Can this be considered ....?????

Can this be considered sexual assault, here is the scenario:

female in her forties, male in late sixties never before met except for this cookout.

male flirts with female , female flirts back, both drinking, female not heavily just 2 drinks. male thanks female for making him feel young.

later that evening:

male hugs female and kisses her on the mouth, and touches her backside, female is caught off guard, but does not say anything as to not hurt his feelings male is pretty old, female sees no harm.

cookout is over, everyone leaves but him, male enters living room to hang out with female and owner of the house and females friend.

female now is feeling pretty grossed out and shame and guilt( dealing with csa in therapy) female now goes to bathroom and throws up, feels better but sits down in corner of bathroom floor feeling like a lost kid.

minutes later, male enters the bathroom without knocking, locks door, sees female on floor asks if female is ok, female responds not really but she will be. male crouches down and starts touching female everywhere and kissing female on her neck and lips.

female did not say stop or no, female concentrated on an object to numb herself, male left after a couple of minutes.

female felt dirty and disgusting.

I would count that yes, because "female concentrated on an object to numb herself, male left after a couple of minutes. female felt dirty and disgusting." is all I needed to hear to know it was not consensual.

Just because she didn't say no doesn't mean she said yes.

((((((hug)))))))

Tell someone. Don't let it eat at (I'm assuming) you. It's not your fault, that man needs to learn that when someone is not doing well DOES NOT mean open season. Your not disgusting or dirty, he is.

if this is told to a therapist, I would hope it would be confidential, do you think? I mean these are adults here.

It will most definitely be confidential. A T can't break confidentiality unless you say you are going to kill yourself or hurt/kill someone else (in which they have to move to keep you or that person safe) or there is child abuse involved (in which they must notify CPS).

They need your full permission if they want to carry out any action about this.

thank you for your response it really means alot to me. I know you are going through stuff as well. I will keep you updated, I am going to see my t in a little while.

Awesome. ((safehugs)) Stay strong and stay safe. Best of luck at T.

I don't know sweep--I know how triggering the whole situation is to you, but it sounds like you communicated to this guy in various ways that it was consensual. If you were incapacitated from drinking or had said no/pushed him away at some point then, yes, it would be assault.

But to be fair to the guys, we need to let them know when it isn't ok. If you follow through with a kiss without pushing back or saying no--they are left with the idea it is ok.

Maybe you feel guilty/shame for what happened? By framing it as assault, you put all of the responsibility on the other person.

I hope you can work through it! Confusing past abuse with current events won't help you.

I just want to say that I was abused as an adult and told my therapist and he did want to break confidentiality and tell my husband. He refused to see me anymore because I wouldn't bring my husband in and tell him. I don't think most therapists would do this though. What my old therapist did was unethical. But it can happen that they want to break confidentiality over something like this.

I think it is a really good idea to take this to your T. She can help you find the strength to say no and to find ways out of situations where you are uncomfortable.

As I read it, the kiss was earlier in the night, and although she did not say anything she was uncomfortable with it. Even if she hadn't been, I've always been taught that a person as a right to change their mind. Hell, I've had to change my mind with consenting sex half way though, and if they don't stop after I push away and make it clear it's unwanted (even not verbally) then I would count that as assault or harassment. Sometimes a person doesn't have the strength to say no, which is why I think you should always ask not assume, and if someone is not doing well (which she did say) then don't do anything and help that person out.

Perhaps your right, it's not assault. But it is still considered harassment, and that still hurts, is important to be dealt with, and not her fault.

And please don't think I'm saying this against men. I'm saying this about anyone who's in a situation like that.

Absolutely someone has a right to change their mind, but it needs to be communicated somehow.

That's not to say that this guy wasn't a creep (or, he could just be a lonely old guy.)

Didn't mean to imply that you are against men. I just remember that Sweepy was in a similar situation involving substances and unwanted advances. As an adult, we need to communicate our needs clearly.

This guy did show bad judgement by trying to make advances again when she was clearly upset.

But Sweepy, in a different post about this, you indicated you kind of responded to the kiss. Then you went back inside and cuddled with the guy on the couch, right? You said you were laying your head on his shoulder. If you respond to the kiss, and then cuddle with the guy, and then just don't respond or say anything when he comes in and starts kissing you and touching you again, I really cannot see that as a sexual assault or any form of abuse coming from the guy's side of this. The guy is not a mind reader to know that you changed your mind or felt horrible in between the kiss and cuddling and the time in the bathroom.

