For a year and a half, I have seen T as a object. And I have been quite content with that. A blank slate for which I can engage in transference and get angry at without judgement.

I think I'm getting %#@&#! tired of seeing him as a object. But not ready to accept him as a person.

Evidence to support this?

My increasing anger and irritation towards him-- perhaps a provocation to break him down into humanness-- most human beings wouldn't be able to handle being treated like that.

Getting very upset in session on Friday, telling him that I have to feel the intensity of the relationship, and he doesn't feel anything in reciprocation. I have no doubt that he feels things along with me in session.. an object would be able to do so, to cater emotion along with me in the here and now. But a real person would feel things towards another person. I believe that the minute I walk out the door, he doesn't give me a thought until the next time he sees me.

I think I might want to see him as human. But I am not ready yet. I don't know what to do because this conflict almost makes it as if I don't even want to deal with him at all anymore.

I think this is stemming a lot from the last session... how I didn't feel as though he was giving me what I needed... the lame, empathetic comments, the perception that I was too intense for him... It all seemed so.... human.

But I didn't like it.

%#@&#! analysts.

He doesn't make himself accessible like that.

[MissCharlotte]

Hmmm Pink, I am trying to understand why you think you don't see him as a human.

I agree that you are probably starting to. To wit, you're post just now, sound like you are talking about a person who you care deeply about. That sounds human to me. Actually you sound about as frustrated with him as I do with my husband. Or, they sound equally distant.

I don't recall whether your T discloses much about himself but if you could engage him in some personal way so that he reveals something, then he might become more human to you.

Is your reluctance just a ruse to push him away?

My T is an analyst also, very confusing, close yet distant simultaneously. Hmmm.

He would never dislcose. I don't think I want him to. I don't want him to be human in that way. I feel like if he disclosed, it would interfere with the relationship. But there are other ways to be human. Ugh, when am I not pushing him away?

something i used to say: the trouble with idealisation is that it tends to lead to devaluation and despair when the object fails to live up to our idealisation.

i used to cringe at that, cause i idealise quite a lot. but... i guess... devaluation is part of the process too.

autonomy. anger and autonomy...

maybe... maybe its partly about your moving into this next phase of your life where you are starting your internship??? need to be feeling autonomous and grown-up and competent right now. anger with t probably facilitates that. so you can go along and do your thing...

maybe... thats why you felt angry with him last session instead of talking to him about your internship? i could be way off base... just a thought though.

> I believe that the minute I walk out the door, he doesn't give me a thought until the next time he sees me.

you don't think he thinks of you at all? i reckon your t thinks of you. my t doesn't think of me, of course... but i reckon your to thinks of you.

> I think this is stemming a lot from the last session... how I didn't feel as though he was giving me what I needed... the lame, empathetic comments, the perception that I was too intense for him... It all seemed so.... human.

> But I didn't like it.

do you feel... disillusioned??? can you tell him about the times when you have felt most connected to him? i know sometimes it can feel like that feeling of connection is something that our therapists give to us, but we actually contribute a great deal to that as well. i'm wondering whether you were kind of holding back / preventing yourself from taking comfort in his words.. maybe... you need to be angry right now?

?

just some thoughts...

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alexandra_k said:
something i used to say: the trouble with idealisation is that it tends to lead to devaluation and despair when the object fails to live up to our idealisation.

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Yes, that's exactly it. For the last year and a half, I had him up on this pedestal... virtually untouchable... then I start getting angry at him.... well how can I get angry at someone who is like a god to me? So then the entire thing crumbles. Very similar to the relationship with my dad-- only I refuse to let him know if I'm angry with him-- for fear of the image and the relationship crumbling. I can't see a middle ground-- in my mind, it is impossible for me to hold multiple feelings for someone at the same time... the relationship has to be ideal or destructed.

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you don't think he thinks of you at all? i reckon your t thinks of you. my t doesn't think of me, of course... but i reckon your to thinks of you.

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A couple sessions ago, he was like, "You know after you left last week, I was wondering..." And I said, "Well, how long after I left? Because if it was 2 seconds, then that's by defaut-- but if it was, let's say... an hour... then I"ll be satisfied." (God, I am pathetic). Of course, he didn't tell me the exact time in which he thought of me, but I'm thinking it was more at the 2 second mark.

I didn't care what the hell he was wondering. I don't even remember. I didn't even hear him. It was the fact that he admitted to wondering, that caught my attention.

i am feeling like there is no emotional attachment on his part. i mean, i'm not looking for him to admit that he can't live without me (though it would be nice). i just want to know that there is some emotional reciprocation, but not solely in the form of empathy. am i making sense?

it relates to my usual pattern of living in extremes:
me=so much attachment i could die
him=no emotional attachment and wouldn't care if i dropped off the face of the earth tomorrow

i told him last week how i feel the same way about my husband. cause my husband is real independent. and with my attachment issues, of course the emotional weight of the relationship is somewhat skewed. so no matter what he tells me, i always feel that if i disappeared, husband would just move on with his life.

i hate. i hate. i hate being this way.

