transference in the hair

Do you mind taking your morally judgementive post away from my space, thanks?

I have not put down anyone. I merely challenged views that most of you are too tightly gripping on to to even challenge or defend.

Morally, throwing transference or energy at an innocent party is not right. No matter what 'oh my therapist told me not to be guilty about my emotions' perspective you might come from.

All I am saying is that if you're putting that stz out there, then you're getting it back. So I am not surprised ... that some people are in the state they are in.

Now, I have said my piece, please do not reply or PM me, this forum to me is pretty BS and I shall leave you to worship your 't'. Seeing as they are such 'intrinsic' parts of your life. I think it's great, it probably keeps more of your negativity out of the world at large.

Read up on karma perhaps?

I just could never through something that might be negative at a stranger. I suppose I'll never understand why you can.

Good luck with that eh ...

peace to you. thanks for visiting psychotherapy.

have a good day!

:>

> I am very conscious of energy transference ... 'stealing energy' ... it is part of my belief system.

Okay.

> The way PS describes her experience is to me, morally wrong.

> I think it is selfish to not own that sort of emotion, especially when it is impacting on someone else. And whether you like it or not, energy does.

> It doesn't surprise me really ... it's creating conflict for yourself at the end of the day.

> Me, I prefer to give good energy and thus, I receive it

And let me ask you (very very gently)...
What kind of energy are you putting out there with your post right here? What kind of energy are you putting out to pinksoil?

Transference can be both positive and negative. Positive transference can involve our seeing others as benevolent and kind and can facilitate trust and liking and a sense of connection and mutuality. That would seem to correspond to your notion of 'good energy'?

Negative transference can be hard... It can be about hard feelings like anger, feeling like one wants to hurt or kill, disapointment, rage, mistrust etc. Does that roughly correspond to your notion of 'stealing energy'?

I guess where I come from is that every emotion has a function. I'm a bit of an evolutionary biology adaptationist, I guess. Sometimes, because of our early experiences we aren't so well able to use these feelings for good, however. The more one denies one has the feelings the more the feelings are likely to come out in an explosion.

When you condemn pinksoil for 'stealing energy' I guess I wonder how you feel about the 'stealing energy' in yourself. I guess you feel similarly that it is morally and spiritually abhorrent to you.

Now... Imagine you were to post here to share some of that bad energy that you have. Some of those things about you (thoughts / feelings / actions) that you have that you find morally and spiritually abhorrent.

Then imagine how you would feel if someone were to similarly condemn you...

Then imagine how you would feel if other people (honestly) were able to say that they have similar thoughts / feelings / actions at times (so as to normalise your experience) and some words of encouragement to help you be able to transcend them...

Do you see what I mean?

> Good luck to you all in achieving balance

yes. good luck to us all.

ak you are so articulate and eloquent!

have a good day.

off to work.

ECHOES

With regard to the notion of 'stealing' energy from others or imparting our own 'negative energy' onto others...I strongly beieve that firstly, the emotional provocation (the transference) exists. Subconsious schemas are a fact of life.
Second, being aware of it (the subconscious schema) brings it into consciousness.
Third, once one is consciously aware of her/his subconscious it can be explored, teased apart, resolved; and when resolved there is no 'strealing' of 'energy'.
The end result is that I own my own energy. Eh?

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I don't buy it

I am very conscious of energy transference ... 'stealing energy' ... it is part of my belief system.

The way PS describes her experience is to me, morally wrong.

I think it is selfish to not own that sort of emotion, especially when it is impacting on someone else. And whether you like it or not, energy does.

It doesn't surprise me really ... it's creating conflict for yourself at the end of the day.

Me, I prefer to give good energy and thus, I receive it

Good luck to you all in achieving balance

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DSF, maybe you would like to start a thread in the spirituality forum and explain your beliefs about energy and transference of energy there. This is Pinksoil's thread about her transference feelings. Everyone is entitled to feel the way that they feel. Feelings are not right or wrong or good or bad. They just are. We are responsible for how we act on our feelings. If she were to go up to strangers who have this particular haircut and treat them as if they were her therapist, then that could be a problem. She isn't doing that though. All that she is doing is being aware of the feelings that she has and why she has them. That right there is a lot of what therapy is about and what this forum is about.