I do see how triggering this is for you though, and I really hope you can discuss it with your therapist.

lol, alright. sorry for the confusion growlycat! I think I'm a bit more defensive today than I need to be. My bad!

I see your point though. Thanks for bringing it up.

I think a lot of guys think kissing, holding, and fondling are forms of comfort; the way they are made, sex can be "comforting" to them, make them feel better and not necessarily have any emotional baggage. Women are quite a bit more complicated. I think since you did not show any surprise or anger at his coming into the bathroom (I would have locked the door) and he did ask you were you all right (and you replied you would be) if you looked physically ill he may have only thought you were physically unwell, not known about the emotional difficulties you were struggling with.

I would just call it a very unpleasant experience you did not want to repeat and continue work on my past abuse history to see if I could learn to cope better when sexual experiences come up in the present to encourage or discourage them based on what you want in the present from that experience instead of past issues getting mixed up with them.

That's just ********. Only in a predators mind is a women sitting in the fetal position in the corner of a bathroom crying fair game for sexual activity. He was wrong and was taking advantage of someone who was vulnerable and wounded. And it was an assault, there is no way he could have believed that was consensual or an okay time to begin fondling someone. Regardless of what happened prior in the day, in that moment he assaulted her.

Talk about it to your T, good luck!

I didn't interpret this as crying in the fetal position. I actually pictured it as kind of being somehwhat blankly seated in the corner. Of course, I see it that way because it's how I'd have probably reacted. I think a lot of us are (understandably) reading our own stuff into this thread since it is such a delicate issue.

pbutton's right. I know I have been reading my own interpretation into this. That being said, I'm really glad sweepy said something, and brought it up. It's an interesting look, for me at least, as to where the line starts and ends depending on peoples prior experiences and personal history, as well as how something can be worded.

Regardless, hugs to sweepy and to all of you who relate

No, make is no mind reader, unless the female says so he cannot know how she feels about it. Not saying it wasn't traumatic enough for you just that it legally and morally isn't an assault. He might felt stg not right so he left?

Yes, no matter what, I understand the HORRIBLE feelings that this could bring up and I am very sorry that this happened, sweepy.

Yea, may have over exagerated that part, but never the less, it was a douchey thing to do and was a form of assault or harassment, regardless of your pass sexual abuse.
I've never been sexaully abused, but if some girl i was talking up came up to me sitting in the bathroom corner staring blankly at nothing and she starts rubbing my penis I'd feel extremely uncomfortable and used. Especially if she locked the door behind her.

What he should have done is sat next to you and comforted you, not sexualized you. That was his wrong, not yours.

Douche-y does NOT equal sexual assault. The door was apparently not locked. If a person is staring blankly right when you walk in, but then answers you, you don't necessarily know that she is totally out of it. He did stop and leave when she went numb and shut down. I just don't think we can leap to the conclusion that this is a sexual assault given the apparently (from an outside perspective) consensual nature of the contact throughout the evening.

I do get this is upsetting and there are reasons why the OP might shut down and not say no. I'm just saying from an outside perspective, looking only at the parties' actions during the party, no way is this a sexual assault.

He knew moments ago I had thrown up and was not feeling well I was crouched on the floor in the corner of the bathroom feeling dazed, yes I did say I would feel better, but at the moment I was in a daze. I guess it was my fault, im a grown up and I will take responsability.

Actually, that is where you are wrong. It doesn't matter what somebody did before the fact. She could have grabbed his penis at the dining room table, but in that moment when she was sitting in the corner, he assaulted, harassed, took advantage of, whatever you want to call it, it was not okay, and the idea that it is somehow okay is part of the ridiculous rape culture in this countries in which men feel they can do whatever they want as long as the girl/ women isn't screaming no at the top of their lungs.

From a legal perspective, it DOES matter. They had consensual contact, he came in and she said nothing when he kissed her, when he took it further, she still said nothing. Sexual assault (which legally is termed a sexual battery) is a specific intent crime. Unless he knew or had reason to know she did not consent, he would be unable to form the specific intent necessary to commit a sexual battery.

But are we talking about the legal aspect of this? Is she pressing charges? Is she asking us for legal advice? All those answers seem to be a big NO.