[someone321]

I'm curious if you argue with your T during sessions or do you just kindly exchange opinions? Today I made my T crazy I wasn't impolite or aggressive (I guess the worst think which I've told him was that I do not feel his empathy) but we were just arguing the whole time, he was raising his voice a lot and he said e.g., "could you please, before you say something, think?" I loved that, especially as he always asks me to say things spontaneously and to not think about them....

Is it common to feel great about arguing with a T? I guess the worst thing is that eventually I felt very safe at the session but I felt the safest when he was almost yelling at me, it was like "oh, he is angry, so he actually feels something - does it mean that he cares?! " I know, probably it's not the healthiest feeling ...

[unlockingsanity]

Originally Posted by someone321

I'm curious if you argue with your T during sessions or do you just kindly exchange opinions? Today I made my T crazy I wasn't impolite or aggressive (I guess the worst think which I've told him was that I do not feel his empathy) but we were just arguing the whole time, he was raising his voice a lot and he said e.g., "could you please, before you say something, think?" I loved that, especially as he always asks me to say things spontaneously and to not think about them....

Is it common to feel great about arguing with a T? I guess the worst thing is that eventually I felt very safe at the session but I felt the safest when he was almost yelling at me, it was like "oh, he is angry, so he actually feels something - does it mean that he cares?! " I know, probably it's not the healthiest feeling ...

Argue? No. Disagree? Yes. We're respectful though. Even if there is frustration, the conversation doesn't get mean or cold...there is still a lightness to it, if that makes sense.

[thestarsaregone]

I think sometimes my T and I get a little heated during our sessions. Neither of us are angry or rude, but I think sometimes if we're in the middle of doing some good work, we both are passionate about what we're talking about. At least we're on the same emotional wavelength when it happens!

[CantExplain]

I argued with Madame T almost all the time.

PS
And often I enjoyed it. I felt (perhaps wrongly) that I needed a sparring partner, and Madame T was it.

[Elektra_]

lol my t has no empathy either so what u saying makes quite sense to me. i just dont bother arguing. i just suck it up and do this face that tells her what i think. although i always come out of there mad and sometimes im aggressive, she never showed she cared about that fact either. what she did other session i had was to threaten me to end the session.

Argue? Absolutely not. We do disagree and talk about and through those issues civilly. I honestly suspect if I was using argument as a way to feel cared about or safe, my T would catch on to that very quickly and confront me about that as that is a communication style that would probably indicates something about my upbringing/past, etc.

Have you considered actually telling your T about how you used argument in order to feel safe with him? It might be an interesting and important conversation.

[someone321]

Thank you. Maybe I should be more precised, we didn't really fight but I wouldn't call it a discussion neither... It was pretty clear that we both were angry at each other, we had different opinions and we both were sure that we're right But of course we both were not neither rude nor aggresive...

1914sierra: thank you for your comment, yes I think I will bring it up for the next session - I mean this that I felt very safe/calm when he was angry at me. However, from my not very objective point of view, rather he argued with me than me with him... I came to the session empty and disappointed and I told him that I am not sure if I can trust him anymore and that on one hand I want him badly to convince me that I can trust him but on the other hand I knew that he wouldn't do that because if I leave, he'll find another client who'll pay him so why should he put the effort in convincing me to trust him? But he didn't comment on it so I started giving him examples why I do not trust him and why I don't feel his empathy... And then he started disagreeing (btw I always hate when he overtalks me - for first seconds we both talk at the same time but I always give up) and raising his voice and telling me to think and that he was very emotional and angry at that time (and he really was). So probably I did provoke him to argue with me but I didn't do that in purpose - just the effect was so amazing that maybe I should annoy him more often?

[stopdog]

With one, constantly. Not much at all with the other one

[ScarletPimpernel]

I haven't really argued with my T. We debate a lot though. We are always debating about what the other person actually said. I want her to say something, she says she doesn't see the benefit. I tell her I want her to remove a restriction, she thinks I mean reduce a restriction. I tell her I'm fine, she thinks I'm lying when in fact I'm using fine as: f'ed up, insecure, neurotic, and emotional...lol. She asks if I'm going to SI, I say maybe, probably not. She threatens hospitalization if I SI or have suicidal thoughts, I tell her that she actually can't hospitalize me for SI or suicidal thoughts unless I have a clear plan. I consider this all debating because neither one of us get mad, hurt, or upset. We always laugh it off.

