my previous t/pdoc this summer when I suffered a rupture with my current T which led me to question his personal values. The pdoc's primary frame of reference was, had the therapy been working so far? If so, then continue, and if the values issue started to interfere somehow, I could always revisit my decision. But he did not feel it was a big enough reason to terminate.

So in your case, you feel you are not making progress, but perhaps the consult can help heal the rupture, which could precipitate a breakthrough. So I think it's worth looking into if you can have an open mind about it.

An alternative might be to look into some sort of short form therapy? That seems to be what you are describing. Or even shock therapy? A friend of mine had it done, she seems fine. Because honestly, insight-oriented talk therapy does not seem to be what you really want, even though you keep showing up for it?

[stopdog]

I keep going back to the one who humiliated me - I just do not engage with her in any way she could humiliate me again. There is a bizarre negative attachment I have to her - I do not know if it is an alliance or not - I have never figured out how to tell if there is any alliancing going on. I do not know if the t is incompetent or not. I know it does seem to me that neither of us knows what is supposed to go on each week that relates in any way to the reason I sought therapy. I do not know how to figure it out. That is what the consult would be for. Although I have checked out other therapists to see if I clicked better with them, and consulted for information on how to do therapy or what was supposed to happen, I have never specifically gone in to check on the therapeutic thing with me and the t. I cancelled my next appointment in order to read more books on the subject so I would know the sorts of things to tell the t, but it seems to me she should be able to focus questioning in order to facilitate it. She keeps thinking the problem has
Magically gone away despite me telling her constantly it has not. I simply do not know what else I
am supposed to say about it. I have no way of knowing the the therapy has been working or not. The t thinks it has in some nebulous and mysterious way ("we have made sense of something from your past" -so effing what? i don't agree agree but even if I did, I still have a horrible feeling all the time for absolutely no reason) I see no change for the reason I sought therapy and believe I am worse because of the insane attachment I seem to have with the woman. I don't
love her, I doubt I like her, I am not attracted to her, I don't want her to be my mother or lover or friend, but I do very much want her to understand (and admit she was wrong and apologize).

So my real question (clarification) is - what was the consultation like?(I am not seeking opinions on whether I am doing therapy correctly or if I should try a different kind etc - just what is consultation like)

[unaluna]

I HOPE SOMEONE ELSE ALSO ANSWERS, because I have only the one experience, BUT I did consult with 3 separate people. One was a longtime friend and former boss who has become a therapist. I did not confide in her about the rupture when it happened as girlfriends might do, but a few weeks later, when I was still struggling with it, I asked for her professional opinion, free, of course! I also asked my neighbor crush, as he is an MD and psychologically oriented and the smartest person in the world.

In all three consults, I felt more openness and honesty and digging and thinking on my feet was required of me than my average therapy session. I knew I had to just let my guard down and just spill if I was going to get anything out of these talks, as the rupture involved a private matter.

So for me, good experience, I was lucky to be able to talk about a devastating experience with 3 people I actually love and trust. But they all said, don't throw away a good thing over this incident.

Does that answer what a consult is like? It's whatever you need it to be? I got some different insights into my issue that made me say wow! but I basically got my premise validated.

[Perna]

Stopdog, I cannot imagine either what your current therapy is like, what it is for, or what you are expecting from therapy. T's are a "third" party to us, reflect ourselves back to ourselves so we can better seen and figure out our problems and how we want to solve them. They don't tell us how to solve them or ask any particular line of questions that magically helps us.

If you are not seeing the progress you want to see with a T, then you have to decide you want to change T's. If you see several T's with the same results each time, then it is probable that the problem of not moving forward lies in you. Interactions with another are not something you can read about to understand, you have to "do" it and experience it. If you are not able to, for whatever reason, there isn't anything someone else can do for you, they cannot get inside you and "make" you understand, make you shift your focus or perceptions so you see things the way another person might.

Going to a "specialist", they can only help you while you are there, they cannot comment or know what is going on in any other relationship, even another relationship with a T, because they are not part of that relationship. At best, they would only have your perceptions and story and, if that is where your problems are, what do they have? You would still be where you were in the first place.

[stopdog]

I am not expecting the t to solve the problem. I do expect the t to have some reason for asking the questions it asks and for that reason to have some connection to why I sought therapy. I know some people do seek consultation on their current therapist and so I was hoping someone here had done so and could describe it to me.

