I am really upset and confused right now, I mean I was just starting to real feel comfortable with who I am for the first time in my life. I was just accept my sexuality when t threw a spanner in the works on our last session. T said maybe you are not gay button, it appears to me that you crave closeness around other female's because you were neglected by your mother, she said based on evidence she has compiled from observations of gay female clients they all have the same problem, they were severely neglected by their mom's. She said there have been no studies on this it was just her own theory.

Now I am more confused than ever, I feel like my identity has been taken away again. T said because I kept saying if I could be any other way I would that this is because I still doubt myself! She said that once a gay comes out they start accept themselves but I can't and I refuse to accept myself because she thinks I am lying to myself!

Why did she have to wait until the LAST session to impose that theroy on you? Ugh.

hey, button30 - your T's "theory" sounds suspect because it is NOT based on science. please find another T; one who uses sound scientific principles to diagnose and treat their patients.

based on evidence she has compiled from observations of gay female clients they all have the same problem, they were severely neglected by their mom's. She said there have been no studies on this it was just her own theory.

What training does your T have in critical thinking and applying scientific methods? That's a serious question. It looks like a complete b*ll*cks thing to say, if you pardon my saying so - I can poke three huge holes in that theory without even trying: 1) the clients who come to see her have psychological issues or they would not be going to therapy, and being neglected by your mother is a pretty common and important cause for psychological issues; 2) she made no mention of non-gay female clients, which makes the statement valueless; and 3) it's completely unscientific to formulate a general theory from a few isolated cases, and conversely it's a very basic principle that while you can sometimes say general things about a whole population ("Finnish people have a tendency toward introversion"), it is not valid to make specific statements about an individual based on those general things ("you're Finnish, so you must be an introvert").

Your T does not seem like a bad T in general, and I'm sure she's a good person, but this particular thing was ill-advised and my opinion is that you don't need to pay any attention to her "maybe you crave closeness because you were neglected" statement if it doesn't ring true for you.

Originally Posted by TryinToGetBy

Why did she have to wait until the LAST session to impose that theroy on you? Ugh.

Exactly, that's why I am so confused and depressed now, maybe because she only realised it herself!

Originally Posted by unhappyguy

hey, button30 - your T's "theory" sounds suspect because it is NOT based on science. please find another T; one who uses sound scientific principles to diagnose and treat their patients.

She is a good t she probably thought it would help me but it doesn't!

It is not based on science and she made it clear that there have been no scientific studies based on it, it was just her observations

Originally Posted by Apteryx

What training does your T have in critical thinking and applying scientific methods? That's a serious question. It looks like a complete b*ll*cks thing to say, if you pardon my saying so - I can poke three huge holes in that theory without even trying: 1) the clients who come to see her have psychological issues or they would not be going to therapy, and being neglected by your mother is a pretty common and important cause for psychological issues; 2) she made no mention of non-gay female clients, which makes the statement valueless; and 3) it's completely unscientific to formulate a general theory from a few isolated cases, and conversely it's a very basic principle that while you can sometimes say general things about a whole population ("Finnish people have a tendency toward introversion"), it is not valid to make specific statements about an individual based on those general things ("you're Finnish, so you must be an introvert").

Your T does not seem like a bad T in general, and I'm sure she's a good person, but this particular thing was ill-advised and my opinion is that you don't need to pay any attention to her "maybe you crave closeness because you were neglected" statement if it doesn't ring true for you.

Thank you, what you said makes perfect sense but I can't help think that maybe she is onto something here! She would not have said it to upset me or confuse me, she genuinely has thought about this a lot and thinks I am not gay!

[EeyoreSmile]

Originally Posted by button30

I am really upset and confused right now, I mean I was just starting to real feel comfortable with who I am for the first time in my life. I was just accept my sexuality when t threw a spanner in the works on our last session. T said maybe you are not gay button, it appears to me that you crave closeness around other female's because you were neglected by your mother, she said based on evidence she has compiled from observations of gay female clients they all have the same problem, they were severely neglected by their mom's. She said there have been no studies on this it was just her own theory.

Now I am more confused than ever, I feel like my identity has been taken away again. T said because I kept saying if I could be any other way I would that this is because I still doubt myself! She said that once a gay comes out they start accept themselves but I can't and I refuse to accept myself because she thinks I am lying to myself!

