[Wren_]

I was wondering if anyone could explain a bit their understanding of how things that happen when we are very young; and don't remember as far as we know, still impact us now. This is something that none of my T's have ever really dealt in or with preferring to focus on either thoughts now; feelings now; or things that are known and remembered clearly. Often I see people here mention things connected to when they were babies and the impact then ... just don't know or understand much related to that and trying to make some sense of things. Something happened (is happening) at the moment that is making this really relevant and bringing up questions for me ... so look for some insight ... thanks!

[rainbow_rose]

tigergirl, i'm not sure i understand what you are asking. can you elaborate or give an example or something?

[learning1]

I'm not sure I understood either. If it's something that happened when you were a baby, I guess someone else must have told you what happened. Or if your t or you are inferring guessing general things that might have happened from your parent's personalities or other context you know. So you want to know how that influences you as an adult?

I'm not sure how young you are talking about, but this has been my experience (may not be quite what you are talking about) . My earliest abuse wasn't pre-verbal; my best estimate is that I was 5. I completely repressed all memory of the incidents until I was around 30 and my 1st child had hit the age of my early abuse.

I now have pretty good recall of those events and in retrospect can clearly see how those events, while not in my conscious memory while growing up, had a deep and profound impact on me: my personality, my habits and behaviors, my emotional stability, even setting me up for further multiple situations of abuse throughout my childhood. How something I was completely unaware of managed to impact me unwittingly I still don't quite understand.

I don't know if that helps answer your question or not. Actually I know it doesn't since my answer is "I don't know", but maybe I sort of get what you are talking about. I am certain one of the wise sages around here knows the answer. I will eagerly wait with you for better insight.

[Wren_]

I'm not totally sure what I'm asking either some of what Chris responded (thanks!) and just thinking about different threads on here in the past where people have mentioned things like how being held or not held as babies is something that their T's say impacted them; or how for me I have such an intense fear of abandonment and don't know why; then of course there is that whole issue of not remembered abuse so did it happen or not and what do we remember of those first few years of our lives. Also awhile back someone mentioned transference can stem from preverbal years; but how can it impact so much when we don't knowingly remember - I'm confusing myself; no wonder it wasn't understandable

Originally Posted by tigergirl

then of course there is that whole issue of not remembered abuse so did it happen or not and what do we remember of those first few years of our lives. Also awhile back someone mentioned transference can stem from preverbal years; but how can it impact so much when we don't knowingly remember -

Not having any confirmation of the abuse must be really confusing. I really feel for those that struggle with that uncertainty. I was "fortunate" enough to have my memories confirmed by the other child who was living there and indirectly confirmed by my mother who in retrospect was able to remember all the oddities and red flags that she missed at the time (my sister was being sent to Houston for treatment for her first bout with cancer and my parents were rightfully very distracted). It's a long story.

[Freefall1974]

Hi. I will try to babble about this for a minute but I can't promise it will help. When I started therapy 2 years ago I had just ended a significant relationship, had trouble handling my emotions and got depressed. Saw the T, blah, blah, talked about harmful thoughts or ideas...yes..always..doesn't everyone? Apparently not, I learned. After more time it all came down to FAMILY OF ORIGIN issues. UGH!! I barely remembered anything about my FOO. But my T knew all about how to tap into that. So slowly and carefully she worked and the memories came up. Shame was dealt with. I am much less reactive. I am still on meds but I am no rush to stop them. I still have memories pop up and I have to stop and think, "did that really happen"? It did.
Hope that helps a tad. ( It helped me)

[rainbow8]

I feel frustrated because I don't know why I have such fears of my T leaving because I don't remember anything like that happening during my childhood. So, both my T and I have been thinking more and more that it's preverbal, and that's why I can't remember. She thinks it could be when I was in an incubator for a couple of weeks because I was a preemie. I know by today's standards that's not a long time, but back then holding babies in hospitals was not a standard policy, from what I've read. So it could be that I cried and cried but my mother wasn't there and no one took care of me.

That's the only logical reason for my feelings today unless something happened when I was a child and I don't remember. It makes more sense that it was when I was an infant so yes, it does impact me today. My brother is 5 years older than I am and he does not remember any times our Mom or Dad left us, or anything traumatic happening to me.

[BonnieJean]

we need Hankster to weigh in on this once she's feeling better...

