Schema focused therapy and limited reparenting

Just wanted to kind of share my thoughts about something I realized lately.

So I knew that all along my T and I have been doing DBT mixed with CBT, and we had briefly discussed doing schema work in our therapy. Now, the thing about my T is that she has a very unconventional style to her, but it works. She is far from gentle with me, she doesn’t filter what she says, and sometimes she straight up yells at me. Now...that may seem terrifying to the outsider. If someone had told me a year ago that this would work for me, I’d have thought they were crazier than I am...
But so on Friday, oh boy, stuff went down...So I had been doing pretty remarkably well for awhile now, and T was very pleased with me. Constantly telling me how proud of me she was. But then life got really stressful (see my post about complicated issues with the urine drug screens...that was only one of many things compiling). I was handling it well, and then all of the sudden on Thursday and Friday, I had a complete meltdown and really failed with using skills. I called T on Friday and she and I were both getting very frustrated with each other, and she said we were done talking. Well...I was feeling like a child inside...so that kinda came out. I started basically screaming and crying and begging her to please talk to me more later. She said okay, I could have a few minutes with her later. I’m in a treatment program, so I decided to go into the place and just go see her in person. I knew very well what I was about to walk into...I knew I was in for it/that I was in trouble for how I acted. I sat down, she said “we have 15 minutes, I’m not giving you any more time.” (trying to set limits/boundaries with me...) Then I started to talk and we exchanged some words and then it started...she started yelling at me...like really bad. Probably the worst she ever has. And at first I started trying to fight her, then I cried, and then I just sat there and took it because I realized I deserved it. She didn’t just leave it at that, though, thank god. T and I talked through things and what was going on with me and blah blah until I felt better/safe/like I wasn’t going to self-harm when I left. She also ended up spending about 45 minutes with me.
So as I was reflecting on this during the weekend, I was realizing that we’ve definitely developed this parent/child dynamic that goes beyond just my maternal transference for her. It’s real. She treats me like her kid in a lot of ways (even though she’s only 13 years older than me). This exchange actually even happened on Friday:
Me: “Yeah...I didn’t cut...but I did freak out and punch myself.”
T: “I know. I noticed the bruises on your arm...”
*I shrink back in my seat*
T: *looks at me straight in the eyes* “Knock it off. I mean it. Just like I would tell my kids, knock it off.”
When I left her office, I felt like a child that had just been punished, honestly. Wiping tears off of my face, sniffling, and all...But I also left with a sense of satisfaction that she had really helped me get out of crisis mode and a sense that she deeply cares about me. She has straight up told me when she has yelled at me before that it’s only because she cares about me and wants the best for me.
So then I started googling. I googled what reparenting in therapy looks like. And wouldn’t you know it...limited reparenting is a part of schema focused therapy for BPD. I was not aware. And I swear, reading articles on that topic was like reading an account of my therapy. I had no idea that she was doing that with me all along. The whole thing, including the getting me to form a secure attachment, the joking and playful part (we love to mess with each other during groups at program...), the empathic confrontation, and especially the firmness. I did remember her once saying that I had to learn to reparent myself because I didn’t get what I needed growing up, but now I realize that happens through her, on a limited level, reparenting me and modeling how I reparent myself/what healthy adult mode is like. It was kinda really cool to come to the realization that this is the technique she’s using. The idea of her reparenting me makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, too, because I have that good deal of maternal transference going on there...

Anyway, I’d be curious to hear any thoughts/experiences regarding this, the topic of reparenting, schema focused therapy, etc, etc...

I would be very unhappy if my therapist was practicing an approach or theoretical model on me to which I hadn't explicitly consented and which she hadn't thoroughly explained. Yelling at someone is not ok and calling it a technique doesn't give it special status or authenticity.

My thoughts? If that's 'reparenting' she appears to be acting as an abusive parent. And telling you it's 'because she cares about you and wants the best for you'... ugh. That makes me shiver.

It sounds like you were under a lot of stress and she came along and screamed at you and upset you further. I'm not sure what's therapeutic about that.

It's also clear that she is incapable of setting boundaries in any way whatsoever.

I can understand how it might sound bad if you’re not familiar with her, but all I know is that she is the one T that has actually been able to help stabilize me. She has helped me more than all of my other T’s combined and I’ve only been seeing her for 8 months. Her methods may be unconventional, but if it works, I don’t see a problem with it. This is how my therapy needs to be because this is what I happen to respond to. She’s very experienced and she knows what she’s doing.

