What are the appropriate boundaries inside and outside of Therapy

I wouldn't ask her to but I would like to know that it is there.

Plus it seems like the viewpoints seem to contradict themselves in one way they don't want to observe me because they are not on the clock but yet they can't have a social conversation with me because they are still my Therapist. This seems to say that in some ways they are still on the clock but in other ways they are not which doesn't seem to make much sense.

I don’t think I want to know T outside a professional capacity. If I saw T in public, I’d nod, perhaps give a brief ‘hello’ and be on my way. If T didn’t see me, I might avoid him completely. I don’t want to see my T as more than just a person 100% dedicated to me and my issues. It’s the only selfish relationship I have J Although I’d love more of the undivided attention and care, I know I couldn’t replicate the same feeling I get in therapy in everyday life. Real life T has needs and issues that I don’t want to deal with. It’s like the person you have a crush on, that all of a sudden starts returning the feelings… and you spend time with them and realize you don’t have much in common at all.

Boundaries exist for a reason… and I know it’s tempting to fantasize, but the fantasy is always better than reality IMHO.

You don't seem to be getting what we've all been saying to you. Your T doesn't want to have a social conversation with you. She's off the clock and the most she wants to do is say "hi, hope you have a nice day" and move on with her own life. In the same way, she isn't going to make therapeutic observations about you BECAUSE she isn't going to speak to you very long.

I see no contradiction here. They are your therapist, which means that too much social interaction (beyond a friendly greeting, same as you would give to any acquaintance) would probably be inappropriate. "Probably", because all people are different, and that includes people who are therapists. But they are not working all the time, and so it's unlikely in the extreme that they would use their free time to do what is, in fact, their work (i.e., observe their clients.)

All this sounds like a really good topic for you to explore. As somebody said above, it seems more relevant to look at why this is so important to you, than to hammer out the exact boundaries for all hypothetical situations at the beginning of therapy.

I think you can talk about anything, to anyone, at any time; it is your therapist that cannot talk about you as "you" other than to you. But, if you wanted, you could tell your best friend or enemy what you think of your therapist and why just like you can tell them what you think about any other subject. Boundary rules are on the therapist. You can ask your therapist anything but your therapist is under no obligation to answer anything they don't feel is germane to your treatment.

If you see your therapist wherever, you can approach and say hello or you can ignore or you can make faces at her, whatever you feel like Or, you can ask "what should I do if we meet outside sessions?" and the two of you talk about it and mutually decide what works for the two of you.

Boundaries tend to get broken because one is thinking too hard only about one's self but boundaries often have to get broken before one can know/learn there is a boundary there. Most boundaries in therapy will get mentioned in the first few meetings with the therapist, there are no universals but often one therapist will have similar boundaries to others; yes/no to email/other contact, acting out discouraged (no "ambulance chasing"), pay on time, arrive on time, give notification of cancellation at least 24 hours ahead or pay, etc. Other than what is mentioned, the relationship evolves over time and what procedures are followed in the beginning might get changed as one goes through the process.

But that is the thing, it makes you feel like you are nothing but an appointment on your Therapist's calendar when I think that you are much more than that.

. . . which is, I suspect, why you are so fixated on these scenarios.

Look, many people struggle with the strictly professional boundaries between therapists and their clients, but those boundaries are there truly to protect the client. It may be hard for you to understand, but if your T chums up with you, they have crossed a boundary and the actual therapeutic relationship and work becomes compromised.

You might want to discuss this with your therapist so you can understand why it is that way. Don't go into the discussion trying to prove your point. That's not going to be helpful to you. Go into the discussion with the goal of learning how a therapist can be both a professional and care about you WITHIN the boundaries of your sessions. Like it or not, you are going to have to find some peace with that idea.

That is one of my problems I always go into any type of discussion as if it is a debate (my mom has even told me this and I have taken this approach at every family therapy session) and I always have to try to convince people that I have the best point, when in reality I don't know if that is always the best approach.

T's do like/care/some even love their clients. But what they feel is different than what we feel.

Let's try this example. A person goes to the ER for a broken leg. The doctor's job is to help mend the broken leg. The doctor DOES care for the person. But that's his job. He has his own life outside the job. If you see him, you can say hi. But to assume you are anything more than a patient/client is unrealistic. T's DO care, but you're not their friend and they aren't yours. Again, think of the poor ER doc if all his patients want to socialize with him.

Taking care of the client during set time is the T's job. It is your job to take what the T has taught you and apply it to YOUR LIFE...

I agree with others. You should find out what's really behind this desire. Then maybe you can not only understand yourself but also what everyone's been trying to explain. None of this is personally against you (though it might feel like it), it's just the way things are...and for very good reasons.

There is really no comparison between an ER Doctor and a weekly Therapist, since you will likely only see your ER Doctor once (and you may not even be fully conscious at that time) since even when you are doing rehab for the injury it will probably be with another doctor. Whereas with a Therapist most people see them once a week in some cases for several years (for some people that adds up to several hundred times in their lifetimes) so you really can't make a fair comparison between the two.

Your words, and in fact your entire thread, are triggering to me. That's okay; I need to read the responses too, since intellectually I know what the reality is, but emotionally part of me would express a lot of what you've written.

I think you know that I struggle with boundary issues too, and the seemingly unfairness of the therapeutic relationship. I wish that I could be friends with my T, but I can't because then she couldn't be my T. However, I am not JUST an appointment on her calendar. I AM much more than that! I think I already wrote, if not in your thread then somewhere else, what my first T told me. She said our relationship is different from a friendship or any other relationship, but that does not make it less.
My current T and I have a close relationship but it is limited to our sessions, basically. I know she thinks about me outside of my sessions sometimes, but not as much as I think about her. I'm her JOB, but she cares. People in the helping professions usually care very much for the people they serve. I KNOW how much my T cares about me. She's invested in my growth and healing. She and I share our hobbies IN the therapy room, but not outside. If I send her a photo I've taken, she'll tell me how much she likes it IN the session. If I would see her somewhere in public, I know she'd say "hello"; she wouldn't avoid me, but she wouldn't stand there and talk to me for very long.