It's not precisely the same, but when I was in group T and in individual T with a different therapist, I felt that the group T was basically an idiot and was mishandling the group and I wasn't getting anything out of it. I talked to the group T about it individually and she said that I was making progress and that whatever issues I was having with her were of my doing.

My individual T helped me sort through these things, and I ended up dropping the group, which was a really good thing for me. I found another group (survivor led) that was incredibly supportive for me, and continued in individual T.

Specifically, during the "consult" part (over a few sessions), my T helped me figure things out in pretty much the same way that my current T does when I'm pondering the classic (for me) question, "is it me or is it (them)?" She asked me to describe what I perceived as my lack of progress, asked if there were any other way(s) to look at it and evaluate their veracity, encouraged me to hold these different ideas simultaneously in my head and check out which just seemed to fit. She asked what specific issues were troubling me about the group T, had me think about whether I'd faced these issues with other T's or other people before. She asked me if some of the things I had previously described to her as happening with other people felt similarly to the group T or group experience. Same with the issues I was having with the group process. She helped me problem solve around things I could try in group to see if that would help me, and I went back for several sessions to try these things. She helped me eventually arrive at an understanding about why the group wasn't working for me-- which I think was the question I needed to answer before I could decide to stick with it or not. And the answer was a rather complicated collection of things about me, things about the group process, and things about the group T that were keeping me from benefiting from it.

I know you mentioned that your T feels that you have made some progress, but have you tried to have a really in depth conversation with her about this issue, including asking her what she might think about your seeing another T for consultation? It might be really helpful and (if you gave her permission, of course), it also might help you for her to speak with the consultation T-- although maybe now this is sounding more like couples counseling than a consultation. Although I've known people who have done this when in conflict with their T's.

Anne

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Have any of you specifically gone to another therapist to talk about staying or leaving the current one? If so, how many times did you go before deciding to cut the old t off or keep seeing the t? I go see other specialists all the time to get info the t I see won't tell me, but I have never gone specifically to talk to a new t about the old one and am uncertain what to expect. The one I see seems to not know what to do or have a game plan or any order to any appointment and they never connect together. I have a specific reason I have gone to see her and after a year and a half, I can see no change. She keeps asking random questions which have nothing to do with the problem and I have said all I know to say about it so I expect her to have some plan or line of questions designed to help with the problem.

T and I went together to another T. One session was enough to let us work together again.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

T and I went together to another T. One session was enough to let us work together again.

Would it be possible for you to describe how the consult t worked with the two of you? Was it like couples counseling?

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Would it be possible for you to describe how the consult t worked with the two of you? Was it like couples counseling?

I see from my records that it was in March 2010.

It was quite strange. I don't have any clear recollection of what happened. The big thing for me was that T cared enough to step out of T mode and explore the possibility that she might be part of the problem.

What I do remember, was that I spelled out my complaints against T to this super-T, and they both listened and didn't interrupt. Super-T then said some stuff to me that I didn't understand, like, "Only when the horse is broken can it be truly free," and "Beauty is transformative but it can't be owned."

I told him I was still looking for someone to be my mother. He said that was a good sign. "When you give up on that, that's when psychosis happens."

T said I was being too hard on her, "abusive" in fact. That was her only complaint. Super-T asked me if it was true that I was abusive. I said it was. "Don't," he said.

In retrospect, I think the man was a complete fraud! And yet, my therapeutic relationship was saved. And he did listen. Maybe that was all that mattered.

SPECULATION:

If a couple goes to counselling with open minds and willing hearts, their marriage is already saved.

[stopdog]

I think they are all complete frauds. I am beginning to think therapy is like a placebo and clients get better because of either time or faith or a combination.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I think they are all complete frauds. I am beginning to think therapy is like a placebo and clients get better because of either time or faith or a combination.

I've sometimes thought that. I have seen therapy as a religion and as an addiction.
Some people do draw strength from faith, and some people do respond to placebos.
You could make a very good case that psychotherapy is a kind of secular Buddhism.
It is well established that, on average, adults get happier with age.

But then I remember my brother-in-law who isn't in therapy and isn't getting any better. And my best friend, likewise.

I have got better and I attribute that to psychotherapy. But I can't prove anything.

Originally Posted by stopdog

I am beginning to think therapy is like a placebo and clients get better because of either time or faith or a combination.

Researchers have done randomized controlled experiments where they assign research subjects to either therapy or "waiting list for therapy" (placebo condition). People in therapy do better on average than in the placebo group. Of course, this statistical significance or scientific average doesn't mean that everyone improves with therapy or that some people in the placebo condition didn't also get better.