My most favorite thing to do in therapy though, is turn their techniques back on to them. It's freaking hilarious!!! My T the other day asked me to define the word "safe". Few minutes later she asked me if I was going to be okay this week. I turned it around and asked her to define the word "okay"....lol. She actually tried to define it!

Another day, we were talking, and I went off on a tangent. She interrupted me by telling me to shush, and that I was going off track (I really didn't mind). Few minutes later, she was telling me that I really need to give myself more credit for things (which we already talked about earlier in the session). I interrupted her and told her to shush because we already talked about that and she was going off on a tangent. She agreed and just laughed.

[ready2makenice]

T and I do argue quite a bit. Mostly me yelling at the woman but recently realize that she's grown some balls and started raising her voice back...the first time I was taken a back...like who the hell does she think she is yelling at ME?

We disagree a lot,but we are not malicious towards one another and somehow we make what we have work

[Freewilled]

No, I don't - but sometimes I wonder if my T is trying to drive me to do so! I think if I started to argue with him, he would fall out of his chair. Seriously. Because when I am sitting in front of him, all my personality and whatever it is that I am, just falls away. I'm mush. I can see validity in everything he says soooooo....he almost literally begs me for an opinion or reaction and I find it so uncomfortable that I freeze. I'm like, "well yeah, I can see what you mean." . . . . Awkward silence. . . . Or I'm like, "yeah, that does make sense, T." . . . . Well but it does! Lol my poor T /:

I think the fact you can be so open about this stuff shows you feel safe and it's a good thing. I hope to genuinely get there someday.

[learning1]

No. I can't imagine having much of any strong opinions about anything with her. I can't imagine her disagreeing with much.

[Petra5ed]

Right now, no, we've never argued. I think a lot of that is me being a weenie, not that I've never been angry or irritated. In the past I've been known to love an argument. Maybe this last bout of depression took the joy of that away, who knows. One time I sadly showed up for therapy on the wrong day . When I showed up and the T wasn't there, after waiting 20 minutes I was very pissed and thought about sending a text. Anyways right before I'm getting ready to go he drives up, apologizes and says he somehow must have confused the day I requested an appointment. Later he told me in a kind way, I couldn't find the email request for today, but I did see one for tomorrow. I was so glad that I didn't get angry then, haha.

Originally Posted by someone321

I came to the session empty and disappointed and I told him that I am not sure if I can trust him anymore and that on one hand I want him badly to convince me that I can trust him but on the other hand I knew that he wouldn't do that because if I leave, he'll find another client who'll pay him so why should he put the effort in convincing me to trust him? But he didn't comment on it so I started giving him examples why I do not trust him and why I don't feel his empathy... And then he started disagreeing (btw I always hate when he overtalks me - for first seconds we both talk at the same time but I always give up) and raising his voice and telling me to think and that he was very emotional and angry at that time (and he really was). So probably I did provoke him to argue with me but I didn't do that in purpose - just the effect was so amazing that maybe I should annoy him more often?

Do you really not trust him or were you just angry at him walking in? I'm just curious why you felt disappointed, or what he needed to do to convince you to trust him that he refused to do. Sometimes we can unknowingly create a reason to get distance when a relationship is getting closer and are feeling vulnerable. There are a number of reasons why you would feel this way depending on the facts and circumstances you know? Like if he really was lacking empathy and treating you badly, your taking revenge for calling him out on this might be a very healthy reaction.

[Karrebear]

I feel If i ever had an argument with my T, that in and of itself would be the end to our relationship because I know she would be mad and hate me so I wouldn't show my face again.

[someone321]

Originally Posted by Petra5ed

Do you really not trust him or were you just angry at him walking in? I'm just curious why you felt disappointed, or what he needed to do to convince you to trust him that he refused to do. Sometimes we can unknowingly create a reason to get distance when a relationship is getting closer and are feeling vulnerable. There are a number of reasons why you would feel this way depending on the facts and circumstances you know? Like if he really was lacking empathy and treating you badly, your taking revenge for calling him out on this might be a very healthy reaction.

