Enlightenment: A Form of Psychopathology?

I thought that was what Epicurus was talking about. But perhaps he meant wine, not beer.

Hmmm. I've heard of Satori, but what is Moksha and where does it come from? Do you know the literal meaning of those terms? Is enlightenment a good translation or not?

Much more specific. How do you mean that?

Well, what normal American activities do you have to NOT do in order to become enlightened?

Hmmmm. Would you say that enlightenment is something you DO?

Ooooh. I LIKE that. "Knows better but gets in trouble anyway." In the back of your mind. Like your Id? I'd kind of doubt it, though. I don't know if one's Id "knows better." If I had to guess I'd say it doesn't. So what else is there in the back of your mind?

Great post! Take care.

No, I found my niche, neither leading nor following. I squeeze, brew and carry the lemonade.

It's so important to stay hydrated, I find...especially here in the arid West.

I hope I don't derail this conversation too badly if I go back to Ygrec's thread title for a moment.

-- Supposing that enlightenment were a form of psychopathology, what would its DSM description read like? I'm thinking of the "Any three of the following" part, especially.

-- When patients presented with this condition, what would they come in complaining of? Or if they themselves were unaware of any mental health concerns, what would their family and friends have observed that led them to urge the patient to seek help?

-- When diagnosing it, what other mental health conditions would it need to be distinguished from?

Well, for starters, their families might be complaining that they weren't showing up at work all that regularly these days. Nor spending enough time with the kids playing computer games. Nor watching television with the spouse.

I guess it would have to be distinguished from DDNOS, since they'd spend so much time apparently spaced out.

If they complained of anything I guess it would have to be something to the effect that they didn't understand why so many people were trying to stop them from what they wanted to do.

Of course, if they were enlightened in the jolly and sociable manner of the present Dalai Lama they might actually take part in the current election activity and run for president on the Republican ticket, easily outstripping all the present clowns.

I dunno. Me, I ain't enlightened.

I'm gonna repeat to all (not singling anyone out).

You may not be aware of your own enlightenment

Dang, that's no fun. Like eating chocolate cake and not tasting it. What's the point?

the point is that there is no point.

Which is part of the reason that I eat chocolate. I suspect that enlightened ones have no need for chocolate! Or big macs...ygrec that means you...Sheesh!

My T has pointed out two moments of enlightenment (his word) that have happened in the past two weeks-- erm, times when he says I have experienced it.

I got that these moments were special and cool to experience, so I have some sense of what he meant. And by his labeling, I can identify some other moments of enlightenment by matching my emotional and mental state to what my T said was enlightenment.

However, these are absolutely transient moments that are not even close to some permanent state of being of enlightenment. I read a conference speaker's bio on the web the other day and it stated that he "had achieved the rare personal state of enlightenment."

I thought, what an @ss. Definitely not an enlightened response by me.

Anne

I have a very strong suspicion that none of us know what the hey we're talking about. - except the chocolate references, of course.

That's the most profound comment I've read on PC for at least a year. Are you sure you're not wasted here, skysblue?

I crown you the title of having achieved the rare personal state of enlightenment.

Anne

he must have been kidding, right? God the guy needs some chocolate for sure.

You decide if he's kidding: http://www.jackhirose.com/conference...-speakers.html

Scroll down to Mr. Nucklehead. And I misquoted: it actually said, "He achieved the very rare spiritual state of personal enlightenment."

So, thread over! Just do what this dude did, easy peasy.

Anne

From what I have been told, the term Enlightenment was originally used to describe using reason and logic to try to explain the way the world works ... as in this:

Moksha is the term from Raja Yoga for release from the cycle of birth and death.

In Hinduism and Buddhism the point is to be free. They differ on what they want to be free from, how to accomplish it, and what that freedom is like. You could compare it to being asleep and dreaming, and working to realize that it is just a dream. Having realized that it is a dream, fixing the situation just isn't as important as it was before realizing that it was just a dream. Sure, a person could do it, but it is still just a dream and it is going to end at some point. A person can achieve enlightenment (or liberation) and still seem like a real jerk or just an ordinary person. A Saint, by comparison, has to look and act like a Saint. A Saint can't go around kicking puppies and stealing candy from babies.

The problem was never the activity to begin with, but it seems like a more simple life with fewer conflicts does make it easier to stop and think for yourself. Constant distraction makes the time go by too quickly.