For myself and the people I know in therapy, it helps for reasons beyond placebo (I've tried waiting and seeing, it doesn't work for me) or faith. But it's definitely not a panacea for everything that's wrong with everyone. Perhaps you need to move towards accepting that therapy just isn't your thing. You've said repeatedly that you've made no progress and that it causes you to physically harm yourself, and you've also said that you're not open to trying to do therapy differently than what you've been doing. You might be one of the people for whom therapy just isn't going to help.

Anne

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by 3rdTimesTheCharm

Researchers have done randomized controlled experiments where they assign research subjects to either therapy or "waiting list for therapy" (placebo condition). People in therapy do better on average than in the placebo group. Of course, this statistical significance or scientific average doesn't mean that everyone improves with therapy or that some people in the placebo condition didn't also get better.

For myself and the people I know in therapy, it helps for reasons beyond placebo (I've tried waiting and seeing, it doesn't work for me) or faith. But it's definitely not a panacea for everything that's wrong with everyone. Perhaps you need to move towards accepting that therapy just isn't your thing. You've said repeatedly that you've made no progress and that it causes you to physically harm yourself, and you've also said that you're not open to trying to do therapy differently than what you've been doing. You might be one of the people for whom
therapy just isn't going to help.

Anne

I have been trying to do it differently - to let the therapist do its thing and just go along without
trying to see the pattern or framework and then I get told the therapist has no idea why it is asking me the questions it does. I do not want to fail at this, but somebody needs to have a plan, if I don't know what to do and the therapist does not know what to do, then perhaps books or a consult will help.

[learning1]

I know I'm contributing to going off your topic of consultation t's, but this topic about legitimacy of therapy is very interesting. Thanks for the statistical data 3rdTimes.

Stopdog, usually I can't tell if your negative attitudes about therapy are based on real confusion or if they're based on you being angry and afraid of therapy. I think you really are confused sometimes.

When you say something exaggerated, like "complete fraud," then I think your negative attitude is because you're angry and afraid.

[learning1]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I have been trying to do it differently - to let the therapist do its thing and just go along without
trying to see the pattern or framework

I think that is really good for you.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by learning1

I know I'm contributing to going off your topic of consultation t's, but this topic about legitimacy of therapy is very interesting. Thanks for the statistical data 3rdTimes.

Stopdog, usually I can't tell if your negative attitudes about therapy are based on real confusion or if they're based on you being angry and afraid of therapy. I think you really are confused sometimes.

When you say something exaggerated, like "complete fraud," then I think your negative attitude is because you're angry and afraid.

Okay - would you believe partial fraud? I don't think I have a negative attitude - but certainly a skeptical one. I do not understand why therapy or what those people do has to be so mysterious and unexplainable or to succeed why a client has to roll over and let the therapist run roughshod.
I am angry and confused. I go along trying to do what I glean is the way to do it (not questioning everything and just letting it happen and going along with no framework or seeming order to any appointment) and then find out the t really does not have any reason or connection to the reason I went to see it for the questions I am being asked by the t. My feelings that no one knows what is happening seems justified at this point. I spent the appointment this week with the t going on about the holiday and what I did over it (holidays are not a big deal to me one way or the other and my life pretty much went along as usual)- I went along and answered the questions thinking surely it had some reason for asking the questions - and at the end the t admitted there was no specific reason for those questions. I do not know if this is usual therapy or not - hence the consult thing.

Therapy doesn't help everyone, but I strongly believe I would be dead if I didn't go to therapy. I hope you can find someone to help you.

Originally Posted by stopdog

I have been trying to do it differently - to let the therapist do its thing and just go along without
trying to see the pattern or framework and then I get told the therapist has no idea why it is asking me the questions it does. I do not want to fail at this, but somebody needs to have a plan, if I don't know what to do and the therapist does not know what to do, then perhaps books or a consult will help.

First of all, is there some dramatic or other reason that you have to refer to a breathing human being as an "it"? Do you really think of, and treat, your therapist as if she is a THING, because that is what your language suggests, and it is deeply disturbing. You are an educated, intelligent professional and I see no reason why you can't communicate about this issue in a non demeaning way.

"I get told the therapist has no idea why it is asking me the questions it does."

This sounds to me like your T asks you a question, and you ask why she's asking that rather than opening yourself up and actually answering the question.

Of course books and a consult might help, and I have already encouraged you to try that route.