So when I was coming yesterday, I felt like I do not want to trust him anymore because I had the feeling that whenever I put my guard down, he hit me in the weakest point, and I gave him two examples: (POSSIBLE TRIGGER)
1) I do have a great relationship with my parents and for last three sessions he tried to convince me to blame them because they did not manage to protect me from the abusers (they did not know about anything) and he did not say anything bad about my abusers but he said many not very nice things about my parents. In my opinion, even if he thought so and even if something of that was true he should not tell me something like that just before Xmas especially as he knew that I'd go home, meet at least 3 of my abusers and my parents are the "safe base" for me...
2) We missed the appointment, I guess it was a simple misunderstanding, I wrote down a day and hour (maybe wrong) but I read all dates a week earlier and he confirmed by saying "right" so it was not only my fault but when he did not show up and I sent him an e-mail, he responded that we were not supposed to have any meeting and when I disagreed he said that he's sorry for not making himself clear enough... And I felt like he punched me because two weeks earlier I had told him that the worst thing which happened to me last year was that I missed the doctor appointment and I could not forgive it myself, and I was pretty ill for two days etc. And this time I felt (maybe wrong) that he used that situation and really wanted to write "you have already messed once, so probably it's your fault again"...

So I do not know if actually I had a rational reason to not trust him... So he had to explain me some things, like for instance for me when I told him some things about csa, he only commented "when you were talking about it, I was feeling sick" - I told him that I may understand it as I make him feeling sick, and he actually confirmed that sometimes it might be correct (sic!). For me it was the lack of empathy (he could have said e.g. "this what happened to you made me feeling sick"), while for him it was sign of huge empathy because he was feeling sick... He said that I just wanted a pity not an empathy... He also explained me that he doesn't tell me this what I should hear (I really thought so!) or he doesn't think what might be the impact of his words on me (example - see point 1) which really surprised me because I always think about the possible influence of my words He also said that he thinks that I was angry or disappointed at him because he left me for two weeks break (Xmas holidays), I didn't think so but how can I judge it?

Based on this what I wrote, did I have a reason to feel his lack of empathy and my lack of trust or was I just overreacting?

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by ScarletPimpernel

I haven't really argued with my T. We debate a lot though. We are always debating about what the other person actually said. I want her to say something, she says she doesn't see the benefit. I tell her I want her to remove a restriction, she thinks I mean reduce a restriction. I tell her I'm fine, she thinks I'm lying when in fact I'm using fine as: f'ed up, insecure, neurotic, and emotional...lol. She asks if I'm going to SI, I say maybe, probably not. She threatens hospitalization if I SI or have suicidal thoughts, I tell her that she actually can't hospitalize me for SI or suicidal thoughts unless I have a clear plan. I consider this all debating because neither one of us get mad, hurt, or upset. We always laugh it off.

My most favorite thing to do in therapy though, is turn their techniques back on to them. It's freaking hilarious!!! My T the other day asked me to define the word "safe". Few minutes later she asked me if I was going to be okay this week. I turned it around and asked her to define the word "okay"....lol. She actually tried to define it!

Another day, we were talking, and I went off on a tangent. She interrupted me by telling me to shush, and that I was going off track (I really didn't mind). Few minutes later, she was telling me that I really need to give myself more credit for things (which we already talked about earlier in the session). I interrupted her and told her to shush because we already talked about that and she was going off on a tangent. She agreed and just laughed.

This is why Ts have trouble with smart patients.

Originally Posted by ScarletPimpernel

My T the other day asked me to define the word "safe". Few minutes later she asked me if I was going to be okay this week. I turned it around and asked her to define the word "okay"....lol. She actually tried to define it!

