[BudFox]

Isn't it a cruel irony that those who are most vulnerable and who have felt distinctly powerless in life, are most likely to end up in long term therapy, which in turn is often a profoundly disempowering experience?

"Far from helping them [patients] to overcome infantile problems, the analyst resubmerges them in an infantile relationship in which it is the analyst who emerges as all-powerful." -Jeffrey Masson

True for me. With my last T, there was initially a subtle power asymmetry of which I was largely unaware. But by the end her power was absolute. And I was powerless like never before. She won, I lost. Her gratifying triumph was my bitter defeat. Shouldn't she have paid me (he asked rhetorically)?

[atisketatasket]

It's also cruelly ironic that those who are already sick are likely to get sicker as a result of their care - bacteria in hospitals, mistakes during surgery, side effects of chemo, etc. Some of this is the purpose of the therapeutic profession - it is meant to serve the vulnerable, and as a result it attracts people who prey on the vulnerable.

But what you're saying is the profession [eta - its methodology] itself at heart is designed to prey on the vulnerable, if I'm reading you right. I don't disagree - if the therapist's approach is going to be to infantilize the patient, it is unbelievably easy to do damage, accidental or not.

[BayBrony]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

It's also cruelly ironic that those who are already sick are likely to get sicker as a result of their care - bacteria in hospitals, mistakes during surgery, side effects of chemo, etc. Some of this is the purpose of the therapeutic profession - it is meant to serve the vulnerable, and as a result it attracts people who prey on the vulnerable.

But what you're saying is the profession itself at heart is designed to prey on the vulnerable, if I'm reading you right. I don't disagree - if the therapist's approach is going to be to infantilize the patient, it is unbelievably easy to do damage, accidental or not.

But that's only true if infantiliziing is their method. My T has always worked to empower me in the relationship.

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by BayBrony

But that's only true if infantiliziing is their method. My T has always worked to empower me in the relationship.

Yes - that's why I said "if the therapist's approach."

[ilikecats]

I think that while the T does hold the power in the relationship, a good T will try to ensure that the client does not feel this powerlessness.

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[stopdog]

I can quit at any time with no explanation, I can tell the woman something or not, I do not have to answer any question, I do not have to do or even consider anything the woman says. I can find a new one, I can see more than one at one time. She only knows what I decide to reveal. She has to stay back, she is not allowed to call me just to chat or come by my house. She does not get to play with me. I don't see the woman as having more power than I do.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

It's also cruelly ironic that those who are already sick are likely to get sicker as a result of their care - bacteria in hospitals, mistakes during surgery, side effects of chemo, etc. Some of this is the purpose of the therapeutic profession - it is meant to serve the vulnerable, and as a result it attracts people who prey on the vulnerable.

But what you're saying is the profession [eta - its methodology] itself at heart is designed to prey on the vulnerable, if I'm reading you right. I don't disagree - if the therapist's approach is going to be to infantilize the patient, it is unbelievably easy to do damage, accidental or not.

Agree that mainstream medicine also victimizes quite regularly, though not in the same way as therapy (affecting sense of self, basic functioning, etc).

I don't think the therapy profession maliciously preys on the vulnerable. Rather its basic nature makes exploitation difficult to avoid. Kinda seems like a T would need to perform miracles or impossible contortions in order to avoid infantilizing and disempowering the most needy or susceptible clients.

[atisketatasket]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I can quit at any time with no explanation, I can tell the woman something or not, I do not have to answer any question, I do not have to do or even consider anything the woman says. I can find a new one, I can see more than one at one time. She only knows what I decide to reveal. She has to stay back, she is not allowed to call me just to chat or come by my house. She does not get to play with me. I don't see the woman as having more power than I do.

I think Bud is saying that those who already are or feel powerless in life or have been rendered such by their experiences are likely to be rendered more powerless in therapy/victimized by the therapy set-up.

That obviously doesn't apply to all clients. Certainly not the Stopdog.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by BudFox

I don't think the therapy profession maliciously preys on the vulnerable. Rather its basic nature makes exploitation difficult to avoid. Kinda seems like a T would need to perform miracles or impossible contortions in order to avoid infantilizing and disempowering the most needy or susceptible clients.