You, DSF, are entitled to your feelings about what you read on these forums. You are also responsible for what you do with your feelings. How do you think it affects others when you tell them that their feelings are stealing, morally wrong, selfish, etc.? That is invalidating her feelings. Many of us grew up in families that did that, and that is why we now have the struggles that we do. My family used many of those exact same terms, and that is why now I max out on anxiety when I try to express what I really feel. I don't want someone to say that my feelings are wrong, bad, selfish, .... Who would not be hurt by that?

A few weeks ago I met my therapist's sister. Talk about transference! T's sister looks like my T and sounds like her. I felt like asking T's sister for a hug, and was nervous talking to her. I didn't tell her that I felt that way, or that I knew her sister. She probably would have understood, but since T's sister is the clinical director of the doctoral program that I want to apply to, it probably wouldn't be in my best interests to tell her that stuff at this point. Still, the feelings happened and probably will if I meet her again. If I do end up in that program, I'll probably need to mention those feelings and explain where they are coming from, because that would be less awkward. Not right now though. Or I could mention it to my T. Transference happens all the time with all of us. Noticing it and acknowledging where those feelings are coming from is owning our feelings.

All I have stated is that putting that type of energy onto people you do not know is something you should own, not 'feel not guilty about'.

Shrug. Doesn't really bother me one way or another. I have said where I understand it is valid, I have just pointed out a situation where I struggle to accept that it's an OK thing to do. I am not silly, I understand it HAPPENS. But 'not feeling guilty' about it means you're not owning it (and therefore not controlling the energy you're sending out) and that's where it does not sit well with me.

As per usual, there is no room for discussion / debate, so I 'disown' this thread.

Feel free to wipe my posts.

:>

How should one "ownj" those feelings? I think that by recognising the feelings they are owned. No ill will is intended to the individual--well not intentionally. Transference is like that . It is just an interesting connection.

Having felt like the brunt of negative energies in the past I kind of understand your post but I think this is totally different as no will will is intended as in our childhood or whenever we feel people have made fun of us. That indeed is taking positive energies. Our therapy is to teach us to not let that energy be taken by someone else but to be strong within our selves.

Is this any where near what you are thinking?

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drunksunflower said:
All I am saying is that morally and spiritually I have an issue with putting the transference energy onto someone who is essentially nothing to do with you.

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I think you are missing the point of transference. How we interact with our T's, the relationship that builds, the likes/dislikes etc. are exactly the same as we are with everyone else in our life and that includes, as you put it, strangers.

I can definitely see how people we don't know but see can evoke immediately feelings. You mean to tell us that you've never seen someone you thought was hot and wanted to jump on that person?

Well, then you haven't seen Tony Almieda from 24...okay he's not on the show anymore so perhaps Jack Bauer will do?

LOL. I guess I haven't seen too many people who look like my therapist, but I imagine I'd react strongly to it if I did. Recently I was waiting at my eye doctor's office, and I was feeling really anxious. Then I heard one of the doctors talking in the background, and his voice sounded like my therapist's. I immediately felt much calmer. So I guess that was a good effect from transference.

I guess there are lots of things that can trigger some kind of transference. I was once stalked by a stocky guy who had a shaven head. Now, whenever I see someone with similar characteristics, I panic for a minute. I don't know if that will ever change.

Sidony

Wow, what a thread I'll have to put my two cents in.

My analysis:

DSF, your attack on the transference issue is actually an act of transferrence. You probably have, sometime in your life experienced a situation where someone close to you didn't take responsiblity for their actions and that had a negative impact on you. Sound familiar? You probably were not allowed to voice your opinions, to wit, your act of 'disowning' this thread.

Your opinion is welcome as is everyones. Transference is real and nothing to feel bad about. Most people who post on this thread are trying to feel better about themselves (myself included). It is a forum for mutual support. Intellectual and collegial discussion and interaction are encouraged and we challenge one another regularly. I just think there is a way to hold these discussions without hurting one another. So, I think you should keep trying, perhaps in a new thread on the topic of the differences that you perceive between taking responsiblity and ignoring emotions.

