What are the appropriate boundaries inside and outside of Therapy

Hi RT. I don't think we've ever spoken, but nice to meet you. FYI, I'm well-known here at PC for having a T with "questionable," "flexible," "inconsistent" boundaries. Those boundaries have caused both great joy and great pain, but I have managed to find healing despite this. I'm also known for being straightforward sometimes. This is one of those times. Anyway, couple of questions:

Why are you focused on this type of scenario? Do you know something about this T already (i.e. you both like Burning Man or Elevate)?

You do realize that someone can accept your POV and still disagree with it, right? A lot of people get hung up on that. A T can accept that your opinion about boundaries is valid and still have the exact opposite opinion (and his/her opinion is equally valid). Do you want this T to tell you your opinion is valid, or correct.

IMO, if you lead off with this as a beginning topic in therapy, most T's would probably be wary of you. If I were in your T's spot, I might lean toward an opinion of "stalkerish".

Well I already mentioned it to the person who conducted my intake session so they already know that I have issues with boundaries.

I don't necessarily want my Therapist to say that my opinion is correct but I don't wan't her to force her opinion down mine as correct (like I thought that my prior Therapist was trying to do).

Well, if the intimate gathering encourages dumping normal ethical rules of society too much, I think it's a questionable kind of gathering, a bit like a cult.

I think normal therapy rules say you can't ever interact outside therapy beyond a basic, few sentence "hellos". I think once you know more about the therapist (besides the way they act while they are being paid), then you'll act differently with them.

You're not supposed to get to know them outside therapy because then therapy can't focus on you.

In my view a therapist shouldn't see any client outside of session or have any interaction, and I bet there are very few who actually do this. It wouldn't be confidentiality but the quality of the therapy itself as the reason. T's are all discouraged from creating "dual relationships" so they cant be your friend or try to fool you into believing they one day will be. In order for there to be psychotherapy, an academic art which is based on years of research and study, all experts agree, a lover, friend, or family member cannot be your therapist. Blurring the lines is not appropriate for a T, other people will frown on it and see it as a predatory relationship, because a T weilds power like a teacher over a student or a parent over a child it can never be an equal relationship. Clients are by nature vulnerable and the allure of a caring attentive person can be hard to resist for when you are struggling with life, but the reality is in real life the T is a different person and one that you don't know and shouldn't know, because all that's important is who you think they are.

Another reason is they are paid for their time, but who is going to pay for all the out of session time. If they did give that much time to all their clients they would have no lives and would spend instead 7 days a week listening to sad stories and people talking about themselves. T's need to take a mental break and have time to reflect etc. between sessions, plus a personal life. You really want a healthy happy T and not one who is using their patients to fill social roles in their lives.

I believe that longing to have contact with a T is at the root of a lot of pain comingled with past memories and at the root of what issues depression etc that drove people into therapy in the first place. Feelings of need like this are so common for people in psychotherapy that I hope you can open up with your T about the feelings vs just focusing on the wrong or right rules of outside contact. You need to keep the focus on yourself and making progress toward your goals. If you are merely using the therapist to build a relationship to sustain you that's no way to live. Any good T would not foster a dependency. If you can talk to your T about these feelings I bet they can help you work through them.

I hope there's a way the new therapist could be more respectful of your ideas than your last therapist. Even if they still don't believe in doing things with clients outside of therapy.

I have been to several of the kind of intimate gatherings you are talking about-- Burning Man, Arete, Hestia, Landmark, and several lesbian/feminist consciousness raising retreats. I understand what you mean when you say that societal rules are largely discarded for the duration of the event. However, I do not think it would be at all appropriate for a T to attend that kind of an event with a client. In fact, in one retreat I participated in, they divided us into sharing groups and intentionally divided certain people in order to prevent a former teacher/student and a parent/adult kid's friend pair from interacting too closely with one another as they felt that would be "inappropriate." The T-client relationship can never be "pushed aside," even during these kinds of retreats. The T-client relationship supersedes all other possible relationships-- not only ethically, but often legally as well. In my state in the US, it is actually illegal for a T to have a "dual relationship" or "outside of therapy" relationship (non-sexual or sexual) with a client within 2 years of termination. So, if a T were to drive in a car to Burning Man with a client and interact with the client at the festival, the therapist could actually lose their license.