This is how I see it too. Even the most decent people can't completely avoid harming others if they had to operate within the confines of the sick system and follow its rules.

But it is upon each individual professional to confront the system and its flaws as much as they can if they want to preserve their integrity. Each one of us (professionals) makes this choice at each given moment and that choice is our responsibility. After all, any system is created by individuals and while it has a life of its own every person who is a part of it is responsible for how the whole system functions.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by atisketatasket

I think Bud is saying that those who already are or feel powerless in life or have been rendered such by their experiences are likely to be rendered more powerless in therapy/victimized by the therapy set-up.

That obviously doesn't apply to all clients. Certainly not the Stopdog.

Right - I was just saying everyone does not feel that they are not as powerful as the therapist. But I don't tend to go to powerless in general. It can happen of course, but it is not the usual for me. I tend to become more frustrated by their lies, manipulations and opaqueness such that one must go to greater lengths to understand what they are doing at the client. For me, I suppose, I am helped by the refusal to play along until I have understood what they are attempting to do at me.

[atisketatasket]

But aren't the lies, manipulations, and opaqueness an attempt to gain power?

[stopdog]

It may be an attempt - but one does not have to play along -one can thwart their efforts. I, for example, take classes, consult with people at my university, read their articles and texbooks etc.
I see it as a sort of game - fencing match or adversarial proceeding (once the woman wrote me that she was not the enemy - but of course I did not fall for that and pointed out to her ways in which she was - she could not refute my findings). Sometimes I still walk into the trap, but not often now. And I quit a lot at the beginning - every couple of weeks and now I take frequent breaks- that usually made me feel better and gave me time to regroup and go back armed with more knowledge. Plus the woman walks into my traps/completely misreads me and then flounders badly when I tell her how wrong she is- always a happy day when that occurs. Then she gets all pissy and defensive and sort of licks herself like a cat who misses the ledge they were aiming for. It helps that I gave up the idea the woman was going to be useful in both the way she described and in for the reason I started.
I feel I also defeat them by not using them the way they wish to be used. I use them for my own devices and usually don't let the first one talk at all.
Skepticism can be useful.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

This is how I see it too. Even the most decent people can't completely avoid harming others if they had to operate within the confines of the sick system and follow its rules.

But it is upon each individual professional to confront the system and its flaws as much as they can if they want to preserve their integrity. Each one of us (professionals) makes this choice at each given moment and that choice is our responsibility. After all, any system is created by individuals and while it has a life of its own every person who is a part of it is responsible for how the whole system functions.

Thanks, well said. The first paragraph is very relevant to me. It's that combo of basically good person + dysfunctional system that is so deceptively dangerous. Plus maybe also some Ts become so closely identified with the system that they don't really see it anymore.

[Ididitmyway]

Originally Posted by BudFox

Thanks, well said. The first paragraph is very relevant to me. It's that combo of basically good person + dysfunctional system that is so deceptively dangerous. Plus maybe also some Ts become so closely identified with the system that they don't really see it anymore.

Right. But the good person still makes a choice to subscribe to the rules of the dysfunctional system and that choice is on them.

This is not to judge anyone. After all, people need to eat and so they have to make a living somehow, and we don't live in the perfect world where you can just easily quit a job once you realize that it compromises your integrity and find your dream job.

I am no saint myself, I had to succumb to the demands of the dysfunctional system to some extend in order to get my degree and then my license and then to keep employment. But I could only do it to a point. Whenever I could I challenged the rules of the game as much as I could and when it was impossible to stay at a certain place without losing self-respect, I'd leave. If I hadn't had the financial support, maybe I would've stayed longer at the oppressive places, but, knowing myself, it's unlikely. I'd rather struggle financially than to sell my soul.

Again, that's not to say that everyone should do what I did but just to say that I understand what pressures people to play by the rules..But, I think, this could be said about virtually every job and every profession.