Okay, I'm gay. I am out and proud NOW, but it didn't happen over night. Coming out and being honest with yourself is only the FIRST step. Once I was out.. I still thought about going back in. I didn't want to tell my whole family and all of my friends, and be seen differently because having had tons of boyfriends, me coming out was a shock to just about everyone.. and I just wanted to live a "regular" life. But with years of working on myself and support from some gay friends, I became confident in who i am and have fully accepted my identity as a lesbian. So that 2nd part is just ridiculous.. It takes some people decades to fully accept that identity (look at people who are married for 40 years then come out as gay)

The first part is also ridiculous. I won't combat that with anecdotal evidence of my own.. but I will say... me being gay is not just closeness to women.. it's wanting to sleep with them too LOL And also having no desire to sleep with men... at all. And I didn't realize this until I fell in love.. with a girl.. and my whole world turned upside down. Coming out is hard.. if you need to chat.. I'm here! :-)

[elliemay]

I think sexuality is, like most human traits, a continuum. I'm not sure anyone is all heterosexual or all homosexual. You, like most, may be a little of both.

It may be more about accepting where you are, not as all one or the other, but YOU.

In fact, I think if you say "I'm all gay" then you may miss out on a lot of love for someone, whether it be a man or a woman. Yes, you will lose your identification with one particular group. I know that identification can be very comforting, but it may not be you.

Sometimes I think it is about accepting who we actually are, for whatever reason it may be that way.

It's all good because it's you.

This is something I have always struggled with, accepting myself and my sexuality. I told t, I would like to get married and have children and live a normal life, she suggested I could have children by meeting a man! Hid just wants me to do whatever will make me happy and I think that would make me instantly happy but all the issues would be. Be hiding waiting to come out stronger than before! I have been in love with a woman for the last seven years, we broke up and I still love her deeply! I have never felt anything remotely like this with a male! But t thinks it could be possible if I gave it a chance

Eyeore smile (()hugs)) I am happy you are happy with who you are! You are right it takes years and years , I gave a long way to go yet!

[mixedup_emotions]

I see opportunities on a number of levels with this.

It's an opportunity for you to take something in that may or may not fit for you and be willing to explore it. Your reaction is important.

It's an opportunity for you to decide whether or not it fits, and if it doesn't fit - then you can set a limit with T. If you hesitate to do this, that's also important!

If you look beyond the content, there's much learning that can occur with the process.

[Anne2.0]

Well, I am someone who thought I was gay in my 20's and early 30's-- but, honestly, my self label was based on the fact that I was in relationships with women. It was easy where I worked and lived to be out and so I didn't really struggle with self acceptance or even social acceptance. And I don't have any real insight into whether your T's theory makes sense, although I have heard it floated before by people who are politically not haters. I think it can apply to some women and I don't see any harm with thinking and exploring for yourself (not just buying it because T said it) whether this might fit. Also, not many of the gay women I have known said they wished they could marry a man and have kids-- I understand that that could be said in the context of a desire to be what our society calls "normal"-- but as you know, gay women get married and have babies all the time and their families are as normal as anyone else's. But if you have a true desire for a heterosexual life that doesn't have anything to do with just being "normal", maybe your desire actually is a desire for a relationship with a man. Maybe it is something you could benefit from being open to rather than closing off.

For myself, I didn't go out looking for a man to marry. It just happened, but it did happen after I realized that I wanted to have a child. I was thinking about the logistics of having a child as a single woman and then I met the man I married, and have been with for almost two decades now. For me as I look back, I have been in relationships with individuals and the particular genital configuration has never been the real issue with me. I suppose that makes me bi if I had to put a label on it. I do correct people if they try to label me heterosexual. I still find women beautiful and sexy and my guess would be that if something happened to my marriage, I'd probably end up with a woman afterwards.

I think that for some people, sexuality may be something very stable and certain; for others, not so much so. I think that there might be usefulness in considering what your T said-- I don't mean go out and screw men for fun-- although I suppose that there's nothing wrong with that. I'd worry less about what you call yourself and work more towards being open to relationships of all sorts, but starting with friendships.

Your familiar with my story... I have identified gay since I was 20, suspected since 13 or so and I'm 39 now. I've dated both , was even engaged to be married to a man at one time. I'm with Anne... leave yourself open for whatever, in the end T cant tell you what or who you are. Sexuality is a spectrum. PM me if you ever wanna chat.

I'm completely on board the "sexuality is a spectrum" boat. And nobody can tell anybody else what their sexual orientation is.