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do you feel... disillusioned??? can you tell him about the times when you have felt most connected to him? i know sometimes it can feel like that feeling of connection is something that our therapists give to us, but we actually contribute a great deal to that as well. i'm wondering whether you were kind of holding back / preventing yourself from taking comfort in his words.. maybe... you need to be angry right now?

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Yeah, I feel disillusioned. I think it would be the natural reaction to idealism crashing down.

as far as connection, I want to tell him about the little things... you know, how Yalom talks about how clients remember the little things... I want to tell him, but I get embarrassed... don't want him to think I notice stuff like that... like it's a big secret, and he's the only therapist who hasn't realized that clients notice this stuff, lol. i want to tell him that i felt connected when i saw the look in his eyes... i want to tell him how much i love when he crosses his legs, leans back in his chair, touches his goatee and looks so damn engaged with me... i want to tell him.

i definitely need to be angry now. i can feel that my anger is the necessary kind... essential to the relationship... a phase in the process that needs to be worked through.

I had this chat today with T also. That i'm begining to understand what real relationship really is, its me and her sitting in the room communicating. Its not her the "fantasy" woman that will eventually reveal just that to me, rescue me, take me home. It will never be anymore then what wI am are already experiencing. But what I am experiencing may not be the perfect fuzzy mummy, but a genuine mature adult that has learnt to care for me as a valued human being and trys never to let me down and gives our theraputic relationship the best of professionalism that she has to offer. I just have to bit by bit, allow the fantasy to go and take hold of what is there. I think the transistion stage is hardest. For a while there it feels like I'm groping for the light switch unsure of where it is. But knowing it is there in reality. Just no one ever taught me that the moments in the darkness are ok, they're safe.

[SecretGarden]

Nice post Mouse.... I have to depend on that as that is what I am there for.

I do not tend to think he would like me outside the office... but that is my own projection perhaps mainly for my physical attributes. Otherwise I think he might like me.

We had an interaction last week when I said something about him and he said...see you do know something about me...or somthing like that.

But ultimately, I have to depend on what Mouse says though that sometimes is a liberating thing and sometimes makes me feel inadequate. Both.

[withit]

Pink, is your t a strict psychoanalyst? It seems that is what you needed up until now...a blank slate upon which to transfer and work through issues....

There seems to be a shift....you want the human component....you want to know he cares.....about you....

I don't know if a strictly psychoanalytical t will give you that...but he most definitely will engage with you on an analytical plane....analyze your desire to have him be human....to have him care....about you....

Personally, I couldn't work with a t with a strict psychoanalytic approach. I need that human touch, the human connection....heck, I'm human after all!

Do you have relationships irl that provide that human connection? Would it interest you to analyze why it is you want 'him' in particular to show you his human side?

[sunrise]

pink, I already think you are seeing him as human. You proved to yourself how he can't read minds, when he left you the phone message that was not the perfect one you wanted to hear. He's just a human without special mindreading powers! Same thing with his less than "perfect" response in therapy last time, when he gave you the stock empathy responses. He's not the perfect therapist, he's just human. I think you have a lot of "evidence" for this. Plus, he has thought about you outside of session before. Didn't he tell you once that he was reading some book/poem or other and thought of you, that you might like it?

pink, does your T encourage your idealization of him? Or does he try to set you straight on that?

[SecretGarden]

I do not think that Pink is quite there yet....but she is getting there and she is pissssssssed about it. LOL.... that he is human.

xoxo

excuse me if my take on this is wrong Pink.....

[SecretGarden]

I am so pissed at the world right now and would like to yell a bit myself... and I am not sure that I want to see him as TOO human as I would like to yell right now.... at him and everybody in the world. I suppose I would like to yell at everything he represents...and hope that I do not hurt 'him."

I hate this.

[MissCharlotte]

(((Secret)))

(((Pink)))

(((All of us)))

To err is human to forgive divine.

I take it back screw forgiveness.

Is our desire for a human side a desire for friction in a relationship?

[SecretGarden]

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Is our desire for a human side a desire for friction in a relationship?

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lately it seems this way....and I do not like me when I am like this universally. I feel like I need to huddle up like a turtle in the shell. Emploding.... exploding... seem to be my way these days. It is like I must....by damned... funny and ... not so funny.

Off to water aerobics...maybe that will help...

[lauren_helene]

Hi Pinksoil, I read some of this and my initial thought is that I agree. I want humanness too. I said something similar to my T once that his saying 'it is better to feel the pain between sessions' was easy for him to say.

As he trots off to the next client!!! My T used to be more empathetic and I feel now he's almost 'trying to kick babybird out of the nest'...

I had to inject some humor here. I use that phrase above when I talk to my brother...he's 35 and still lives at home...

[PetulantWolf]

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mouse_ said:
I. I just have to bit by bit, allow the fantasy to go and take hold of what is there. I think the transistion stage is hardest. For a while there it feels like I'm groping for the light switch unsure of where it is. But knowing it is there in reality. Just no one ever taught me that the moments in the darkness are ok, they're safe.

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I needed this. I need to tape it to my monitor when Im emailing my T like an obsessive loser...thank you for this. the reality of it sucks though. Im not there yet...maybe if I had more "real" people in my life.