Aside from the legality of it, you have to ask yourself: "Why would the therapist WANT to attend a festival with a client?" Most therapists would find that incredibly uncomfortable, awkward, and unappealing. There is really no incentive for the therapist. They would not want to spend their personal, free time with someone who is their "job." They would not feel comfortable sharing their personal life or their free time with a client, and they would not want to "work" by hearing about the client's life or the client's experience of the event during their off-time. Most likely, the T is already over-worked and has little free time to spend with friends, family, partner, etc. Why would a T want to go to a festival where they had no friends, no partner, and no family-- and the closest personal connection they had was a client? Doesn't sound like much fun! How could the T possibly relax and let loose with a client there?

My T and I are quite close, and she has relatively loose boundaries for a T. She has told me a lot about her personal life and her relationships, and she allows contact between sessions. But even she doesn't feel comfortable attending events that me or other clients will be at. For instance, she and I are both part of the LGBT community and she wanted to attend Pride-- but she didn't because she said she couldn't enjoy the festival because there was too big of a risk of running into clients. She said she would feel that she had to constantly look over her shoulder and monitor her behavior, lest a client see her acting "unprofessional." She said that IF we were friends instead of Client-T, I'd be a fun person to see at Pride. BUT, she said that because we ARE T-client, it would be inappropriate. In that instance, T-client overrules the fact that, under different circumstances, we could be two LGBT women chatting, having drinks, and introducing our friends/partners to one another. I feel the same way as my T-- I don't want to see HER at Pride either! I would feel as if I had to look over my shoulder, and make sure my T didn't catch me making out with a beautiful woman by the beer tent! So, in that, we agree.

But, even if I didn't and I felt the way you do, it wouldn't matter because BOTH people would have to be ok with those kind of loose boundaries. If just ONE person is not okay with that, then it can't happen. You also have to understand, whether you agree or not, that in many professional circles, it would make T look VERY bad to her colleagues and governing agencies to be going to retreats with her clients. It would jeopardize her professional career. Most Ts would not want to jeopardize their career over something like this, especially considering that most Ts would not WANT to go to an event like this with a client. I can tell you with certainty that I would not want to go to this kind of an event with any of my students. If I ever ran into a student at this kind of an event, I would leave the event. I would never feel comfortable sharing, relaxing, or being emotionally/physically/spiritually intimate with a student present. It would completely ruin the experience for me. When I leave work, I don't want to see my students. I cannot take the "professor" hat off ever, in a student's presence.

scorpiosis37- I very much appreciate your comment and I do agree somewhat but still there is no comparison from an intimate gathering and a clients "main" personal life (such as family, friends ect.) in the case of an intimate gathering since it rarely conflicts with anything going one in the Therapists personal life outside of the gathering, and I feel the same way about my "main" personal life (I wouldn't want me Therapist to know anything about it- or at least almost anything).

Also while I can't force you do anything I would strongly discourage you from completely leaving an intimate gathering should you see one of your students there, I am not saying that you have to interact with them (although I do see it as appropriate should you decide to) but you shouldn't leave because of them.

Personal if my Therapist still saw me as her client there it would ruin the spirit of the gathering, which is to discard any and all titles that you may have.

You and your Therapist do have a unique professional relationship but you may have other unique relationships outside of Therapy and should you happen to cross paths embrace those relationships don't try to avoid them. I don't care what anyone says you are more than just a date on your Therapists calendar you are a Three-Dimensional Human Being.

I'm not sure I would agree with this (bolded). I would see your information seeking as a boundary violation in that it seeks to blur the line between the therapy relationship and a personal relationship. It compels information that is not freely given by the other person. You often seem to talk about, and act on, finding "ways around" boundaries that you disagree with. I'm really not trying to be harsh, but I think part of your issue with boundaries does play itself out in ways you may not be fully aware of. That's what gives the "stalkerish" impression.

No what I am saying is that I respected her point of view but I thought that my point of view was the best to maximize a Therapist-Client relationship, I didn't agree with a solid line I agreed with a progressively fading line, but I still respected her point of view in it (it seemed like she was trying to get me to agree with her point of view which I was not going to).