[Eliza Jane]

Originally Posted by button30

This is something I have always struggled with, accepting myself and my sexuality. I told t, I would like to get married and have children and live a normal life, she suggested I could have children by meeting a man! Hid just wants me to do whatever will make me happy and I think that would make me instantly happy but all the issues would be. Be hiding waiting to come out stronger than before! I have been in love with a woman for the last seven years, we broke up and I still love her deeply! I have never felt anything remotely like this with a male! But t thinks it could be possible if I gave it a chance

The bolded parts make me concerned that T has an agenda other than your well-being. How is it appropriate to tell a woman who has been in love with a woman for 7 years and has never felt anything like that for a male that the answer to her problems is to meet a man and have a baby?

Best,
EJ

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by button30

I am really upset and confused right now, I mean I was just starting to real feel comfortable with who I am for the first time in my life. I was just accept my sexuality when t threw a spanner in the works on our last session. T said maybe you are not gay button, it appears to me that you crave closeness around other female's because you were neglected by your mother, she said based on evidence she has compiled from observations of gay female clients they all have the same problem, they were severely neglected by their mom's. She said there have been no studies on this it was just her own theory.

Button, while I can't comment on whether or you are gay (only you know that), I can tell you, with certainty, that your T's "theory" is a bunch of baloney. In fact, it's incredibly homophobic baloney. This falls into my personal area of research, which I teach at my University, and anyone in my field, at any University you go to, would be absolutely horrified to hear a T spouting this kind of stuff. Sadly, many Ts do not have sufficient training in sexuality studies and end up doing more harm than good with their LGBT clients.

Anyway, let's look at her "theory." In order for her theory to be true, we would have to assume that all women are "naturally" born heterosexual-- and then, if they are neglected by their mothers-- all or some of them "turn" gay-- and since heterosexuality is the assumed natural state-- then perhaps they can "turn" back. Of course, there are about 20 things wrong with that. First of all, heterosexuality is not "natural" or universal or the default. Her theory assumes that, if everything were to go "right" in parenting, then no one would be homosexual. Of course, that also is not true. And what about those women who were neglected by their mothers who turned out heterosexual? More to the point, her theory assumes that parenting is what "causes" homosexuality. By her theory, if a child comes out to her parents, then the parents would actually be correct in saying "oh my goodness, where did I go wrong?" But, of course, parenting does not "cause" homosexuality. Furthermore, if we are looking for a "cause" (and then, presumably, a "cure") we are taking the homophobic position that homosexuality is "bad" and should be eliminated, if possible. Of course, this is not the case, either. To assume that any one factor (i.e. parenting) is responsible for something as complex as sexual identity negelects the million other things that go into shaping our sexuality (both biological and social). Moreover, your T's theory is completely ahistorical. As we know, the idea that we HAVE a sexual identity is a modern construct which has only existed since the 1870s. Prior to the 1870s, sexuality was viewed as a behavior-- something we DO-- not something we ARE. The sex/gender of our partners was not a component of our identity; this idea changed as our culture changed. So, to say that either homosexuality or heterosexuality are "natural" could never be the case because these terms (and the ideas behind them) are something we created, socially, in the last 140 years. Prior to that, there was no stigmatized category "homosexuality" because our culture had not created it-- and, "heterosexuality" as the "natural" category we think it is-- did not exist as such until it rose up as the opposing term to homosexuality). Anyway, my point is that there is no way to view our sexuality outside of the culture in which we are enmeshed. And, because we now live in a homophobic culture, that homophobia shapes many of the ideas that people have about sexuality-- they try to come up with theories to prove their own worldview, no matter that most of these theories are innacurate. Finally, your is also doing something that is very, very common: she is minimizing, infantalizing, and de-sexualizing female desire. To assume that female sexual desire for another woman must REALLY be about craving "maternal closeness" is to discount the sexual nature of that desire. It gets onto the slippery slope of thinking that a woman's desire for another woman (i.e. without the man and his penis and "natural" heterosexuality) is really about closeness and if sex comes into the mix, then it's really just transference from an innate desire for maternal comfort (because of early neglect). Those kinds of ideas are straight from Freud's "Three Essays on Sexuality" which have since been debunked by women theorists and psychologists ten times over. (Freud sucked at theorizing about women and about what he called "sexual inversion!") Anyway, I apologize if I've gone on a bit of a tangent here but, as someone who teaches and researches this stuff, it really makes me angry when professionals who have NOT done any research spout off these half-baked theories without even recognizing that they are spewing homophobia. (Oh, and there HAVE been clinical studies on "does being neglected by your mom make you a lesbian and does being neglected by your dad make you a gay man; the research said NO!)