That's what I call "normal conversaion", actually... H and I, and my closest friends and I, always discuss word definitions. It always weirds me out when people don't do that! T and I spend a lot of time making sure that our words mean the same thing, and we have definitely talked about what "okay" means. I think it's a sign of respect for the other person in the conversation, that you don't waste each other's time talking about stuff that might mean different things. I don't see it as a therapeutic technique, but it's definitely a way to make a conversation more interesting and meaningful.

[Petra5ed]

Originally Posted by someone321

So when I was coming yesterday, I felt like I do not want to trust him anymore because I had the feeling that whenever I put my guard down, he hit me in the weakest point, and I gave him two examples: (POSSIBLE TRIGGER)
1) I do have a great relationship with my parents and for last three sessions he tried to convince me to blame them because they did not manage to protect me from the abusers (they did not know about anything) and he did not say anything bad about my abusers but he said many not very nice things about my parents. In my opinion, even if he thought so and even if something of that was true he should not tell me something like that just before Xmas especially as he knew that I'd go home, meet at least 3 of my abusers and my parents are the "safe base" for me...
2) We missed the appointment, I guess it was a simple misunderstanding, I wrote down a day and hour (maybe wrong) but I read all dates a week earlier and he confirmed by saying "right" so it was not only my fault but when he did not show up and I sent him an e-mail, he responded that we were not supposed to have any meeting and when I disagreed he said that he's sorry for not making himself clear enough... And I felt like he punched me because two weeks earlier I had told him that the worst thing which happened to me last year was that I missed the doctor appointment and I could not forgive it myself, and I was pretty ill for two days etc. And this time I felt (maybe wrong) that he used that situation and really wanted to write "you have already messed once, so probably it's your fault again"...

So I do not know if actually I had a rational reason to not trust him... So he had to explain me some things, like for instance for me when I told him some things about csa, he only commented "when you were talking about it, I was feeling sick" - I told him that I may understand it as I make him feeling sick, and he actually confirmed that sometimes it might be correct (sic!). For me it was the lack of empathy (he could have said e.g. "this what happened to you made me feeling sick"), while for him it was sign of huge empathy because he was feeling sick... He said that I just wanted a pity not an empathy... He also explained me that he doesn't tell me this what I should hear (I really thought so!) or he doesn't think what might be the impact of his words on me (example - see point 1) which really surprised me because I always think about the possible influence of my words He also said that he thinks that I was angry or disappointed at him because he left me for two weeks break (Xmas holidays), I didn't think so but how can I judge it?

Based on this what I wrote, did I have a reason to feel his lack of empathy and my lack of trust or was I just overreacting?

Well in my view whether you trust him or not doesn't have to be based on anything rational, and I don't think it's something you can choose either, you will just either trust or not. A persons intuition and gut reaction is far more reliable than trying to make sense of things in a rational way, because for example, if this T had some hidden agenda he wouldn't be advertising that to you but it might be something you pick up on intuitively. So I guess my true thought on this is if you don't trust him deep down you need to go with that and assume you are right.

In those scenarios, #1 does sound bad and confusing. Confusing because I wonder what his agenda is, I wonder if he was stressed about you going home and concerned for you. Xmas does seem like a crazy stupid time to drag up that though, and a T shouldn't be counseling you into worse relationships! On the missed appointment, that is funny. I wonder how often this comes up. I really doubt he was trying to tell you that "you have already messed once, so probably it's your fault again." It's just my gut feeling that worry is coming more from you than something a T would be thinking, and even if you did mess up it shouldn't be a big deal. But, again, you are going to be the best judge of how he says things because even if you get the words verbatim, the delivery of them can give a whole different message. On the feeling sick comment, I agree, I think that was a insensitive. He should know better, because the way he said it sounds like he cant handle hearing about it, vs. showing empathy and opening up the lines of communication further with you. It could be he said it the wrong way. I hope things work out or you find someone better.

Oh, and if he really doesn't think about the impact of his words on you then that is definitely not good because I thought this was what T's did.

I would love to argue with T. Sometimes between appointments I think about all the things I could say to frustrate T, to see a genuine angry, real response. I think about this in bad moments when I’m hurt. But when I’m actually sitting across from him, I couldn’t imagine it. He’s too thoughtful and kind. We haven’t disagreed on much yet, but I know it’s coming…