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by BonnieJean

we need Hankster to weigh in on this once she's feeling better...

you're sweet, bonnie! I am noticing a big difference in the number of active brain cells since I started feeling better!

my T was supposed to forward me a paper by John Bowlby, the father of attachment, so to speak, on Freud's theory of knowing the unknowable or something like that, i'll see if I can locate it. I have been thinking about this post. does anybody remember the attachment videos somebody had last year? I didn't see them, but people here said they really got what they meant by the different kinds of attachment? you're really kind of retrofitting what you DO know about yourself, backwards into a definition.

Sometimes I think you have to go by later memories. I was in my teens, and my godmother came over with her kids, one of whom had ADHD. He got out pots and pans and started banging. I thought, a) i'm jealous, I never got to do that! and b) mom is gonna kill him. But of course she wouldn't kill a guest, just threaten her own kid, right? So that's how I figured out I never played loud with the pots and pans - not more than once, anyway. That jealousy was ridiculous, I was waaaay past the age of wanting to play with pots and pans. But the feeling was still there, just like unresolved feelings still show up in therapy. I mean, that was over 40 years ago now, and it's still a clear memory. I think I half have that never forgetting thing.

I think you might be referring to being 'held in mind' rather than just 'held'... if you Google it there a couple helpful articles (PDFs I think so I don't think a link to them would work) but it's basically about attachment to mum as a baby - preverbal communication, 'mind reading', existing in another's mind... like hankster said there's a thread somewhere with a video that showed a clear example of this. How mum paid attention to you (or not) as a baby affects how you communicate with and attach to others as an adult.. It's not that we remember these things, it's that we can suppose them based on our behavior now... I think..!

Hankster - I too have figured I harbour a kind of jealousy and resentment for noisy children - because I was never allowed to be one! I just thought I must 'hate' kids... But no, it's just the noisy ones that are having fun that bug me... how dare they have fun?!

[unaluna]

some girl- thanks. an look at how freaked out you got over your bath music last week. it was like where did that come from. huh so this is why I always end up at the noisy table at work lunches - making up for lost play time!

My therapist is big on the pre-verbal stuff. If our earliest feelings/experiences go un processed for various reasons, unfit mother, depressed mother, etc. Then they continue to operate within us at this earliest un processed level.

[elliemay]

Originally Posted by tigergirl

I was wondering if anyone could explain a bit their understanding of how things that happen when we are very young; and don't remember as far as we know, still impact us now. This is something that none of my T's have ever really dealt in or with preferring to focus on either thoughts now; feelings now; or things that are known and remembered clearly. Often I see people here mention things connected to when they were babies and the impact then ... just don't know or understand much related to that and trying to make some sense of things. Something happened (is happening) at the moment that is making this really relevant and bringing up questions for me ... so look for some insight ... thanks!

I don't know, and don't really care what all the "theories" say, but, IMHO

I really do think some of our fundamental neural pathways, brain functions, and methods of coping are laid down at very very early stages of life - long before our ability to retrieve or form those memories are developed.

I think it is entirely reasonable then, that the basics of "us" and our instinctual response to things can predate our ability to remember them.

As we grow, that fundamental pattern can be tweaked and modified, perhaps even broken outright I don't know, but it's there.

So we carry, whether we know it or not, the lasting imprint of our most impressionable, but least remembered time.

I think this is how the distant distant past can extend into the now.

However, humans can rise above pure instinct. We do have an intellect and a reason that can, in most cases, supercede instinct.

Those pre-wired patterns can be identified and the ability to act on them can be controlled.

What happened early in life need not be a life sentence at all.

[Towanda]

Elliemay, great post! You stated very clearly what I am learning in neuropsych this semester. It's called associative learning and it actually starts in the womb. The primitive brain forms neurons and synapses, and the environment outside the womb impacts the fetus inside. Loud music, fighting between mom and partner, physical violence - all are "learned" responses by the fetus and impact later responses by the baby, making him/her more fearful, fitful, etc. Conversely, a warm, nurturing environment prebirth (soothing music, less stress hormones like cortisol released due to loving relationship between mom and partner) give rise to a baby that is easier soothed and cries less. And, easier baby sometimes means easier less stressful relationship with mom which baby absorbs. And that cycle goes on and on into toddler-hood, childhood, etc. as the person grows and forms her own memories, behaviors, and individual characteristics and way of coping with life. And we carry this with us for a lifetime, either successfully or in some cases, changing as the need arises.

Whew! Hope that all makes sense