Pbutton. I guess your going to continue to explore this with your T? There is a little truth in what she says. I too was confused. I know now that I was looking for a Maternal figure because of my early experiences. I hope you are able to find your truth.

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by Eliza Jane

The bolded parts make me concerned that T has an agenda other than your well-being. How is it appropriate to tell a woman who has been in love with a woman for 7 years and has never felt anything like that for a male that the answer to her problems is to meet a man and have a baby?

Best,
EJ

I couldn't agree more with Eliza Jane. If your T is suggesting that you are not gay (or bisexual), then she is saying that (1) you have been confused/mistaken for all of these years and (2) that you were never in love with or sexually atracted to your partner of 7 years. Doesn't that discount all of the feelings you had/have for her? How do you feel about that?

It also suggests that, eventhough you say you've never felt sexual attraction for a man, that if you work at it, you could "fix" this thing that is "wrong" with you and begin to feel that attraction, because that would be "better." Not only is that homophobic, it also suggests that it's possible to make someone "un-gay"-- which we all know, from those "xgay" ministry programs, is not true.

If you reported that you DID have attractions towards men that you had never explored, and you felt sexually fluid or bisexual, then I think that would be a great thing to explore. As many others have mentioned, many people (though not all!) are attracted to people of many different sexes and genders. But that is something only you can know. I say pay attention to how you feel and notice who you feel attraction towards. No one else can ever TELL you they think you are straight or gay. If anyone tries, then I would suggest that they have an agenda about which way they THINK you should be. But since neither option is better or more natural, there should be no agenda out there.... Well, if someone is attracted to you and wants you to feel the same way back, then maybe we can forgive that agenda... but short of that...

If one is actively in a lesbian relationship strictly due to maternal feelings wouldn't there be an issue in the actual sexual portion of the relationship? I mean given the choice to engage sexually with a man or woman ( just the act - one night stand type situation ), if you had to choose, which one would you choose? That question may help.

Originally Posted by scorpiosis37

[marvellous argumentation snipped]

Brilliant posting, scorpiosis. Thank you!

This is the T who saw you for all of six sessions?

How much can a T possibly really know about you in such a short space of time? In my experience, **** all. I think it's irresponsible for Ts to make such comments, seems to me to be more about their own agenda and beliefs.

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

Well, I am someone who thought I was gay in my 20's and early 30's-- but, honestly, my self label was based on the fact that I was in relationships with women. It was easy where I worked and lived to be out and so I didn't really struggle with self acceptance or even social acceptance. And I don't have any real insight into whether your T's theory makes sense, although I have heard it floated before by people who are politically not haters. I think it can apply to some women and I don't see any harm with thinking and exploring for yourself (not just buying it because T said it) whether this might fit. Also, not many of the gay women I have known said they wished they could marry a man and have kids-- I understand that that could be said in the context of a desire to be what our society calls "normal"-- but as you know, gay women get married and have babies all the time and their families are as normal as anyone else's. But if you have a true desire for a heterosexual life that doesn't have anything to do with just being "normal", maybe your desire actually is a desire for a relationship with a man. Maybe it is something you could benefit from being open to rather than closing off.

For myself, I didn't go out looking for a man to marry. It just happened, but it did happen after I realized that I wanted to have a child. I was thinking about the logistics of having a child as a single woman and then I met the man I married, and have been with for almost two decades now. For me as I look back, I have been in relationships with individuals and the particular genital configuration has never been the real issue with me. I suppose that makes me bi if I had to put a label on it. I do correct people if they try to label me heterosexual. I still find women beautiful and sexy and my guess would be that if something happened to my marriage, I'd probably end up with a woman afterwards.

I think that for some people, sexuality may be something very stable and certain; for others, not so much so. I think that there might be usefulness in considering what your T said-- I don't mean go out and screw men for fun-- although I suppose that there's nothing wrong with that. I'd worry less about what you call yourself and work more towards being open to relationships of all sorts, but starting with friendships.

I think what appeals to me personally about hetrosexual relationships is the longitivity of them. Gay women break up constantly and they are on their own alot. I like the idea of getting married and living together and supporting each other through everything. This can happen with males or females I suppose. I told t that I get on very well with males but only as friends, she asked what happened when I was on my date with a man a month ago, I told her he went to kiss me at the end of the night and I pulled away.
She asked why? what was happening in my head, I told her I couldn't do it. T said isn't it great though that he wanted to kiss you, you are beautiful button, you should start to realise that. I could not kiss him or any man I don't think. I envy you Anne because you can have the best of both worlds

Originally Posted by Eliza Jane

The bolded parts make me concerned that T has an agenda other than your well-being. How is it appropriate to tell a woman who has been in love with a woman for 7 years and has never felt anything like that for a male that the answer to her problems is to meet a man and have a baby?