I don't think that there is any failure on your part if it doesn't work for you. After all, we all get told to eat our vegetables and not smoke or drink, but watch the Today show any day and you'll see 100 year old people smoking with one hand and knocking back shots with the other, while subsisting on a diet of peanuts and hotdogs.

You can live a healthy and satisfying life without therapy. I do not believe that talking about one's problems is healthy for everyone. If it doesn't work, that is the failure of the therapy, not your failure. Try something else.

Best,
Anne

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by learning1

I think that is really good for you.

Clearly not since the t doesn't have a framework either.

[learning1]

I didn't want to be mean to you even though I said I think you're angry and afraid. I still think you're doing great to keep going to therapy.

I think the therapist has a general plan and an idea what s/he is doing, but you can't understand it yet. Maybe it is like before you went to law school, you couldn't exactly understand a lawyer's plan for a case because you didn't understand the laws.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by 3rdTimesTheCharm

First of all, is there some dramatic or other reason that you have to refer to a breathing human being as an "it"? Do you really think of, and treat, your therapist as if she is a THING, because that is what your language suggests, and it is deeply disturbing. You are an educated, intelligent professional and I see no reason why you can't communicate about this issue in a non demeaning way.

"I get told the therapist has no idea why it is asking me the questions it does."

This sounds to me like your T asks you a question, and you ask why she's asking that rather than opening yourself up and actually answering the question.

Of course books and a consult might help, and I have already encouraged you to try that route.

I don't think that there is any failure on your part if it doesn't work for you. After all, we all get told to eat our vegetables and not smoke or drink, but watch the Today show any day and you'll see 100 year old people smoking with one hand and knocking back shots with the other, while subsisting on a diet of peanuts and hotdogs.

You can live a healthy and satisfying life without therapy. I do not believe that talking about one's problems is healthy for everyone. If it doesn't work, that is the failure of the therapy, not your failure. Try something else.

Best,
Anne

I am using it rather than gender as a universal - I do it with lawyers, professors, plumbers, children and basically all others too. I do not intend it to be demeaning, but rather distancing. The therapist is no different than any other tool I would use to help and is not really personally involved with me. Second, I have been answering the questions without asking why for each one - that is what I have been doing differently. But eventually they need to have some relation to the reason I am there. I am not going to quit trying to understand therapy. I do not expect you to solve the problem, I was just asking for info on consults and explaining why I was looking for such info. I appreciate your info on your experience you gave earlier but stop telling me to quit trying. If I waste more of my time and money trying to figure this out, it is my problem and my anger. I am no different than anyone else who writes on here about there problems with therapists or therapy.

Again - just wondering about the consult.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by learning1

I didn't want to be mean to you even though I said I think you're angry and afraid. I still think you're doing great to keep going to therapy.
.

I did not think you were being mean. I am angry and confused.
Since the therapist told there was not a specific reason, I am lead to believe the therapist does not have a general plan. That is why I think maybe a consult could help with getting a plan.

[learning1]

Wow, this thread is busy. I made my last two posts before I saw that you replied to my first post.

Originally Posted by stopdog

Okay - would you believe partial fraud? I don't think I have a negative attitude - but certainly a skeptical one.

From my perspective, the things you say about therapy often seem like you have a very negative attitude.

Originally Posted by stopdog

I do not understand why therapy or what those people do has to be so mysterious and unexplainable or to succeed why a client has to roll over and let the therapist run roughshod.

I don't think the therapist wants to run roughshod or hurt you. I guess it's hurting you now at first, but you can learn to understand what the therapist means differently.

Originally Posted by stopdog

I am angry and confused. I go along trying to do what I glean is the way to do it (not questioning everything and just letting it happen and going along with no framework or seeming order to any appointment) and then find out the t really does not have any reason or connection to the reason I went to see it for the questions I am being asked by the t. My feelings that no one knows what is happening seems justified at this point. I spent the appointment this week with the t going on about the holiday and what I did over it (holidays are not a big deal to me one way or the other and my life pretty much went along as usual)- I went along and answered the questions thinking surely it had some reason for asking the questions - and at the end the t admitted there was no specific reason for those questions. I do not know if this is usual therapy or not - hence the consult thing.

That is funny, my ex-bf had a really similar conversation with our t about holidays. I think the therapist asks about it because most people connect with family during holidays. It is a way for the therapist to understand how you interact or do not interact with your family or friends. Even though the therapist does not have an exact plan, s/he is generally trying to get to know you better so s/he can understand how to help you.

[stopdog]

This is my second year with the t and so the t should know how I relate to family and friends. I have already talked about this in the past year.