[chihirochild]

There's some background below if you're interested, but the just of it is that I've been feeling a bit better lately--my SI is not nearly as persistent, I have a bit more energy, I don't spend as much time trapped in my mind/body with thoughts and emotions that make me miserable. Pdoc was attributing this change to therapy, and this conversation followed:

pdoc: "the transition [i moved to a new town, and had to get new shrinks] was difficult, but now you're settled with us [pdoc and t]."
c: "mhmm."
pdoc: "and you've been able to set some boundaries with your parents, even though that was difficult."
c: "true."
pdoc: "do you feel held here?"
c: "no."
pdoc: [genuinely surprised] "no? why not?"
c: "because... well, you're asking me to separate from my parents. and I get why you're suggesting that--they're not healthy people, and they contribute to my depression. but... I don't really know how to say this exactly... but if the apocalypse hit, they are the only people who would care if I were alive or not. the relationship i have with you and [t] is limited. what you're offering does not replace what you're asking me to give up. so no, I don't feel held."
pdoc: "but you seem to be feeling better now that you've set some boundaries with them?"
c: "yes. but maybe I feel better because I've had pretty minimal therapy over the last month and a half. maybe the longer I stay away from shrinks, the better I feel."
pdoc: "but you've been seeing me once a week."
c: "yeah, but usually I have twice-a-week therapy. for the last month and a half it's been nothing or once a week."
[long pause]
pdoc: "that felt like a slap in the face."
c: "aren't you supposed to be impermeable?"
pdoc: "no, of course not--otherwise how could I do my job?"
c: [shrug]
pdoc: "I must have said something that made you angry."
c: "Really? I don't feel angry."
pdoc: "let me think, what could it have been?"
c: "isn't it possible that I said what I said because I believe it to be true?"
pdoc: 'well, yes, but also... timing."
c: "huh. so you think I'm angry because I said something that hurt your feelings?"
pdoc: "mhmm."

So.... I guess my questions are:
1) It was my understanding that the strict boundaries in therapy are set up in part so that the client doesn't have to burden herself with her therapist's wants/needs/emotions. So.... doesn't that mean that when the client says something offensive or hurtful, the therapist doesn't necessarily share her/his emotional reaction?
2) Pdoc has never apologized to me, even though he's done some things that didn't sit well with me. (Super intense --> brush-off, Inconsistency, response to SH) Why the hell should I apologize to him?
3) Did I say that because I was angry? (If not, it seems sketchy that pdoc can take the thinks I say that he doesn't like and attribute them to "chihirochild being angry" rather than "chihirochild has a point.")

halp, pls :/

----------------------------------------------------------------
Background if wanted/needed
Due to a weird insurance sitch, I do therapy with both a t and a pdoc. I see t once or twice a week and pdoc once every two weeks so that I see one or the other of them twice a week. They work in the same office and share info and stuff, so I don't have to repeat myself all the time.

There was a five-week period where I had very little therapy--first I was away for two weeks, and then my t was away for three weeks; during the second three-week period, I saw pdoc once a week. Right after t came back but I hadn't seen her yet, I had a session with pdoc and this is what he and i talked about.

[stopdog]

No. I don't think the client should apologize if a therapist or psychiatrist is being overly sensitive. I find what that guy said as being ridiculous. I did not see anything you said as being offensive or outrageous or hurtful or anything. If the one I hired had gotten all bent out about stuff like what you said, she wouldn't of lasted a week

[SalingerEsme]

Wow that is intense. It actually caught me off guard reading the dialogue that your PDoc said that. It seems like he was very pleased with himself that his therapy plan for you was working, and had no clue you might not view it the same way. It was like a quick role reversal. He seemed to be seeking affirmation and validation from you, and just didnt factor in not getting it. I think this was a truly human moment and his feelings were hurt and he accidentally let his therapist costume fall off. I agree with what you said. My T will push me for horrific memories even when I need to go to work and give me boatloads of empathy and kudos for trusting him, a male T, and in the next breath be like time's up c ya wouldn't want to be ya. Yes, if there was an apolocalpse, that wouldn't be covered in the boundaries.

[toomanycats]

What kind of therapy are you doing?
In psychoanalysis, yes, the therapist (analyst) would not share their emotional reaction.
In basically all other forms of therapy, the therapist would certainly share their reaction. That's part of the therapy: we are free to say whatever, but we also learn what kind of reactions those things we say cause in other people. It's safe to do that in the therapist's office.