That sounds more like being a Saint. They can't just avoid doing bad things; they have duties and responsibilities. Usually they even have to have a documented miracle take place.

Even if you throw out the cycle of birth and death thing, most people find themselves repeating the same kinds of things in their life. They repeat the same thoughts, emotions, and behaviors. It isn't necessarily bad, but it often is. Even when things are really good and life is working out, though, it is still a trap. It just happens to be a more comfortable trap. The first step is recognizing being stuck in a pattern. The second step is forming enough of a desire to break out of the pattern. The third step, actually breaking out, follows from the second step when the level of intensity has built up enough.

What I mean by that place in the back of your mind is that place before you are conscious of it, where your beliefs are shaped and where the impulses come from. The conscious mind is good at saying "I meant to do that" afterward and it comes up with rationalizations to explain why.

GAHHH!!!!

Isn't it possible to be enlightened about some things, but not about others?

So far as I've been led to understand, there's a big, big difference between the western "Enlightenment" of the 18th Century, and eastern ideas of "enlightenment," usually from a very long time before that.

I wonder why the same word is used in connection with both. They seem to be so different. The western Enlightenment is very much a matter of words and rules and logic and reason, while the eastern Enlightenment seems to avoid all those things.

Kind of like the East Indies and the West Indies: a long ways apart.

I went to grade school with a guy named Freddie who wound up being one of Thich Nhat Hanh's top deputies over in France (around Bordeaux) and now is some kind of Buddhist big shot here in Florida, though I haven't seen him since 1959. Thich Nhat Hanh is a really cool guy. Recommend his books highly. But I couldn't do what he does or what Freddie (assumedly) has been doing. I like McDonald's too much.

Take care!

Well, guys, since the secret is out, I will share my methods with you. All you need to do is to realize that your goal is to achieve maximum pleasure. Lots more fun. That's the secret to enlightenment. You see, I rate all experiences on a grid I have developed titled: "Personal Pleasure Principle". If the activity rates high enough I will repeat it often - thus enlightenment. If it does not rate well, it is discarded. Simple and easy. A child can achieve enlightenment. Intellectual vigor is not required - could actually be a hindrance.

For a small tithe, I will be happy to let you view the Master Model Grid of PPP. You can then personalize it the way it suits you best. For those who would like private instruction, the waiting list is long so you may want to sign up now. All that is required for such gems of wisdom is a donation to the foundation of MMGPPP.

My only wish is that all sentient beings share with me the bliss of enlightenment. Namaste.

The Clark Bar School of Satori.

I believe the traditional comeback to something like that is, "Those who know don't say, and those who say don't know."

Whoaaa!!! WHOAAAA!!! This is NOT the way enlightened people (or those who would like to be enlightened) speak to each other, so far as I'm concerned!!!

Me, I don't at all think that "enlightenment" is a joke, justifying burlesque humor and/or comebacks. Peace, people, PEACE. Mutual respect and mutual politeness!

There seems to be among many of us a subliminal or subconscious conviction that "enlightenmet" is some kind of dumb, eastern gag unworthy of serious consideration or respect. For those who've spent a lot of personal energy and effort in pursuit of this "enlightenment" beast I'd very much doubt that it's considered a joke.

And by treating it without respect we only justify the contempt with which they may look at us, parading around in our clown outfits.

Me, I don't think enlightenment is a joke. If we don't know what it is, let's just leave it alone and move on to something else. Unless we want to participate in some mutual questioning that may reveal to us what enlightment is and how to attain it. Which, of course, simply can't be done without respect.

Up to you. Cream pies in the face if you like, but then an end to this thread. Or reasonably serious consideration and an extended discussion.

Take care.

Enlightenment has been my main purpose in life since I learned of it in 1989.

Can't you tell us about it, Inedible?

I don't know that I can define it, I guess for me it is "knowing what I know", but the most enlightening book I have ever read is Dr. G. Michael Durst's (psychologist), Napkin Notes: On the Art of Living.

http://www.amazon.com/Napkin-Notes-M.../dp/0960255206

This book has to be read from the first page through, one can't skip around or one misses the thrust of the argument but from the first page it really pissed me off! I cannot tell you how many times I threw it But even today the things I learned and was forced to agree with (was unable to refute successfully so had to accept) help me out. Basically it is about accepting responsibility for one's self.

But, speaking of enlightenment, it starts with the story of a guru being sought by the protagonist and what the guru taught him.