Plus I have said this before but most ethical codes are way out of date and even complete BS (this is not the 1920s or even the 1950s when ethics in society in general were much much different).

It should also be noted that it is possible for my points of view on things to change. For instance years ago I thought that there was nothing wrong with a Therapist and Client to have a romantic relationship (I never wanted one myself with any prior Therapist I just didn't see why it was wrong) but after looking over things for a while I did see why it is wrong and now agree with that code.

Perhaps we have different views on what constitutes "respect."

You say that you want your therapist to accept your views regarding boundaries and not force her views on you, and yet that seems to be exactly what you are doing to me in your response.

I have already decided on what my boundaries are, and they are based on a lot of critical thought, reflection, and experience. I've seen the negative effects that can come from dual relationships, and I do not want to engage in them at all, at any cost. I do not WANT to be in these kinds of situations with my students. It would prevent ME from having a good time. It would be awkward and uncomfortable for ME. Me and my friends/date would simply leave and go somewhere else and have a great time at another venue.

The primary reason I leave is because I do not WANT to be there. However, I also feel that it would be entirely unprofessional for me to leave my role as their professor at the door-- even at a retreat-- and allow my students to see me drink, exhibit PDA, curse, share personal stories, etc. They would have seen something they were not supposed to see, and they could not simply "forget" that when they showed up to class on Monday morning. They would see me differently, even unconsciously. In all likelihood, they would also tell their friends/classmates, begin to ask me personal questions, or think that we could have a dual relationship or attend similar events in the future. I've seen these things spiral out of control, and I do not want to put myself in that situation. I want to keep my professional life and my personal life entirely separate. Any overlap makes me feel claustrophobic and yucky. It's also true that when professors do these kinds of things, the entire department talks. It looks really bad on those professors, and they lose a lot of professional respect. Whether or not that is right is not the issue-- it happens. My career is very important to me. Keeping that work/life balance in check also allows me to get the "break" that I need from my job so that I can have a job AND a life. I would suspect that many therapists feel similarly. We all need a BREAK from work; who wants work to creep in and invade your personal life and your down time?

Have you ever held the kind of job where you have students, clients, or something similar? If you have, it might be easier for you to understand this from the T/prof perspective. I think it's easy for clients and students to think it would be "fun" to have these experiences with their Ts/profs. However, it is not similarly "fun" for those of us on this side!

No I was just giving you an idea, if you want to leave and IMO ruin the rest of your experience there than that's no skin off my back.

I will say though that if the students you work with are minors that that adds another legal piece to the puzzle.

In any event yes Therapists and Clients have a life outside of the therapy room but sometimes their lives cross paths and that is OK- basically what I am trying to say is don't avoid it embrace it- who knows it could be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity with any client you may ever see.

BTW even if someone is not legally bond to any officially "confidentiality" agreement doesn't mean that there are not completely risk free then can still face civil lawsuits should they disclose information that may corrupt someone, plus I can tell you that at these intimate gatherings there is very much a pact between everyone there that you don't tell anyone on the outside what goes on at these gatherings, I have been to several intimate gatherings and have never told anyone on the outside what goes on at them.

This does not sound like you respected her view. You thought you knew better than her. Respecting someone's view does not usually mean saying your view is better than theirs. Have you also had psychological education and training and conducted clinical research and done studies of the literature in order to determine how to best maximize the T-client relationship? If you are not trained as a therapist, it seems rather difficult to substantiate this claim.

From your posts, it sounds as though you are quite young. Are you a college student? Do you know that in the 1920s and 1930s, it would actually be perfectly acceptable for a client and a T to live together, have sex, and otherwise have many dual relationships? Freud and Jeung did that with their clients. It is only SINCE then that these ethical codes have been put into place, in order to prevent the kind of damage that was done in the early days of psychoanalysis and other forms of therapy. The ethical codes are STRONGER now, because we know so much more about the T-client relationship after the fallout of those kinds of situations.

Do you understand how you are disrespecting my choices and my experiences by saying that? You are not being respectful of other people's boundaries when you make comments like that. If that is the way that you respond when you talk to your Ts about boundaries, then that is probably where the issue arises and one of the things you might want to explore with your new T. If you don't understand what respecting someone else's boundaries looks like, that would be a great thing to learn.