Also, in the very beginning of my career I was genuinely unaware of all the crap I would have to face in my personal therapy and in my professional training. The first six months of my first therapy felt fantastic and I was eager to implement my first T's methods and all the theories I learned in school with my own clients. I sincerely believed that was the way to go. I have no idea if it harmed anyone or not. Whenever clients didn't like something I did they'd usually leave so there was no "working through transference" or anything like that. I guess, I was naturally repulsed by this method and didn't use it in my work even though my T used it on me. But I did other stupid things which I won't go into.

But with those clients who were satisfied, we did some good work together and it felt truly fulfilling.

I have to say though that I never worked with anyone for longer than a year. This is another thing I have an aversion to. I don't believe in long-term therapy with the same therapist. Every therapist, as a human being, will have their limitations. I know that from my own therapy. I grew as my therapy proceeded and a year later my needs were different from when I started and, once that happened, I needed to move on and find a new person to work with. The same was with my clients. I never had a problem with any of them leaving when they needed to leave because I knew I had my natural limitations and I could do just so much for each of them.

[MobiusPsyche]

Originally Posted by BudFox

Agree that mainstream medicine also victimizes quite regularly, though not in the same way as therapy (affecting sense of self, basic functioning, etc).

I have to disagree with the last bit, as medical mistreatment does very much impact one's sense of self (am I lying? Am I making this up? Do I just need to suck it up and stop noticing the pain?) and surely one's basic functioning as well.



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[stopdog]

I have found mainstream western medicine to be worse than therapists in terms of god complex ridden practitioners who expect unquestioning obedience and who think they know better than the client about the decisions the client should make.I think therapists are bad at it also, just that the others are worse. Plus they have even more weapons at hand to try and force a client to comply and submit to whatever physical tortures they wish to impose while humiliating and berating a client who tries to get away and then the insurance companies abandon the person because if someone leaves a hospital ama, then insurance won't cover the bill and the medical machinery will hunt the person down and force them into bankruptcy to enforce payment of their absurd costs.

[divine1966]

I never lost any power in therapy. I can talk about whatever the heck I want and I am free not to listen to suggestions and free to quit. I never lost any power

. Now unfortunately there are therapists who enforce dependency and obsession in their clients pretty much making clients unable to function on their own. Those are literally criminal cases. Some of the Ts in read on this site need to be arrested. I do not know what to do about it as it appears clients don't recognize that their therapy is crazy making not any kind of therapy.

I think good Ts should recognize that therapy makes it worse and do no harm maybe refer people elsewhere. Don't know how to fix it though.

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[divine1966]

As about medical cost. I am still in huge amount of debt from the time I had no insurance and had health problems ( only private plan that covered some emergency) so I had to charge everything. I also spend on dental care ( again mostly charge). My insurance only covers 1k but I for example had abscess in my mouth that cost me 3k out of my pocket and i do have insurance! Health care is ridiculous

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[awkwardlyyours]

I think it depends on what the client is going in to therapy for as well as the T's skill and training in handling it.

If one goes in to work on attachment stuff, yeah I'd say it would be rather hard to remember that rationally one can leave at any time. And, in such a situation, I'd imagine that feelings of powerlessness are likely to arise frequently and intensely -- however, although that's a sort of systemic hazard, I'd say that a T who is highly skilled / trained / competent should be able to make it work in a way that doesn't reinforce (or at least minimizes) the client's sense of powerlessness.

But, if one goes in to work on other sorts of issues that don't bring up the same types of early attachment problems, the sense of powerlessness may not ever enter the picture.

The problem of course is compounded by the fact that one may think one is going into therapy for something else altogether and lo and behold, it becomes or turns out to be all related to attachment and then chaos breaks loose -- especially with a less skilled / trained T.

[missbella]

Originally Posted by BudFox

"Far from helping them [patients] to overcome infantile problems, the analyst resubmerges them in an infantile relationship in which it is the analyst who emerges as all-powerful." -Jeffrey Masson

This was true for me too. I most needed to overcome my infantile patterns when I sought treatment, but therapists did nothing but reinforce them.

I learned only later the role of language and non-verbal cues in enforcing social hierarchy in therapy. This dynamic unfolds in many/most relationships, but perhaps most present in therapy where providers employed many strategies--perhaps some unconscious ones--to maintain "authority." I also suspect --based on my reading-- that specific attitudes are embedded in how therapists are trained to talk to and view "the patient"

Two books come to mind: Gaslighting, The Double Whammy by Dorpat, which actually begins by citing some pop linguistic books like Deborah Tannen and Patricia Evans (Verbally Abusive Relationships) to illustrate words-as-hierarchy. This "professional" book only seems around these days at textbook prices.

I also enjoyed Dorothy Tennov's Psychotherapy, the Hazardous Cure, an (I think) overlooked consumer book which explores the subject of the relationship and power. This book was written against a backdrop of second-wave feminism, which I believe enhances it and think its issues would be equally applicable to men in therapy. Though out of print, this one seems readily available and inexpensive. Tennov is better known for her Love and Limerence.

[Petra5ed]

I have been hurt by therapy, but that being said I came into therapy like a walking wound. I feel like a child sometimes around my therapist, in terms of my desires, but I think like an adult now. I am no longer a child and I never will be. That to me is the biggest difference.

Here is the confusing part to me, if you have stuffed all the emotion of a bad childhood, and because of this you are having these unhealthy attachments, then is it the therapist that's pulling the strings and traumatizing you or is it just your issues, and you were already traumatized? I cant hold my therapist accountable for my emotional instability, when he's not the one who abused me, he's not the parent that left me, or the mother that beat me, or anyone who caused me trauma. He is the reflection of all that I wanted and missed as a child. That is painful, but it is what it is.

[missbella]

Originally Posted by Petra5ed

I have been hurt by therapy, but that being said I came into therapy like a walking wound. I feel like a child sometimes around my therapist, in terms of my desires, but I think like an adult now. I am no longer a child and I never will be. That to me is the biggest difference.

Here is the confusing part to me, if you have stuffed all the emotion of a bad childhood, and because of this you are having these unhealthy attachments, then is it the therapist that's pulling the strings and traumatizing you or is it just your issues, and you were already traumatized? I cant hold my therapist accountable for my emotional instability, when he's not the one who abused me, he's not the parent that left me, or the mother that beat me, or anyone who caused me trauma. He is the reflection of all that I wanted and missed as a child. That is painful, but it is what it is.

Frankly, I've observed most human beings capable of occasional childish moments, or neediness or susceptible to domineering leadership. I've seen people forgo judgment or act against their own self-interests under the thrall of a charismatic leader. I see a need a common need for a strong man (or woman), a shaman who holds the secret answers. This seems a pervasive human fantasy.

My particular therapists seemed more than happy to play fantasy-role to my weakest aspects, the infant longing return to a protective, all-knowing parent. Yet in reality I was an adult with a decent job, a house and no major liabilities or self-endangerment beyond my deference tendency and general geekiness. Therapists could have cultivated my strengths. But instead they manipulated my weaknesses.

Originally Posted by stopdog

I can quit at any time with no explanation, I can tell the woman something or not, I do not have to answer any question, I do not have to do or even consider anything the woman says. I can find a new one, I can see more than one at one time. She only knows what I decide to reveal. She has to stay back, she is not allowed to call me just to chat or come by my house. She does not get to play with me. I don't see the woman as having more power than I do.

100% agree. This took me YEARS to discover.

I feel on equal footing with my current therapist, though she does have the advantage of knowing my personal information. It wouldn't take her long to emotionally crush me, if that were her intention. I trust that she won't.

[BudFox]

Originally Posted by stopdog

It may be an attempt - but one does not have to play along -one can thwart their efforts.

For some, though, if the T happens to be offering what the client really really needs -- validation, attunement, understanding -- and is delivering it in just the right way that seems to promise to fill in some massive hole of deprivation from the past, the client might well be hooked and become dependent, regressed, attached. More so if the client has not studied the workings of therapy, and the T has not given sufficient informed consent about what is or will be going on. And even if the client is aware and sees the game for what it is, it's harder to notice such things when you are in the grip of totally consuming feelings and impulses.

[CantExplain]

Therapists might argue that they have to take you back to where you started growing wrong so you can start growing right.

But I agree that there are dangers. That's why the therapist must have absolute integrity, both conscious and subconscious. Subconscious integrity is the most difficult of all.