The truth hurts me because I feel like my closest relationship is with my T. I have shared things with her that I haven't with anyone else in my life. But she hasn't shared with me. I'm her client, and that's the reality I have to live with. So many clients wish it were different, as evident from reading this forum, but it's the reality of therapy. It wouldn't work any other way.

I'm sorry to ramble on about this, but I feel like I know what you are struggling with. Why not socialize with your T outside of therapy? Why not blur the boundaries? You're both human beings, and you are comfortable with each other. I get that! There IS a middle ground in thinking about what a T is, though. She or he is a special person who can mean the world to you, but you still relate during a limited time, in the therapy room, because that's the purpose of your seeing a T in the first place.

I hope I've made some sense. Again, I hope that you can work these feelings through with your new T.

I think what I have been saying is that I myself have a life outside of Therapy but if it just so happens (as unlikely as that might be) that it crosses paths once with my Therapists life outside of Therapy than embrace it and don't try to avoid it.

There was an incident that happened to me while I was seeing my former T. I forgot about it, but it's relevant to what you just posted. It happened once, and was beautiful. My T and I were once at the same religious service. I had a prayer book and she didn't. There weren't any others available, so I asked if she wanted to sit next to me and share with me. She did, and I was kind of nervous/excited, but it worked out. This was for about half an hour, maybe.

Afterward, at my next session, I wanted to discuss how amazing the experience was! I think she said it was beautiful, but not if I kept dwelling/obsessing about it. It happened once, and never again.

Is that what you mean? T and I weren't talking, though, and it did not last very long. But, yes, I embraced the experience, she let me sit next to her, and I didn't avoid the situation. Neither did she.

I still hold by everything I posted above. It was not the best situation that I saw my T in social situations which we couldn't avoid. Once I got very triggered by seeing her with her grandchildren. I was a wreck!! It's kind of like the way I felt when I saw my current T on FB. It hurts. It's better to keep therapy and real life separate.

Somewhat rainbow8, what I am trying to say is that you and your Therapist have completely different lives outside of session but you paths may happen to intersect at some point in time, if it does don't let it slip away something very special and memorable can come out of it which you never know could be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity thing.

I do strongly believe that everything happens for a reason.

In the end it's up to your T; not any of us. But if you do find yourself at a social event and try to socialize with your T, and she doesn't want to, you have to respect that.

BTW, do you find it interesting that you can differentiate between a ER doc and a T, but not a friend and a T?

Another thing to think about: I'm sure you have boundaries of your own. How would you feel if someone disregarded your boundaries solely because they wanted to. This all is about respecting people for who they are. This isn't about being right or wrong.

That's like me driving by T's house because I wanted to. My T has boundaries and she didn't want me doing that. I have to respect her boundary even though I may or may not think it's wrong.

No I certainly can differentiate between a friend and a Therapist, for instance I am not going to ask my Therapist if she wants to go to an upcoming rock concert with me (like I would with a friend) but if I see her there than I may want to have a conversation that is likely almost solely about the event (if I was there with a friend than we likely would be socializing about many more things there).

The therapist is paid to see you, just paid by the government. They wouldn't work for free in general- the work is their livlihood. You're talking about having them work for free and cross personal boundaries and have a dual-relationship if you want them to observe you and meet up with you in a friendly way at some event.

You may have even more trouble understanding the boundaries because you don't have to pay for the session out of pocket, but try to remember, every minute you are there is paid for time.

Therapists aren't wingmen and therapists aren't friends, nor are they social coaches. What they can help you with is what you talk about in therapy sessions. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing, that they just focus on you primarily during appointments. You aren't "just" an appointment, you're a person getting psychological help, just like seeing a doctor for a broken leg, but with more ethical considerations.

But no matter what if I saw her outside somewhere she is someone that I know so why not approach it in the same way (or close to the same way) as I would she I see someone else that I know somewhere (I'm not talking about a friend just someone who I may know). Basically I am saying is that just because she is my Therapist doesn't mean that I should deliberately try to avoid her or have a significantly reduced conversation because of it

Exactly. You're thoughts, feelings, and desires are okay to have. It's not okay to disrespect other because you want to.

I too know where my T lives. I don't drive by her house because I know it would hurt her (that and I don't drive). But I love my T SO MUCH that I will never ever put my wants over her needs.

Actually, a therapist is really someone *who knows you* not someone that you know. That's the whole point. It's not a balanced relationship. On the client's side is a desire to be better and willingness to pay for help the other side is desire to help with an objective perspective in exchange for payment, no entanglement. Not friendship where you share equally and there's no money involved.

Well, I'm going to graciously back out of this. I truly LOVE debates, but it's not fun when it's used to prove something right or wrong. Debating should be used when both parties have an open mind and want to expand their learning.

As I said before, I really hope everything works out for you, RT. I do know what the desire is like. But I also know that some things are just not meant to be.

Lots of love!!!

I'm not sure if I follow you here.

To put it another way, a therapist is not someone who will be sharing their lives with you in any significant way. They are there to teach you, support you, witness your struggle, help you do better. You are not there to do that for them.

It's different with friends, it's different with most other relationships, where you trade support and share fun and other things. Therapy is a different kind of trading, mostly money for help. That type of trading doesn't work out in the way you are hoping for/imagining.

But I don't want my Therapist to be my friend and I never said that I did.