I don't think you should apologize, but I do think you should look at this from another angle: your therapist received what you said as anger. You did not feel that you were feeling or expressing anger. That's curious and something to look at. Is this a frequent thing? That you send anger signals without consciously meaning to? What were you feeling instead of anger? Where else might this be happening in your life?

Your interaction here is so so similar to my experiences with my therapist. And, I've learned a lot by being curious about hurt feelings and about my feelings and the emotional signals I'm giving off. I am VERY reluctant to acknowledge when I feel anger. But, it turns out that I send "I'm angry" signals to my T a lot without my knowing that I'm doing so.

[unaluna]

1, its not about the t. Its never about the t. Unless its a really bad t, and that does not appear to be the issue here.

2. Youre not a child. Why is that in your name?! So its about making that leap from child to not-child.

3. T represents that leap to not-child. So yeah youre angry at t. Its not about t being "impermeable" or ts feelings, its about you making the right conclusions / connections? Seeing that its YOUR feelings.

Imo. T is not being "sensitive", you dont need to apologize for wanting to stay with parents where its comfy cozy.

[ruh roh]

Being asked if you are angry is totally different than being told your opinion is a slap in the face to the therapist. The first is a reasonable question to ask in therapy. The slap in the face comment shows your therapist is making your therapy about him, taking things personally and robbing you of the chance to reflect on what you meant or felt about the topic.

[Fernwehxx]

This kind of reminds me of my clinical psychologist I qorked with many years ago. He was very sure of what he was doing, and I dint doubt he was a smart guy who kbew his research and job. However, I didnt click with him and repeatedly shut him down. He never acted hurt, tho.

I dony like how self confident he sometimes was regarding his therapy. And I said stuff back then that was bot, well, nuce or polite sometimes.

Your conversation sounds weird to me. If have wished for a T or pdoc to examine more what would make you feel held or such.
I'd prob go back to that the next time you see him to discuss your feelings. You shouldn't have to deal with his in that situation, I'd say.

[mcl6136]

Originally Posted by chihirochild

There's some background below if you're interested, but the just of it is that I've been feeling a bit better lately--my SI is not nearly as persistent, I have a bit more energy, I don't spend as much time trapped in my mind/body with thoughts and emotions that make me miserable. Pdoc was attributing this change to therapy, and this conversation followed:

pdoc: "the transition [i moved to a new town, and had to get new shrinks] was difficult, but now you're settled with us [pdoc and t]."
c: "mhmm."
pdoc: "and you've been able to set some boundaries with your parents, even though that was difficult."
c: "true."
pdoc: "do you feel held here?"
c: "no."
pdoc: [genuinely surprised] "no? why not?"
c: "because... well, you're asking me to separate from my parents. and I get why you're suggesting that--they're not healthy people, and they contribute to my depression. but... I don't really know how to say this exactly... but if the apocalypse hit, they are the only people who would care if I were alive or not. the relationship i have with you and [t] is limited. what you're offering does not replace what you're asking me to give up. so no, I don't feel held."
pdoc: "but you seem to be feeling better now that you've set some boundaries with them?"
c: "yes. but maybe I feel better because I've had pretty minimal therapy over the last month and a half. maybe the longer I stay away from shrinks, the better I feel."
pdoc: "but you've been seeing me once a week."
c: "yeah, but usually I have twice-a-week therapy. for the last month and a half it's been nothing or once a week."
[long pause]
pdoc: "that felt like a slap in the face."
c: "aren't you supposed to be impermeable?"
pdoc: "no, of course not--otherwise how could I do my job?"
c: [shrug]
pdoc: "I must have said something that made you angry."
c: "Really? I don't feel angry."
pdoc: "let me think, what could it have been?"
c: "isn't it possible that I said what I said because I believe it to be true?"
pdoc: 'well, yes, but also... timing."
c: "huh. so you think I'm angry because I said something that hurt your feelings?"
pdoc: "mhmm."