On the other hand, if you are hell bent on hurting others or starting a fight, then you should take your transference elsewhere.

With respect to Pink's post,

I love the title!

Like Echoes, I have had similar transference in seeing my parents (both dead), particularly my father, whenever I see a 70-ish man with one of those blue cotton sun hats, glasses and a windbreaker, I think it's him.

As far as my T, I have actually had moments during therapy when i thought he was my brother, not a good thing--I had to tell him and we discussed this.

I haven't experienced it outside of therapy where I thought I saw him but I wish I would.

Cheers,

Sister

I made my post before reading the rest of this loooong discussion. I'll stay out of that one except to say that I think it was off-topic. The discussion is about feelings that people have and what triggers them -- not about whether they should feel guilty about having feelings (something I would never agree with).

Sidony

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pinksoil said:
ok so i'm not even joking about this one. my t has one of those buzz cuts.. like if he grew his hair out, you know he'd be going kinda bald, so he chooses to just buzz it so that it's not noticeable.

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Ha, ha, pink, this sounds like my T's haircut. Ever since I have known him and become so attached, I look more favorably on guys with little hair.

This thread contains so many posts filled with negative energy, mainly from DSF, IMO. I'm not going to comment on those since I am by and large a very positive person.

pink, hope the start of your internship is going well! (((hugs)))

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SecretGarden said:
How should one "ownj" those feelings? I think that by recognising the feelings they are owned. No ill will is intended to the individual--well not intentionally. Transference is like that . It is just an interesting connection.

Having felt like the brunt of negative energies in the past I kind of understand your post but I think this is totally different as no will will is intended as in our childhood or whenever we feel people have made fun of us. That indeed is taking positive energies. Our therapy is to teach us to not let that energy be taken by someone else but to be strong within our selves.

Is this any where near what you are thinking?

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Not really ....

It's more about some of the philosophical / spiritual principles behind what 'transference' essentially does.

And wanting to jump someone hot ummm ... please tell me how that is transference ... lol ...

shrug. I am only 'disowning' the thread cos i feel there is nothing more to be said from my perspective. this is something that people can only educate themselves on

Please let this thread go back to its original topic. DSF, you are more than welcome to start your own thread about transference and the transfer of energy and any other ideas that you have relevant to this forum. Nobody is shutting you down or not allowing you to express yourself. We simply need to keep our posts supportive, particularly to the original poster.

hmmm ....

When I initially read your original post PinkSoil, I was confused about your using the term ' 'transference' to refer to the strong feelings that you felt towards people who physically reminded you of your t.

I've always considered that 'transference' only occurred in a therapy situation, and was when a client reacted to their therapist with the same sorts of thoughts, feelings and behaviours that they experienced towards their parents or significant caregivers in their childhoods. And I thought that you could only 'transfer' feelings from childhood and not adulthood, because the relationship between child and caregiver is fundamental to the way our personalities devlop and how we will relate to significant other people in our adult lives .... whereas even though some of them may be very significant in our lives, our adult relationships just dont tend to have as much influence or long-lasting impact on us as people. And when a person is in therapy, where the t is required to be as neutral as possible and cant reveal too much of themselves, a situation is set up where the client has the space and opportunity to react anhd respond to the t based on their own stuff, rather than anything that t says or does, that influences that client. And seeing as transference is actually encouraged in psychoanalytic therapy, this is the very reason why the t hides alot more of their own unique personality, reactions and responses in their sessions - the t gives them very little to work with, so the client cant help but to react and relate to their t according to what they've experienced in significant past relationships (eg - with our childhood caregivers).

So with this understanding, I didnt think that tranference could occur in everyday situations with strangers that we may see on the street, coz I thought that what was needed was the therapy environment and a probing therapist to set up this transference. I also didnt think that a person could 'transfer' any feelings other than the feelings and reactions that came come from a significant person in their childhood ... for example in your situation Pinksoil, where you are 'transferring' your feelings about an ex-t. I've always thought that transference needed to have a basis in childhood with a significant caregiver, as this is where our personalities, reactions and responses are mostly developed - our childhoods are the foundation of our future development .... and by the time we reach adulthood, our personalities and the way we relate to others, are pretty much already created .... so I didnt believe that transference could be caused by a relationship that was formed in adulthood (like your r'ship with your t Pinksoil) and that this could effect the way a person reacted to strangers.