You also seem to struggle with being able to look at a situation from someone else's perspective-- to step outside of yourself and try to understand how someone else might view a situation differently. You think leaving a gathering would necessarily ruin someone's experience. You aren't able to see how remaining at a gathering could ruin someone's experience, or how leaving would invite someone to have a different, more rewarding experience somewhere else. It is dependent upon the person in question.

I am 30 and long out of College (almost 8 years), but you have to realize that things are different now than they were 100 years ago, because back than you hardly even had any contact with anyone you either didn't work with (which back than was usually a very limited number of people) or were related to, now it is completely different, I communicate via the Internet (mostly on Facebook) with people who are on all different parts of the world and most of them I will never meet in real life but that is generally seen as acceptable in today's world and really is the norm (everyone who I personally see on a regular basis also communicates with people from all different parts of the world).

scorpiosis37- I am sorry if I offended you and didn't mean to

Just a comment, but it sounds like you don't want her to force her opinion on you, but you want to force your opinion on her.

That being said, I do get the desire to have a relationship outside of therapy with your T, but it wasn't appropriate in the 1950's, and it's not appropriate now. The "rules" are in place to protect you and the T. What if all her clients wanted to break her boundaries? She would never be able to have a life of her own. If people REALLY care about their T, they will respect their T's boundaries...even if you don't like them.

I have only known my T for 3 months. I love her (not in love). We get along so well. We could honestly be close friends. BUT, she's my T. And while she's my T, she cannot be my friend. BUT...if she stops being my T and it is consentual, we can be friends, but the relationship changes. If you want a T, you have to let her be a T. If you want a friend, you have to look else where. For me, I need my T to be a T. But I have told her that I might want a friendship with her in the future, but I know the whole relationship will change.

And you mentioned that you would see your friend as a dentist. If you're a female, would you be okay with being friends with your gynecologist? What is it, proctologist for male? I don't know if I'd be okay with my friends knowing about my "nether regions". Same thing with therapy. A T will learn over time all your secrets. She is paid to be accepting and help you deal with your issues. But that doesn't mean she agrees with your choices or wants to socialize with you outside of work. Work and social life are usually seperate.

I think this is hard for you because you are genuinely a nice caring person. And you desperately want equal relationships with people. But the nature of therapy is that it's never equal. You feel "connected", but that doesn't mean she feels the same connection. It's like having a crush on someone who just wants to be your friend. When the expectations don't match, the relationship usually falls apart. It's just the way the world works. It's not good/bad, fair/unfair, or rational/irrational. It's a common unspoken language that protects us from possible harm.

Sorry if I'm going off on a tangent. My point is, your feelings are normal. Your thoughts are normal. Your wants/desires are normal. Your expectations are probably unrealistic in 99.999% of healthy therapeutic relationships. I hope that makes a little sense. I'm in no way trying to hurt your feelings nor do I think anyone here wants to. But we also can't lie to you just because you don't like/agree with reality.

I hope that whatever happens, you relationship with your new T turns out to be HEALTHY and BENFICAL to you, and maybe she might be able to help you work on understanding or at least accepting boundaries.

My T once said in group T that he likes to look at boundaries not as firm lines not to be crossed but rather as a meeting point between two people that can be explored and negotiated. The rigidity etc. provides helpful tools to help navigate the process.

Exactly and this is how I see them as well.

I think that we primarily have been talking about the real intimate gatherings that me and my Therapist could cross paths at but which I will admit is extremely unlikely (but I do appreciate everyone's viewpoints on because this stuff does race through my mind almost daily) so maybe it is time to take a step back and bring up a scenario that I will be attending (provided I get over this flu that I have ) this Friday and Saturday and that is a motor-sports trade show, which is not an intimate gathering but rather a social gathering:

