What are the appropriate boundaries inside and outside of Therapy

Hey RT! I see where you're coming from and while it's totally up to you if you want to avoid (or in this case, not avoid) your therapist if you saw her outside of therapy, it is also totally up to your therapist how she chooses to interact in these kinds of situations outside of therapy.

Boundaries are not only about what's okay/not okay with you, but what is okay/not-okay with her. I think, given the dynamic of the relationship between therapist and client, it's more than likely that even if you would want to have a friendly conversation with your therapist in a social situation, she might feel less inclined to do so given the strict boundaries of the therapist/client relationship. So I think if this issue is important to you and you are unclear about her boundaries, it might be a conversation worth having with her at some point so you both can be on the same page.

Wishing you the best!

You said you'd want to have a long conversation about shared interests and set up a potential meeting at an event if you were both planning to attend.

I believe you may have additionally mentioned something about sharing a drive.

Those are things friends do, not therapists and clients.

I don't disagree with this. I don't see a need to feign ignorance or not speak with someone, but that's different than what you've said at other places in this conversation, and different than some of the scenarios you've described. I just suggest you try not to expect a therapist to be willing, able, or interested in having a long conversation with you outside of the paid therapy hour. If you do, it's just going to set you up for an unrealistic understanding of what you're doing in therapy and disappointment when your expectations don't fit reality.

Are you focusing really hard on this scenario because you're worried about getting back into therapy? Do you think this might be a fantasy diversion?

What I mentioned was that if we know we are going to be at a certain type of social event, especially one that is small in scope (such as the event which I will be going to this weekend) that I think that it is OK to socialize some at the event, in the same way that I socialize with people who I have never meet before there (or in some cases people who I only see once a year at the trade show and there are a few of them who I see year after year).

The drive would only be to an intimate type gathering (a place where all boundary lines are temporarily put aside) should both of us want to go but not have anyone else in the immediate area who also wants to go (believe you me you will have those circumstances when it comes to intimate type gatherings). Intimate gatherings are very unique and rare and should be treated as such. In other words I don't think that it would be appropriate for my Therapist and I to drive together to the motor-sports trade show because I don't think that it fits the scope of it however I do think that it is appropriate to meet up at the show to discuss how we are enjoying it.

Exactly. Those scenarios describe things friends do, not therapists and clients. Boundaries don't get temporarily put aside with good therapists.

Well like I just said every situation is different, no matter how you want to look at something meeting at the supermarket IS NOT the same as meeting at an intimate type gathering (such as burning man) and these are the 2 extreme points with many other places in between, such as a social gathering like the motor-sports trade show.

I want to say that I hear you but I really don't, at very intimate gatherings any and all boundary lines ARE put aside (I can tell you from experience) if you have never been to one yourself you really can't say otherwise.

Right, and in none of those places on the spectrum would what you hope for be likely to happen. You want to feel friendly with a therapist very much, that's clear from this and prior threads, and it's problematic for you. I wonder if it's distracting you from the actual therapy, I know getting back into therapy has given you some things to worry about after the last course ended.

I hope things smooth out for you.

It's like the song says... you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need.

Yes, I've been to several.

I do hope that things can go well however I am not going to just sucker into a generic one-size-fits-every-situation kind of mentality because that is not how I think things should be approached.

I apologize. I know I wrote I'd back out of this...I just had one question:

If you didn't want any of our opinions, why ask "What are the appropriate boundaries inside and outside of therapy"...?

I think you knew the answer all along. I think you were hoping for some validation (which btw you got a lot of just not the exact kind you wanted). When you use the word "appropriate" your asking for the generic one size fits all answer. Only your T will be able to give you the specific answer. At the very least...look at all the support people are.trying to give you here. You've gotten much more than many others who post for help.

Maybe just take a day and let everything sink in. The reality is: we don't want you getting hurt.

I asked that because I wanted to know what everyone thinks are appropriate boundaries for Therapy-Client relationships vs. what I think the appropriate boundaries are, I have heard several different people's opinions on here and I will take all of them into account when I meet with my new Therapist next Wednesday to discuss what we think appropriate boundaries are, it is entirely possible that the boundaries which we agree to will be completely different from the boundaries that I think are appropriate right now.

As I said in an earlier post it is entirely possible for my viewpoints on appropriate boundaries and ethics to change (as they have before with certain things).