I'm with luco in that this makes me a little uncomfortable. My therapy has a flavor of limited reparenting, and I could not handle it if my T yelled at me. I just don't think it would be helpful. The reparenting part has involved my T being accepting and nurturing and available to me to a fairly high degree (emotional availability, outside contact, and extra appointments). It is about having a deep connection with her, and her showing me that it's okay and safe to rely on her, even when I'm freaking out. And it's about me being able to trust her care and consistent gentleness so I can show her all the parts of myself and all the things I feel and think about myself. Kind of like how caring parents help their children grow by seeing them clearly and helping them make sense of themselves and the world.

It sounds like your T cares about you a lot, maybe to the point where she forgets her role as a therapist and lets her own worries about you and your future get in the way of your therapy. I have never found pushing and yelling and telling me what to do to be very helpful in changing my patterns. I need help hearing my own voice, not having my another's perspective foisted upon me, even if it's "for my own good." It sounds like your T has a fairly unconventional style (the teasing and sarcastic quips would make me crazy too), so I'm glad you feel like she's helping. I just don't think going off on you like that is what healthy (re-)parenting looks like.

ETA: OP, did you come from a family with people who yelled at each other in critical, harsh ways? I was just wondering because I could see you responding positively to the yelling now that it's coming from somebody who truly cares about you and wants what's best for you. Sometimes my nervous system seems to crave for my T to do the same things my parents did, and it can be surprisingly upsetting on some level when she doesn't fall into their (abusive) patterns. I think I would feel more comfortable at times if she acted in the way I have come to expect, rather than always being calm and caring and on my side.

My upbringing was...interesting. It was very all-or-nothing/there was a lot of splitting. I was either completely ignored and neglected and no one cared what I did at all, or I got screamed at or hit. Never knew which one to expect. Usually I was ignored, though. My mom was too depressed from her divorce to take care of me and my dad abandoned me. I always felt really alone.
My theory is that I like this type of therapy because someone is finally paying attention to what I’m doing. She praises me a lot when I do good things, but then is very direct and harsh with me when I have doing self-destructive things. I think there’s a reason for the harshness. 1. That’s kinda just her style with all of her patients, and 2. Particularly with me, because last year my T would just ignore my maladaptive behaviors and so they kept getting worse and worse because my BPD took over and I wanted her to pay attention to me. So it got to a point where I was doing very dangerous things so that she would finally pay attention to me. I ended up in the hospital 4 times in 5 months, and I had never been there before that. I really, really decompensated. I think she’s trying to intervene before I can spiral, and she’s learned with me that if she doesn’t intervene harshly, I don’t respond well/her intervention isn’t effective. Probably because I’m about as stubborn and argumentative as they come.
I really do believe there is a method to her madness. I don’t see it as abusive at all.

Really? She'd tell her self-injuring child to "knock it off?"
That sounds effective...

Also, yes, my therapy also has a parental vibe.
I have stronnng paternal transference with my T

I think it was more of a “knock it off” to the attention-seeking behavior. As far as self-harm we’ve done extensive work on that area already.

Also, to be fair, it worked, I haven’t done it again and don’t plan on it, because she told me not to.

Um, I'm in schema therapy and my therapist would not yell at me despite me hoping so because of my history.

Hey, the therapist is supposed to be in the Nurturing Parent mode, NOT the Punitive Parent mode (using schema terns to explain).

Yes there's room for limit setting but that's with empathy. Empathic confrontation. Nowhere in the clinician books is yelling OK.

Understand you see it as firmness, I just don't feel it should cross into yelling. :/

my therapist is like that with me. we get into fights and arguments and yell at each other. it doesnt bother me. for the way we work, it is helpful and i appreciate it when she gets into my face if she needs to. it isnt like a mother- child thing though. but we do feel safe enough with each other and our relationship is secure enough to say what we really think, even if it involves frustration and yelling.

To the OP:

What you describe in your interactions seems disempowering. I think that's why no therapist I've seen used that approach. She told you to knock it off, so you did. External power.

I think what’s been important for me is to see that we can get mad at each other and it doesn’t mean that we can’t still have a good relationship/get along, etc. Helps me challenge splitting, I guess.
I get what you guys are saying, I could see this going very badly with some people/see how it could turn abusive. But I really think that this therapy has been really effective for me/is what I need. As weird as that might be.