But this post has given me the incentive to do a bit of research about transference, and just what it actually involves, what situations can create it, and how it can be played out in day to day life. And from my research, it seems that there are a number of different interpretations of exactly what IS transference.

My interpretation of transference, was very similar to a definition of transference in a therapy context, where it says <font color="blue"> "transference refers to redirection of a client's feelings from a significant person to a therapist."</font> Wikipedia - 'Transference'

But I have since learned, that there are broader definitions of transference that apply to a greater range of situations that extend past the context of therapy, and that the process of transference, is actually quite common, and in this view, is defined as - <font color="blue"> "Transference is a phenomenon in psychology characterized by unconscious redirection of feelings for one person to another"</font> Wikipedia - 'Transference'

So ... after all my research, I have learned quite alot about this subject, and it would seem that Pinksoil is quite correct in using the term 'transference' to refer to what she is experiencing in her reactions to strangers who look like her t.

On the other issues, I dont think you can blame someone for how they feel about innocent strangers - 'feelings 'are just that .... feelings! .... and they dont equal acting on these emotions. I believe that its quite normal for someone to repress and retain very powerful feelings about someone who was significant and had a very strong impact on their livesr, and then project/transfer those feelings towards people who remind them of the original person. I think the key to managing all of this, is finding a way to resolve the feelings that are still persisting towards the original person, and then once these feelings are resolved and dealt with, and do not have as great an impact on the person, then I dont believe that the transference should cause any more problems for that person.

Good luck with it Pinksoil.

Interesting post! I realized I was a little unclear on the definition of transference too. I guess I go with the broader one.

Here's another instance I thought of (this doesn't involve my therapist). There's this guy at work that I like a lot. I've always been favorably disposed toward him, even before I'd barely even had a chance to speak to him. I finally figured out why -- he looks and sounds a lot like a guy I used to be in love with. When I see him, I'm really nice to him because I look at him and see the guy I was once in love with. Fortunately, being favorably disposed toward someone is good for the work environment.

Too bad the guy at work isn't available (alas, he's engaged) or I'd want to date him!

Sidony

i find this part here really interesting:

> 'not feeling guilty' about it means you're not owning it (and therefore not controlling the energy you're sending out) and that's where it does not sit well with me.

sometimes people distinguish between primary and secondary emotions. there are lots of different ways that people have drawn the distinction, but i'll go with Linehan's distinction here.

Linehan draws the distinction between primary and secondary emotions as follows: Primary emotions are automatically triggered by certain stimuli (typically external, i think. so, feelings one has when one sees someone who looks like ones therapist, for example). Secondary emotions are responses that we have to these primary emotions. While primary emotions are automatic (hence not particularly susceptible to 'cognitive intervention' or our trying to talk ourself out of them) secondary emotions are not quite as automatic and so they can be more affected by the cognitive judgements that we make.

E.g., we see someone who looks like our therapist and we have a primary emotional response (anger or love or whatever). we then make a cognitive judgement about the emotion we are experiencing (oh my god experiencing that primary emotion just there is wrong / right / good / bad etc). the judgement that we make then affects our secondary emotional response (amusement, shame, etc).

when one has an emotional response (both primary and secondary) one usually has associated action urges. if one feels angry one might have urges to hit or make snappy comments, for example. the actions aren't inevitable responses to the emotional experience, however. we can inhibit (prevent) behaving in accordance with our emotion (though perhaps not perfectly to be sure).

some people use secondary emotions of shame (for example) to try and help inhibit the action urges associated with their primary emotions. shame tends to result in head hanging, avoidance, lack of action. it kind of is an inhibitory emotion and some people learn to be rather judgemental about the primary emotions they experience because they are afraid of acting out on them.

the trouble with repeatedly using shame to inhibit action is that shame can be fairly distressing in itself. the judgements involved in triggering our shame response can be fairly derogatory (e.g., 'i'm such a morally abhorrent person' etc) and shame can have a lot to do with anxiety (fear that others will judge us negatively / find us unacceptable) and depression (coming to believe that we are fundamentally bad / unacceptable).