I find it hard to believe that state laws would be suspended. I have a state license, and it doesnt say anywhere that it doesnt apply at certain types of gatherings. I am bound to it. If i am a naughty girl, they can take my license away, period.

I do sort of understand you (but at the same time I don't think that your license says that you can't have any communication with someone who you may work with).

Honestly I have a lot to think about so it might be a good idea for me to take some time away from this thread, I do appreciate all of the support and suggestions that I have gotten from everyone and I will definitely take all of them into account at my first meeting next Wednesday.

I can tell you, from experience, that SOME boundaries are put aside at festivals like Burning Man and some are NOT. For example, laws are not put aside. In my state, in the US, a therapist could lose her license for doing certain, typical Burning Man activities with her clients. A therapist would certainly lose professional respect (and probably some of her other clients) if it were widely known that she "hung out" with clients at something like Burning Man.

You also have to consider that therapists must have boundaries that are somewhat consistent across the board. Of course there are some differences depending on the client's needs but, largely, therapists have consistent boundaries in order to protect themselves and all of their clients. If a T had such boundaries that she socialized with clients at festivals, it would probably make a lot of her clients feel very unsafe and it would make others very jealous if they knew T socialized with "other" clients but not with them. It would also create a HUGE problem for clients with attachment issues/obsessive tendencies. It could certainly invite/enable an obsessive client to perform intrusive behaviors. And, on the other end of the spectrum, it could terrify a client with a history of abuse and boundary violations by authority figures. You may think "oh, other clients won't find out about what T does with others"-- but they do. I can tell you first hand that word of mouth is a powerful thing-- things get around. If I discovered that my T hung out with another client at something like Burning Man, I would probably stop seeing my T because her lack of boundaries would make me feel unsafe. I think a lot of other clients would feel the same way. In order to do good therapy with the majority of her clients, a T has to keep certain boundaries in check for both her safety and her clients' safety.

What several posters have asked you directly-- but you have not responded to-- is the following question: "What if your T simply does not want to socialize with you?" Take the ethical question out of it for a minute. What if your T simply says "I don't enjoy having conversations with clients outside of the office. If I see you at an event, I do not want to say more than "hi." Doing so would be taking my time away from the event and from the people I am there to see; I'm simply not interested in having those conversations." What would your response be? Can you understand and respect that a T may not want to talk to you socially? Does it make a difference when it's about ethical questions or "shoulds" and when it's about a T's own preferences/enjoyment? If your T does not want to socialize with you if she happens to see you at these events, do you think she should do so anyway because YOU want her to? Or do you agree that if she doesn't want to, then she shouldn't? If boundaries are 2-way streets, then doesn't your T's opinion matter? Think about it like this: In order for two people to have sex, BOTH people have to consent. One person wanting it does not obligate the other person to do it. There can be no negotiation if one person isn't interested. That's how it is with boundaries. If a T says "no socializing out of the office; that's my boundary"-- then that has to be respected. In order to socialize outside of the office, BOTH of you would have to want it. So unless she ALSO wants that kind of contact, then it isn't up for negotiation. Of course, you can talk about your feelings around it, your desires, your views, etc-- but you can't actually have the contact.

I hope you find what you need, and I do empathize with you here. Again, this a very worthwhile conversation to have with your T. They are the one who will give you the insight that you need to truly grasp the boundary issue. It is complicated and really unlike any other professional relationship.

RT I'm late to this thread but to me this sounds like a very elaborate fantasy (à la trapped on a desert island with someone). I can relate, I have often wondered what it would be like to be seated next to my T on a plane for example. And while both of our scenarios are within the realm of possibility, both are very unlikely.

I think the actual question about boundaries is less important than the question of what this scenario means to you and why you're dwelling on it. You started a very similar thread a few months ago and outlined a very similar scenario about seeing your T at a concert or festival. What's this about? What would you like to get from attending a concert with your T? If you let your imagination run wild and the boundaries could be entirely up to you, what would happen in your Burning Man scenario? Do you wish you had a girlfriend with whom you could drive to an intimate gathering? Do you need "permission" from us here on PC to have this fantasy and to assure you that it's entirely realistic and okay to socialize with T at a music festival?

Because you're allowed to have the fantasy. You're allowed to have any fantasy. Some of them might be possible and appropriate to act on and some not but you are still allowed to dream. Your dreams don't have to involve realistic scenarios or appropriate boundaries. And you don't need anyone's approval to have them.

Sorry to interrupt this conversation, but I don't think all the recent boundary discussion points really account for everyone's experiences, and as most agree, it's not either/or-there are many grey areas.

My T was a good, ethical therapist but after practicing over 35 years, he allowed for more flexible boundaries with certain patients. I've noticed some Ts tend to "march to their own beat" when they get older and more confident and wiser in their decision making. As the years go by, they might gravitate more and more away from theory, the rules, and what they learned in training, and move more towards what they know in their heart is best from experience with treating different people over the years. A T who has seen and heard it all, treated 1000s of all types of people over the years, has listened to angst caused by every possible evil human beings are capable of, and who has learned from every good and bad decision s/he made over a span of decades...seems to have a sort of serene aura about him; a composed posture of kindness.

He doesn't take on new patients who couldn't afford treatment, but he has treated a patient who had a serious mental illness for free-for years-after she lost her insurance because she was too poor for treatment. He has treated me for free when I had a major hardship in the past.

He invited me to a festival before, and now that he is my x-t, he said he and his wife would be glad to drop by at a nearby restaurant if I was in town (we actually never did yet). I was usually overly cautious about intruding on his boundaries, so it actually helped me in terms of other relationships in my life. Now if I made demands that he change his boundaries and meet me outside of therapy, I probably would have been making how I feel dependent upon whether he did/didn't do this; so, loosening things up probably wouldn't have been good for me. But at this point, my sense of self was so much stronger. I actually credit this self-development to the fact that he kept solid boundaries in place, in many ways, for the most part. Through this, I learned that his interpersonal boundaries had nothing to do with my worth.

He is in his 70s, has never been sued for malpractice, and has never had an ethical complaint filed against him. You can tell that he is just really a true professional who views what he does as a "calling", rather than a job. He enjoys his patients and would never view them as a "job" and would not associate them with unpleasantries when running into them at social events. He has joyous feelings about his patients. No this does not include everyone and all the time-he needs his space like everyone else. I told him that I would prefer he say hello and talk to me in the case we met somewhere by chance, regardless of who I was with.

I have not seen him in many months, but I guess I feel the need to defend him after reading some of the posts here. I also realize none of you knew my T, and that my experience is as unique as anyone else's.

Terroni, I hope this looong thread is helping you, but I just want to add to or reinforce what some others have said-that Ts have different boundaries and often for different patients. It's just difficult sometimes for us as patients to have the ability to know if certain boundaries can help or harm us (or the T) in the long run. So what feels good and right with your T might harm you in the long run. I have no idea if this is the case with you, but like others have said, it's always a possibility with any of us.

Well said. I agree wholeheartedly.

Thanks for all of these kind and important words and I think that I am really starting to see everyones point of view and I think that I am over-thinking things that are highly unlikely to occur but as FavoriteJeans has stated I just really want them to occur. I think that in my mind want to have a relationship with my Therapist that I know can never happen. I think that when I go to my first session next week I should probably just mention this briefly and realize that most situations are so unlikely to ever occur that its best not to think about them at all. I think that in the end it is the condition that I have that causes me to over-think and over-analyze things to the point that most regular people would have been driven mad.

But to tie everything together I was just watching "Step Brothers" on FOX where of course one of the characters develops a crush on his Therapist

I think this is exactly where your confusion is. T/client boundaries are not determined by the event or by anything external. Boundaries are established internally. Boundaries are a reflection of individuals in relation to one another. Your T is your T regardless of the surroundings, and the boundaries which govern how she relates to you are hers to establish. Just as your boundaries with her are yours to establish. The conflict comes when one of the internal boundaries violates the other. Then, a negotiation has to happen. Good clinical practice tends to dictate that the T is responsible, ethically and legally, for upholding boundaries in the best interest of the therapy. Altering the boundaries in order to engage in the ways you've described would be commonly seen as not beneficial to the therapy. And while you may agree with MUE's T's statement, it's worth noting that MUE has posted about her discomfort with how that statement has at times been enacted in a dual relationship (something about buying her hand-made jewelry).

Pushing the establishment of the boundary onto external scenarios has the effect of objectifying your T because it discounts or supersedes her internal boundaries. When someone is objectified, they are disrespected.

This endless spinning of scenarios seems very counterproductive because it buries the issue of recognizing and respecting and accepting a T as an individual and professional with rightful ownership/control of their behavior. The question that still remains to explore is why it is so important to you to maintain this kind of control?