My last two therapists don't label the techniques they use. There are more than 365 types of therapy and they use what they think will work given what I am presenting at the time. I think a few of the actions done by my former attachment therapist could be considered reparenting techniques. She, my current therapist, and previous therapists have never raised their voices to me out of anger and frustration or for any reason. Many of these therapists I set out to irritate because of my former push/pull nature; do I matter to you. I would feel disempowered and shut down if they raised their voices or argued with me. If a therapist raised her voice to me I would have to terminate, but I can understand how you feel oppositely.

MRT, I get where you're coming from though yelling would be a no no in my own therapy. What matters I suppose is that you feel cared for rather than punished and that your T raises her volume but doesn't call you names...? "Knock it off" doesn't sound helpful to me (so maybe I'm harping on it, sorry) because attention IS a valid need and while we may use maladaptive ways to meet that need, we do need to get that need met.

I don't think it's necessary for a therapist to highlight each and every individual technique which they might use. However, if a therapist is using an approach which is extreme enough to include verbal aggression and the mirroring of (potential previous) verbal abuse, this approach needs to be fully explained, named and consent given. Of course, I don't think there is any way to explain or justify an aggressive approach and to do so would be unprofessional or exploitative; I can only guess as to this being the reason that the therapist in question has not been explicit about what she is doing.

Your therapist is doing anything but reparenting however limited. I cannot discuss my thoughts without criticising your therapist which you have not asked for (perhaps it's a skill I need to learn). Bottom line you seem happy with her methods though so have at it.

therapists yelling at clients is not reparenting

I am in schema therapy and my t would never yell at me. even if i am acting out. he will say that he is frustrated but he is patient with me. if t yelled at me I would be extremely upset

This type of therapy is definitely not for me. I would never want any T to yell at me. My T takes a soft and gentle approach that works well for me.

Lon_gone, I certainly agree with you that not each and every technique a therapist uses needs to be revealed to the client. My response to the original post speaks to my therapy only. I learned long ago, on forums “, thanks to moderators, to speak of my personal experiencesas only, or at least as much as possible.

For some folks, including some PC members, they appreciate knowing each and every technique, aggressive or not, that a therapist attempts to use on them. Different strokes for different folks. I was just sharing my experiences.

I think you're brave for being okay with people criticizing the way you do therapy even though you didn't ask for that. Some would not be okay with this.

"Yelling" means different things to different people. My 16 year old calls it "yelling" when I raise my voice and talk in an animated fashion about something negative he is doing or when I tell him to stop doing something. Doesn't happen very often. But my words are not abusive and I am not loud, I am not tearing him down or cursing or otherwise talking in a manner that does anything but make it clear his behavior is unacceptable or he is to do something very differently. To me screaming is the uncomfortably loud and obviously rant-y tone of voice and using abusive words. Perhaps yelling is more about being in control and not anger-spewing, where screaming and other emotional abuse is frightening (to me) because it feels like it could go off the rails at any time.

I would not consider yelling as emotional abuse. I don't see, without more understanding, how what your therapist is doing is abuse. It might be harsh or the opposite of gentle.

I don't think my own therapy has had this dynamic of parent/child, but I think that you should carry on as is best for you. I remember one incident years ago in my therapy where my T said "no" in a firm voice and it yanked me out of some kind of distress I was in. From the context, which I can't really remember but do remember how I felt, it was fine for him to assert some kind of boundary in session.

There are some ways I have attempted to get my T to collude my negative thinking, to react in ways I want him to to reinforce my bad feelings about myself, to encourage my goofy thinking or wallowing in some exaggerated state of distress. At these times he has acted with clarity and non-reactiveness in much the way a good parent would. That is what resonates with me about what you are saying, that your T is very clear with you about sticking to the path you've agreed to be on. You have a very specific goal for being in shape to return to medical school, and as long as your T is keeping you on this path and assisting you, carry on.

It would not be the thing for me, but neither are any of the other therapy interactions I read about here.
If it is working for you, then good. Do you have any thoughts about why it helps you?

I wouldn't be able to deal with a T yelling at me either (my marriage counselor came close, and that was the interaction that ultimately led to the end of our relationship).

Out of curiosity...do you maybe feel in some ways that you *deserve* to be yelled at? Like, you feel badly about yourself, so you think you should be, in a sense, punished or disciplined? If there's some sort of shame and/or guilt and/or self-loathing there that makes you feel you deserve it, that could be a good topic for therapy.

So, the *ends* justify the *means*?

You have to crack a few eggs to make an omelette, as Joe Stalin used to say...

Does it bother you at all that you are making excuses for someone who is supposed to be giving you care?