one doesn't need to use shame to inhibit acting on those primary emotions.

often the fastest way to reduce the intensity of those primary emotions is to accept them (which does not mean that one has to act on them). telling oneself that 'this is an understandable transference response' and not judging oneself (so one is able to remain aware of this without repressing it due to the threat of anxiety / depression) really can be an important step forward for people.

sorry if this is inappropriate for this thread. if it is then would someone be able to move it to a new thread?

does this make sense drunksunflower?

i guess i'm thinking... that you can be pretty hard on yourself at times. (and that might well be related to the anxiety / depression / eating issues). perhaps...

Damn, I am away from PC for one day...

and look what I have started, lol.

There are so many therads that I want to post on tonight....

So I will just give a quick response on this, since I started the chaos by talking about my T's hair, hahaha.

OK so I don't really buy into the negative energy thing. If I see a stranger who reminds me of my T, my unconscious kicks in and I might actually want to jump in the guy's lap and have him hug me. Just like with my T.

Take my neighbor, for example. He sorta looks like my T, so I feel that transference going on. I even get jealous of his wife because she's 35 and he's 50.... so my transference says: I have always been drawn to older men.. not only does she get to be with an older man, but it's a man who looks like my T! This is an unconscious process working--I am transferring because my T isn't the one in front of me.... when I am with my T and I look at his wedding ring, I feel jealous of his wife. In this case, it's my neighbor. Same thing. Doesn't mean I'm going to lurk outside their house with a %#@&#! taser gun, lol.

This is my transference, and I own it.

I am aware of it, and I can process it. Don't know that I'm necessarily ready to talk about this with my T yet, but being aware of it is the 1st step.

I appreciate all of you backing me up. I am not offended by the comments that have been made; rather I welcome the opportunity to argue a couple of points.

However, it does make me a bit uneasy to see someone who often reads/posts on PC claim my posts regarding my T are 'negative.'

Is it because of my honesty? Because I have real emotions and can readily admit when I am pissed off at him?

I see my relationshp with my T as authentic. There is a lot of work to be done. There will be weeks, months, maybe years ahead of getting pissed off at him. Tons of transference. Idealizing him. Devaluing him. Cursing him out. Being infatuated with him. Looking into his eyes in amazement because I have never had anyone be that engaged with me before.

Is it so wrong to want to rub a stranger's head? Maybe he would enjoy it... oooooh yeah.

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alexandra_k said:

i wasn't sure what pink meant by 'jump'.

you mean like jump on screaming and kicking
or you mean like jumping their bones

???

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Something in between jumping in their lap for comfort and jumping their bones.

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i think the buzz cut thing is kinda sexy actually so i have some sympathy with the latter lol.

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So do I. But there's my erotic transference for ya. I was always attracted to men with a good head of hair. Suddenly I find buzz cuts sexy? Hmmm. I suspect if I had a therapist with a mullet, I'd find that sexy, too.

> I suspect if I had a therapist with a mullet, I'd find that sexy, too.

there must be SOME limits to transference, surely

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alexandra_k said:
> I suspect if I had a therapist with a mullet, I'd find that sexy, too.

there must be SOME limits to transference, surely



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Yes, I think we may have found one.

Incidentally, I hate mustaches. You know, when it's just a mustache, no goatee or anything attached. So my last T had a mustache... and wouldn't you know... I start transferring to men with similar mustaches. Lasted awhile, too... until I had a relationship with my current T... so then it moved from mustaches to buzz cuts.

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sunrise said:
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pinksoil said:
ok so i'm not even joking about this one. my t has one of those buzz cuts.. like if he grew his hair out, you know he'd be going kinda bald, so he chooses to just buzz it so that it's not noticeable.

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Ha, ha, pink, this sounds like my T's haircut. Ever since I have known him and become so attached, I look more favorably on guys with little hair.

This thread contains so many posts filled with negative energy, mainly from DSF, IMO. I'm not going to comment on those since I am by and large a very positive person.

pink, hope the start of your internship is going well! (((hugs)))

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I won't say what I think of your comments

It's just not very ... zen ...

:>