So.... I guess my questions are:
1) It was my understanding that the strict boundaries in therapy are set up in part so that the client doesn't have to burden herself with her therapist's wants/needs/emotions. So.... doesn't that mean that when the client says something offensive or hurtful, the therapist doesn't necessarily share her/his emotional reaction?
2) Pdoc has never apologized to me, even though he's done some things that didn't sit well with me. (Super intense --> brush-off, Inconsistency, response to SH) Why the hell should I apologize to him?
3) Did I say that because I was angry? (If not, it seems sketchy that pdoc can take the thinks I say that he doesn't like and attribute them to "chihirochild being angry" rather than "chihirochild has a point.")

halp, pls :/

----------------------------------------------------------------
Background if wanted/needed
Due to a weird insurance sitch, I do therapy with both a t and a pdoc. I see t once or twice a week and pdoc once every two weeks so that I see one or the other of them twice a week. They work in the same office and share info and stuff, so I don't have to repeat myself all the time.

There was a five-week period where I had very little therapy--first I was away for two weeks, and then my t was away for three weeks; during the second three-week period, I saw pdoc once a week. Right after t came back but I hadn't seen her yet, I had a session with pdoc and this is what he and i talked about.

Frankly it almost seemed like pdoc was fishing for compliments...like you were supposed to attribute your better condition to the therapy. Telling you how you feel is also how it came across. I don't like it when my t seems to want to produce or elicit something from me. I guess that's maybe why it didn't work? The interaction seems more about pdoc than you at least at this point.

[healinginprogress]

I don't think you said anything wrong. I don't think toy need to apologise either.

I'm torn though, because feelings are feelings. Your pdoc was hurt, but it's absolutely not your responsibility to nurture or burden yourself with his feelings. Honestly, it sounds like he needs to work those feelings out with a supervisor, other colleague, or his own therapist.

[ElectricManatee]

I don't think you are obligated to apologize if you don't want to. It's not the client's job to validate the therapist. Full stop. Frankly, I think it's weird that your pdoc got bent out of shape by such mild criticism. I have said much worse in the heat of anger and had my T respond with empathy and curiosity about my strong reaction, rather than defensiveness. I think your point about the apocalypse is rather astute, and I wish he had gone there with you rather than pivoted to his own feelings. My T will talk about her feelings and her reaction to how I am with her (which I encourage and find really helpful), but she will never do it in the heat of the moment (if she's feeling stung or whatever), and she only shares things she is fairly confident will be directly helpful to me. I think your pdoc has a strong need for admiration that he should get met elsewhere.

[growlycat]

I can relate to what you told your therapist, that what you are giving up does not equal what you are getting. So true. He sounds like he genuinely cares but yes, fishing for compliments and a bit too self satisfied with your care. I don’t think you should apologize but it might smooth things over to recognize what they have done to be helpful. Not necessary on your part just soothing bloated egos (not your job, but just to ear the mini rupture)

[AllHeart]

At what point did you even become angry?

Your points are very valid. I don't see where you need to apologize. If anything, he should apologize to you because this right here:

c: "yeah, but usually I have twice-a-week therapy. for the last month and a half it's been nothing or once a week."
[long pause]
pdoc: "that felt like a slap in the face."

sounds ridiculous. You were merely pointing out a fact, right? Sounds like this guy just had a bruised ego moment. You said nothing wrong, nothing offensive, so I don't see any need to apologize.

[unaluna]

I thought the "slap in the face" referred to comments a few interchanges back - to wit, i feel better if i dont see ts. This isnt edited dialogue, where each line follows immediately from the previous. To me, it was more, "i cant depend on you, i can only depend on my parents, even if they hurt me" is a slap in the face of a ts work in general. Not personal, except really to the client. Why does no one see it as i do??!

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by unaluna

I thought the "slap in the face" referred to comments a few interchanges back - to wit, i feel better if i dont see ts. This isnt edited dialogue, where each line follows immediately from the previous. To me, it was more, "i cant depend on you, i can only depend on my parents, even if they hurt me" is a slap in the face of a ts work in general. Not personal, except really to the client. Why does no one see it as i do??!

That was my interpretation too, FWIW. I think it's perfectly acceptable for a T to give feedback about how one's words impact him. I mean, he didn't start sobbing with his distress or criticize her for being a terrible person. I don't see it as him making things about him. He just said, "this is what I took from what you said." I don't see that as a big deal, nor do I think the OP needs to apologize.

If it's not helpful to you to hear how your words impact your T, then tell him you don't want to hear it. But part of human connection is having an understanding of how we impact other people. Sometimes that has been an important part of my family, learning that some of my ways of being may not be creating the connection with people that I want. No problem if you don't want it to be a part of your therapy.