I think that if I was to see my Therapist at a gathering like that then I would still see them as my Therapist (knowing that the gathering is far from personal and far from cut off from the rest of the world) but would also see as someone who is a big fan of motor-sports as I am. I think that if I saw her there I would definitely like to spend more than just a few minutes discussing things such as what are favorite types of motor racing are (since there are quite a few represented at the event) and who are favorite drivers in them are among other things. [An interesting angle at this event (which I have never seen at any other similar event) is that you get to mark your spot in advance for someone who will later be having an autograph session and comeback right before the signing rater than have to wait in line for the entire duration so it is entirely possible that when I go back to my seat shortly before the session that I could see her in another seat in the line and if I want to I could certainly go over there and not lose my spot in line.] I even think that setting up a tentative meeting spot is also acceptable (i.e. at 1PM on Saturday I will be over at the food concession area if you want to meet there to discuss the trade show) however neither of us would fully commit to being there at that time nor would we give out any personal numbers so if one of us was to not show up than you just move on. In other words at a social (or as I have said before semi-public) event like this I still think that a line between Therapist and Client exists however the line is lighter than it would be had we met at some place like the Supermarket.

In your case where you could see her at an event such as the one you describe, I would still keep contact to a minumum. Do you attend these with a friend or on your own?

If you were with a group and your t was also, I think it is appropriate to either smile and say hello, but not go out of your way to see your T and make further conversation. Focus on who you are with and let her focus on who she is with. That eliminates the awkwardness of people asking who this person is (on your end and the Ts end) and just keeps things separate as they should be. In the office, your T is a close confidante. But outside the office, your T is an acquaintance. I know this is hard to reconcile but that is the reality. Keeping it friendly but simple is polite but respectful of your T's need for a life separate from her work.

If you are both solo at the event, you could venture a little further and say hello with some small talk. I'd also keep it short and simple though, as the same scenario applies - she is an acquaintance out of the therapy room and that is the way it is supposed to be. Of course there is no need to avoid her altogether, but to make a concerted effort to socialize could make your T uncomfortable and you do need to respect that.

That's just my take on it, so I hope it doesn't seem harsh. Using your therapy as a place to go over this is a great idea, and you may learn a lot from your T. I could be way off the mark and she might have a different perspective. Either way I think it is an important way to learn about the boundaries of other people and how to adhere to them even if we don't agree with them. This is one of the things T's have (or should have) expertise in, so use this as an opportunity to learn.

[quote=RTerroni;3511044

.... I would definitely like to spend more than just a few minutes discussing things such as what are favorite types of motor racing are (since there are quite a few represented at the event) and who are favorite drivers in them are among other things... I even think that setting up a tentative meeting spot is also acceptable (i.e. at 1PM on Saturday I will be over at the food concession area if you want to meet there to discuss the trade show) however neither of us would fully commit to being there at that time nor would we give out any personal numbers so if one of us was to not show up than you just move on. In other words at a social (or as I have said before semi-public) event like this I still think that a line between Therapist and Client exists however the line is lighter than it would be had we met at some place like the Supermarket.[/quote]

In that scenario, your therapist would be consulting with you for free if they agreed to meet you at a set time at a social event. That won't happen. They don't do dual-relationships- i.e. no friendships, even casual ones. Their time with you is basically paid time, time spent on the things that pain you and fixing them. They can't and won't ethically and legally in some places really engage in random other meetings unless they're lacking in professional standards.

OK what you said makes me feel like I am nothing more than a paid appointment to my Therapist (which for me doesn't really hold because I have medical assistance and don't have to pay for the appointments myself) when I couldn't disagree more, I am a regular person just like my Therapist is and if we meet at a social gathering than we can definitely communicate beyond just a simple hello, even if we are there with other people in some circumstances because in most cases all of us are there for a specific purpose (our love for different types of moto-sports). I have even said this before to a prior Therapist but to see me at a social gathering might be beneficial to them because they can do some (informal) observations on how I may behave in certain public places and we can discuss that at our next session (and she can definitely give me some tips on how I can improve).

If your T is at a moto-sports event, it is very likely that they just want to enjoy the event and nothing more. If your T takes it upon herself to observe your behavior as you suggest, then mention a few things to you at yuor next session then that is her choice. But to ask her to do this is not very respectful of her as an individual in my opinion.

It is very important to remember that our T's and pdocs are people, and therapy is their profession. Of course that doesn't mean we are not important to our T in their life. But just for the sake of their own sanity and to prevent burnout, a lot of T's (and other professionals that work closely with clients) compartmentalize different people from different areas of their lives in order to avoid their professional and personal lives from overlapping too much. I'm sure depending on the personality that some are more diligent about this than others, but for many it's an important strategy to keep a healthy balance in their lives.