[lucozader]

Just come home from a session... feeling a bit weird and confused about something.

So, two weeks ago my T gave me some 'transitional objects', because I had expressed having difficulty with believing that he existed when I wasn't with him. He gave me two small stones, and said they were a carnelian and an agate. I was very pleased with them, and I've found them quite comforting to keep with me and fiddle with.

Last week, intended as a pretty meaningless off-hand comment (I think? Maybe my unconscious had other ideas?) I told T that my partner had disagreed with his identification of one of the stones, saying it was a jasper rather than an agate. He responded by looking kind of affronted and saying "do you want me to go and get a jasper?"... I said no, and told him not to get competitive... then tried to mollify him a bit by saying my partner has no idea what he's on about half the time anyway, he just likes to try and sound like he does.

Then in an email I sent him on Thursday, I mentioned finding the stone in question (having lost it for a while), and said "[partner] handed me the dark brown stone (agate!)". It was just intended as a slightly jokey reference to that whole thing... I dunno.

Today, as soon as I arrived for my session, T rummaged in his pockets and brought out two jasper stones, handing them to me and saying "these are jasper, you can have one if you like". He asked to look at the stone he'd previously given me and pointed out that it has 'concentric circles' that classify it as agate.

So now I have three stones.

I feel weird about this. What is he doing? Competing with my partner? Or is it me that's being weird for feeling like that's what he's doing? What do you think, what would you think?

There is a part of me that loves that he cares so much about my respect for the veracity of his geology knowledge. There is a part of me that likes the idea of him wanting to prove himself more knowledgeable than my partner. There are other parts of me that feel uncomfortable and wonder if he is sufficiently looking at his own process here...

Incidentally, my partner doesn't know that T gave me the stones. He would likely get very worked up if he knew that he was part of some kind of geeky competition regarding them... (oh, and he's totally wrong - but I knew that without T having to prove it)

[Anastasia~]

I don't think it is you at all. By what you post, it is clear that someone questioning his geologic knowledge about jasper is not something he likes or is able to easily handle, or so it seems. I think how you are assessing the situation is probably accurate. It's probably kind of weird because maybe you haven't seen this side/part of him?

[lucozader]

Originally Posted by Anastasia~

I don't think it is you at all. By what you post, it is clear that someone questioning his geologic knowledge about jasper is not something he likes or is able to easily handle, or so it seems. I think how you are assessing the situation is probably accurate. It's probably kind of weird because maybe you haven't seen this side/part of him?

Thank you, Ana! I'm glad it's not just me. I think you are right that it's not a side of him I've seen before and that's part of why it weirds me out. Also, T1 had a tendency to be competitive and that was... not good.

The whole thing just doesn't seem very therapeutic - it's about him, isn't it, not me? I can't picture him telling his supervisor about it...

[mostlylurking]

I could see where this would be a sign that he doesn't like having his knowledge or expertise called into question in any way, which for me would make me uncomfortable.

But I also think it could be a quirk. Maybe he's been a geology buff since he was 9 years old and he's just got a thing about it, and it slipped out because his geology hobby is not usually something he'd have to worry about in session.

Are you considering asking him about it, or telling him it made you uncomfortable?

[TeaVicar?]

It does sound like something was going on there for your therapist. Maybe it was the doubt over the stones or maybe some unconscious feelings of competition with your partner in some way. Can you ask him about it? I think that these things happen from time to time and therapists trip up sometimes.

[Anastasia~]

I think that it was his human side, which is bound to show itself sooner or later. I can't tell by your post how concerned you are about this, because in some of what you wrote, you use your humor, and other things make it seem like you are really worried about this. If you are really worried, I would talk to him about this next session and ask him if he felt annoyed or whatever. Especially since you said this was something you experienced with T1. Because you said that, I think it would help you to discuss it with him. