[stopdog]

This puzzles me. Why do you believe or get reassurance from what a therapist tells you if you would not believe it if you said it to yourself? Or why believe them in general? Why give them power? Why do you think them righter than you or others are?
I am struck by how many like it when the therapist tells them they are good or okay or compliments them whatever. Or when the therapist gives advice. Or when one of them thinks they are modeling something for a client. Why do you think the therapist is the correct thing follow or be reassured by rather than yourself?
If not belief, but reassurance- again- why be reassured by a therapist? How does it work differently than just reassuring yourself?

[gayleggg]

I trust my therapist to be able to look at things more objectively. It takes me a while to develop that level of trust, but I've had a couple of excellant therapist.

I am looking for an outside, more objective, better informed opinion. I do not necessarily believe him and we have quite a few disagreements. He doesn't even ask me to believe him anymore; he just asks me to carefully consider what he has to say.

I don't always believe what a therapist says. In fact, generally, my beliefs are so set in stone (especially when completely irrational) that it takes years of therapy for me to break down those walls of irrational belief so I can finally discover the truth about myself. Notice, nowhere in there did I say I take what my T says about me as truth just because he says it. What I do though is perhaps take it under consideration, very tentatively, and using my own faculties, put up my beliefs against his over time and make my own decision about it in the end.

[Perna]

Sometimes what I say to myself "doesn't work" so I decide to think something else and having someone else's suggestion, hey, if that doesn't work either, what will I have had to lose? I was a worrier and worry is all about an unknowable future and when I get worried now I spend a lot of time either trying to think of practical things to do to lessen the need to worry or I think of alternative scenarios for the future where better things happen, since it is all my imagination. Believing what T says instead of what my imagination says: six of one/half dozen of the other? When I know what is right/works for me, I don't need others' input.

[someone321]

Hmmm, I think I cannot say that I believe my T even if I don't believe myself when I say the same thing...

In general, I believe that there are domains in which I know more and better, like science or I'm definitely and expert on myself. On the other hand, my T works for more than 30 years with traumatized people so I definitely take into account her opinions about the process of therapy. Why would she lie to me by saying e.g. based on my experience I've realized that for some people this or that may work...? In these cases I believe her what of course doesn't matter that it would work for me as well... If it doesn't work, I tell her about it, T accepts that and we try something else...

I guess there is another aspect of believing others rather than ourselves... I can tell myself "oh, I am so smart and beautiful" and then I look in the mirror or see how stupid mistakes I do and I definitely do not believe in this sentence anymore... But if others tell me that I'm pretty smart because of this or that or I'm not as ugly as I think, it of course makes me feeling better so if T compliments my skills, I like it, why wouldn't I? I guess, I just like being reassured which doesn't necessarily mean that I don't know it by myself...

[stopdog]

And yet on many threads, many posters relate how good they feel when the therapist says it will be all right, or that the person is okay, or hearing the therapist in their head is a good and not horrifying thing, or other such things. Curious indeed.

[BlessedRhiannon]

Originally Posted by 1914sierra

I don't always believe what a therapist says. In fact, generally, my beliefs are so set in stone (especially when completely irrational) that it takes years of therapy for me to break down those walls of irrational belief so I can finally discover the truth about myself. Notice, nowhere in there did I say I take what my T says about me as truth just because he says it. What I do though is perhaps take it under consideration, very tentatively, and using my own faculties, put up my beliefs against his over time and make my own decision about it in the end.

What Chris said.

Also, I know that some of my ways of thinking are very distorted - for example, the idea that I'm not allowed to be angry and that if I am, I should take it out on myself. I find it helpful to hear a more normalized view of things - anger is normal, I'm allowed to feel it, I don't need to punish myself for feeling angry. I may not immediately believe my T, but I take her words in to consideration, and think about them and see how they might apply to me.

I don't implicitly trust my T, trusting her took years to build up, and we still have disagreements. Not everything she says to me feels right for me...sometimes, if I think on it, I may see that her view is less distorted than my own, and sometimes, I know that she's just off base and I tell her so.

I feel like my T knows me very well, and sees who I really am, so I trust her opinion on most things, because I've taken the time to let her see the real me and she's taken the time to get to know me. My T has a wide array of experiences in dealing with others with similar issues to draw upon when providing feedback; I don't have that same experience. I only have my own experiences and those are the experiences which caused me issues in the first place!

Originally Posted by stopdog

And yet on many threads, many posters relate how good they feel when the therapist says it will be all right, or that the person is okay, or other such things. Curious indeed.

Reassurance that we will get through what we are going through does help. I don't think that has much to do with belief or power as in how you stated your original question. Reassurance is about support and hope, maybe a bit about faith. Not really the same to me as believing something that isn't true or we don't feel is true.

My pdoc once told me he would find a way to help me feel better. I "believed" him, but it really was more about reassurance and hope than belief. It was about support and commitment.

[granite1]

imost definitely do not always believe what my T tells me . when she says things like she would not think I was the most horrible person in the world. my response mostly is that she has no idea who I am and it makes me trust her less .but it is good to hear that there might be hope . I don't want to be as horrible as I feel. last session she asked me what I would think if she didn't believe I was the most horrible person in the world. my response was quite honestly that I would seriously question her sanity . to that her response was to smile and say I think I am quite sane

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by 1914sierra

Reassurance that we will get through what we are going through does help. I don't think that has much to do with belief or power as in how you stated your original question. Reassurance is about support and hope, maybe a bit about faith. Not really the same to me as believing something that isn't true or we don't feel is true.

My pdoc once told me he would find a way to help me feel better. I "believed" him, but it really was more about reassurance and hope than belief. It was about support and commitment.

I added reassurance to my beginning post.

[ListenMoreTalkLess]

I learn at least something from what other people say they observe about me, or think about me. Sometimes I like hearing this; other times I don't.

It's useful for me to think about how my self concept matches up with what others think.

My T is not big on the feedback thing. Most recently, it did help to hear her say "you've been dealing with XYZ rather than avoiding it." Now that is a very fact based statement, not so much open to interpretation as some other things are, such as "you are a good person" or "you are not to blame" or "I think it will all work out for you." I don't think she's ever said any of those things.

I don't see power as an issue in beliefs one way or another. What I choose to believe doesn't give or take away power from anyone else. If anything, I empower myself by willing to consider what others say as a reinforcement to what I believe. And if I change my self concept as a result of what others believe or if I decide to work on an issue that others see as problematic, then I am empowering myself to be a better person.

In general, I don't harbor fear of therapists nor do I think that they hold any power over me. I feel strongly attached to my therapist and I know she cares about me, and I would miss her if we had to stop working together. Ultimately, I would just get another one if I still needed help. None of these things mean that I have given any power away to the therapist. Therapy in general has helped me to feel the power that intrinsically is mine or me, and also to be less afraid of others lording their power over me.

Originally Posted by stopdog

I added reassurance to my beginning post.

That helps and really changes the question quite a bit really.

One of the dreadful parts of being clinically depressed is the utter hopelessness one feels. The ability to find hope within oneself becomes completely impossible. That ability is completely lost. What does help sometimes it to find that hope through other people, including perhaps a therapist, when you can't see it for yourself. Sometimes you can cling to the hope others have for you, sort of a life raft so you don't go completely under, until you can finally find the strength to swim to the edge of the pool on your own.

[pbutton]

My ways of behavior and reacting to things often cause me pain. My way of viewing the world is why I have anxiety disorders. I don't blindly follow my T's suggestions, but I am willing to consider and try on his ideas and views to learn what else could work for me.

For me right now, I have to relax and realize I won't be "consumed" if I admit to wanting human connection. Some days it is easier than others. Some days I can take in the reassurance, some days my protective mechanism won't allow it. The days I allow myself to be reassured, I do feel a bit better... until I start fighting the reassurance so that I can "stand on my own".

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by 1914sierra

That helps and really changes the question quite a bit really.
n.

I don't really think it changes the question, but if it helps I can be flexible on it.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by 1914sierra

One of the dreadful parts of being clinically depressed is the utter hopelessness one feels. The ability to find hope within oneself becomes completely impossible. That ability is completely lost. What does help sometimes it to find that hope through other people, including perhaps a therapist, when you can't see it for yourself. Sometimes you can cling to the hope others have for you, sort of a life raft so you don't go completely under, until you can finally find the strength to swim to the edge of the pool on your own.

I have not found the therapist to be useful in this fashion. But I am intrigued that others do.

Originally Posted by stopdog

I don't really think it changes the question, but if it helps I can be flexible on it.

It does change it though. Leaving the idea of reassurance out of your original question put the focus on believing a therapist and giving them "power" which appears to be a very negative thing for you. You didn't imply at all that you were discussing anything but matters of provable fact, right or wrong. Reassurance isn't at all about provable fact or right or wrong. Two completely different ideas.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by 1914sierra

It does change it though. Leaving the idea of reassurance out of your original question put the focus on believing a therapist and giving them "power" which appears to be a very negative thing for you. You didn't imply at all that you were discussing anything but matters of provable fact, right or wrong. Reassurance isn't at all about provable fact or right or wrong. Two completely different ideas.

I understand we disagree on this. I do put reassurance under belief. It seems you do not. It is not a problem that we disagree on it.

[Lauliza]

First I'll say that I wouldn't listen to the advice or hang on the word of just any therapist or pdoc. I've had experience with some whose advice I totally ignored and had to seek out other opinions.

I think some people have problems that are beyond the scope of what they can handle themselves and don't have a support system to help through difficult times. I think a T is the best resource to help someone get their life back on track when they don't have any other resources, or they've all been used. It can be so helpful to hear an opinion that is not based on emotion but on pure objectivity. Even when the advice a T gives isn't rocket science, a good T can communicate it in a way that others can't when emotions get in the way.

I tend to think it's similar to criminal law and why there are lawyers who handle cases. If criminals were tried by family members of victims, imagine what would happen. Some wouldn't care about the accuracy of the facts at all they'd just want revenge. So you have a lawyer who has no emotional connection and is able to clearly analyze the evidence/facts as they are presented. I know it's not a perfect system but that's the intent at least.

In therapy, the T doesn't know you, so they can offer advice based soley on the information you provide and nothing else. This is a pretty unusual relationship- to share the deepest secrets with a person who has no emotional ties and can see from an unfiltered viewpoint. Of course this seems to change over time, so it's never a perfect science. Still I think it does serve the purpose pretty well and helps a lot of people. Also because they've had an education in the way the mind works and experience with a lot of people who've been in similar circumstances. So, they've seen what does and does not work. Often times the most effective solutions to problems go against one's natural instinct and you wouldn't even think to try the simplest things.

As for reassurance, until my most recent experiences with my pdoc and T, I've never gotten comfort from a T telling me everything was going to be ok. If I felt depressed, I felt depressed. As a child I looked to my T for adult guidance in a sense since I didn't get much at home, but that is a totally different therapy relationship. Children need models so if they don't get it from home, therapy or therapeutic programs can help provide that. Now as an adult with issues like social anxiety, ADD, maybe a little Asperger's, I look for reassurance that I am handling things in my life well - as a parent, a student, a professional. But that's because I've never had help with a lot of these skills until now, so I look to them as a mentor in an my areas of weakness. But I am very specific in what I seek out from my pdoc and T since I am lucky and have a great support system of friends to turn to. I believe many people do not, and to them their T becomes the entire support system.

Originally Posted by stopdog

I have not found the therapist to be useful in this fashion. But I am intrigued that others do.

Have you ever been clinically depressed? (I don't mean that in any snarky way; you just don't reveal much about yourself so I have no idea what your issues really are or have been.) If you have, then you probably understand what utter hopelessness feels like and that it leaves a person unable to find reassurance within themselves. So having someone else like a therapist (could also be a friend or family member or someone else significant) remind you that all is not lost, that things will improve, that there are options out there, may be all that stands between you and completely giving up which can literally be deadly. While reassurance from other people may not be helpful to you for some reason, for most people that kind of reassurance and support enables them to keep hanging on through that hopelessness. It helps us survive.

[stopdog]

I don't think the lawyer analogy quite correct in what I am asking about. As a criminal defense attorney - I spend a great deal of time trying to get the facts spun a certain way. It is the jury and judge who determine whether they believe the defense or the prosecution's version of the facts. And the prosecution most assuredly does try to paint the facts as luridly as possible without going over the rule on ethics (and some don't worry about that either).

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by 1914sierra

Have you ever been clinically depressed? (I don't mean that in any snarky way; you just don't reveal much about yourself so I have no idea what your issues really are or have been.) If you have, then you probably understand what utter hopelessness feels like and that it leaves a person unable to find reassurance within themselves. So having someone else like a therapist (could also be a friend or family member or someone else significant) remind you that all is not lost, that things will improve, that there are options out there, may be all that stands between you and completely giving up which can literally be deadly. While reassurance from other people may not be helpful to you for some reason, for most people that kind of reassurance and support enables them to keep hanging on through that hopelessness. It helps us survive.

The woman has once said she thought I might be and then said all sorts of other stupid things about what to do and what she thought. I quit seeing her for a break and everyone else until I got myself better. When I went back, she said she had been worried about me. I again took a break. I don't want that sort of thing from a stranger.

Plus I guess I don't really see therapists as all that objective. They still filter information through who they are and how they have been trained and what they believe. It has been one of the fun parts of seeing two of them and interviewing a great many others.

[feralkittymom]

I guess if I could have told myself the things he would tell me, I wouldn't have been in therapy. For me, I didn't have the capacity to tell myself much of anything; I did hear endlessly my parents' messages to me, which were painful, but I believed them because I had since childhood.

I think the question for me wasn't about belief, but rather about hearing. About letting the words into my consciousness at all. And that was only possible within the context of a trusted relationship. The power wasn't within my decision to believe, but rather his enactment of the messages. Telling me I deserved to be respected would have meant very little; his enacting his respect for me meant a lot.

[Lauliza]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I don't think the lawyer analogy quite correct in what I am asking about. As a criminal defense attorney - I spend a great deal of time trying to get the facts spun a certain way. It is the jury and judge who determine whether they believe the defense or the prosecution's version of the facts. And the prosecution most assuredly does try to paint the facts as luridly as possible without going over the rule on ethics (and some don't worry about that either).

I understand what you're saying since my sister is a criminal defense lawyer too. I was just using it to show the intent of using the lawyer - unemotional attachment and objectivity - and not what they actually practice in real life. I know the two can be quite different.

[unaluna]

I wasnt raised by Roy Rogers and Dale Evans. More like Bonnie and Clyde. Not the best role models for success in the adult world, and not the best caretakers of children. So "honoring my parents" is problematic for me, to say the least. They taught me a way to go, a way to be in the world, that was convenient for them, but does not work for me, but feels so right to me, even as it fails. This calls to mind battered woman syndrome. "I believe my therapist?" i have asked him to help me live as if i HAD been raised better. After this comes scientific method - i have seen results. Better results than with previous ts. Hope this answers your question. And i dont think you can dance by yourself. Thats what my parents made me do. They left me out while they huddled together in secret. Thats just mean.