Best,
EJ

What kind of personal agenda would my T have?
It was obvious the other day that she hasn't had much experience with gay people. I have no issues with that. T wasn't familiar with any phrases or any gay lingo, she asked what we called her type, ones that were married and not gay, I said straight people lol

Originally Posted by scorpiosis37

Button, while I can't comment on whether or you are gay (only you know that), I can tell you, with certainty, that your T's "theory" is a bunch of baloney. In fact, it's incredibly homophobic baloney. This falls into my personal area of research, which I teach at my University, and anyone in my field, at any University you go to, would be absolutely horrified to hear a T spouting this kind of stuff. Sadly, many Ts do not have sufficient training in sexuality studies and end up doing more harm than good with their LGBT clients.

Anyway, let's look at her "theory." In order for her theory to be true, we would have to assume that all women are "naturally" born heterosexual-- and then, if they are neglected by their mothers-- all or some of them "turn" gay-- and since heterosexuality is the assumed natural state-- then perhaps they can "turn" back. Of course, there are about 20 things wrong with that. First of all, heterosexuality is not "natural" or universal or the default. Her theory assumes that, if everything were to go "right" in parenting, then no one would be homosexual. Of course, that also is not true. And what about those women who were neglected by their mothers who turned out heterosexual? More to the point, her theory assumes that parenting is what "causes" homosexuality. By her theory, if a child comes out to her parents, then the parents would actually be correct in saying "oh my goodness, where did I go wrong?" But, of course, parenting does not "cause" homosexuality. Furthermore, if we are looking for a "cause" (and then, presumably, a "cure") we are taking the homophobic position that homosexuality is "bad" and should be eliminated, if possible. Of course, this is not the case, either. To assume that any one factor (i.e. parenting) is responsible for something as complex as sexual identity negelects the million other things that go into shaping our sexuality (both biological and social). Moreover, your T's theory is completely ahistorical. As we know, the idea that we HAVE a sexual identity is a modern construct which has only existed since the 1870s. Prior to the 1870s, sexuality was viewed as a behavior-- something we DO-- not something we ARE. The sex/gender of our partners was not a component of our identity; this idea changed as our culture changed. So, to say that either homosexuality or heterosexuality are "natural" could never be the case because these terms (and the ideas behind them) are something we created, socially, in the last 140 years. Prior to that, there was no stigmatized category "homosexuality" because our culture had not created it-- and, "heterosexuality" as the "natural" category we think it is-- did not exist as such until it rose up as the opposing term to homosexuality). Anyway, my point is that there is no way to view our sexuality outside of the culture in which we are enmeshed. And, because we now live in a homophobic culture, that homophobia shapes many of the ideas that people have about sexuality-- they try to come up with theories to prove their own worldview, no matter that most of these theories are innacurate. Finally, your is also doing something that is very, very common: she is minimizing, infantalizing, and de-sexualizing female desire. To assume that female sexual desire for another woman must REALLY be about craving "maternal closeness" is to discount the sexual nature of that desire. It gets onto the slippery slope of thinking that a woman's desire for another woman (i.e. without the man and his penis and "natural" heterosexuality) is really about closeness and if sex comes into the mix, then it's really just transference from an innate desire for maternal comfort (because of early neglect). Those kinds of ideas are straight from Freud's "Three Essays on Sexuality" which have since been debunked by women theorists and psychologists ten times over. (Freud sucked at theorizing about women and about what he called "sexual inversion!") Anyway, I apologize if I've gone on a bit of a tangent here but, as someone who teaches and researches this stuff, it really makes me angry when professionals who have NOT done any research spout off these half-baked theories without even recognizing that they are spewing homophobia. (Oh, and there HAVE been clinical studies on "does being neglected by your mom make you a lesbian and does being neglected by your dad make you a gay man; the research said NO!)

THat is really interesting Scorposis, do researchers have any idea what shapes our sexuality the most- is it a choice or is it genetics or surroundings?

I honestly don't thinkT meant any harm by it but she did come across as not very accepting of gay people by accepting I mean, she deoan't really know much about it. I would have thought that this would be an area most Ts would have to study in college considering that we as gay people are most at risk of suicide and depression.
It did kind of hurt when she said it because I know what I felt for my ex was real and still is, otherwise it wouldn't hurt so much everythime I think of her- its like a hole in my heart.