As an aside on the topic of therapy-- it did me more good to cut out my family of origin from my life for the better part of 10 years, than anything else. I learned I was worth caring about, other people showed up to care for me, and I stood on my own 2 feet. When I decided to re-connect, after my mother reached out, I went back on my own terms.

[stopdog]

[QUOTE=unaluna;5987748 To me, it was more, "i cant depend on you, i can only depend on my parents, even if they hurt me" is a slap in the face of a ts work in general. Not personal, except really to the client. Why does no one see it as i do??![/QUOTE]

I don't understand any of it the way you say you see things. I never understand what you mean (except maybe that one time I did) That one might still see one's parents, flawed though they may be, as being more important/dependable/whatever than a therapist has no bearing on the therapist at all.

[Sheffield]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

That was my interpretation too, FWIW. I think it's perfectly acceptable for a T to give feedback about how one's words impact him. I mean, he didn't start sobbing with his distress or criticize her for being a terrible person. I don't see it as him making things about him. He just said, "this is what I took from what you said." I don't see that as a big deal, nor do I think the OP needs to apologize.

If it's not helpful to you to hear how your words impact your T, then tell him you don't want to hear it. But part of human connection is having an understanding of how we impact other people. Sometimes that has been an important part of my family, learning that some of my ways of being may not be creating the connection with people that I want. No problem if you don't want it to be a part of your therapy.

As an aside on the topic of therapy-- it did me more good to cut out my family of origin from my life for the better part of 10 years, than anything else. I learned I was worth caring about, other people showed up to care for me, and I stood on my own 2 feet. When I decided to re-connect, after my mother reached out, I went back on my own terms.

I may be completely alone on this one but ultimately he's only human and if therapists never revealed their own emotions/feelings we might as well interact with a robot-and what would that teach us ? Surely one of the main challenges in therapy is to help us "normalise" our interactions with others -if he's generally been a good fit for you I just don't get it-sorry-Its your choice to actually apologise or not for what you said but I apologise to my t quite regularly without retracting my words and it's quite empowering as I'm taking responsibility for how my words may have impacted him

As an aside I am a veterinary surgeon for a charity and see a lot of abject cruelty similar to way a therapist hears truly awful things many many times a day-I pride myself on being calm polite and professional at all times but very occasionally I might "softly" bite back-

[doyoutrustme]

It sounds like a gut response that they would normally analyze on their own time in private. Maybe he has and it’s part of a pattern he feels with you in particular so he shared it? Risky move.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by Rayne_

...It can be very true that people get better when taking a break from their T, nothing wrong with stating it.

Thanks.
"Get" better, or feel better? Usually you just feel better cuz all the dirty laundry stays in the hamper, out of sight, out of mind.

[stopdog]

Get better. Sometimes therapy is not useful. And sometimes, feeling better is enough.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I don't understand any of it the way you say you see things. I never understand what you mean (except maybe that one time I did) That one might still see one's parents, flawed though they may be, as being more important/dependable/whatever than a therapist has no bearing on the therapist at all.

Thats two times we agree now. The apocalypse is neigh.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by unaluna

Thats two times we agree now. The apocalypse is neigh.

Thus it is not a slap at them.
Of course, I am all for slapping therapists about whenever possible, just that this was not doing it.

[maybeblue]

I wouldn't apologize to him, unless you wanted to discuss this further with him, and then maybe do a sort of non-apology of "I'm sorry if you were hurt by what I said, but I thought it was important to bring up the fact that I seem to feel better when I don't see you as often."

Honestly if that is true (that you feel better when you don't see them) then that might be a signal that something needs to change in therapy.

[Myrto]

This guy should apologize to you for making YOUR therapy all about him. Ugh.
You don’t have to « smooth things over » with your pdoc’s bruised ego. If you can’t be truthful (lest your pdoc get hurt) about what’s working or not in therapy, then what exactly is the point of it?

[Sarmas]

I think you handled that well. You spoke your mind and there was nothing to apologize for. If prof sound something offensive or upsetting then that’s something that pdoc needs to deal with himself and that has nothing to do with you. You’re not there to make sure that pdoc’s feelings are in tune. That’s just something that he needs to work on.

[mcl6136]

Originally Posted by SalingerEsme

Wow that is intense. It seems like he was very pleased with himself that his therapy plan for you was working, .

Yeah, I would call it preening.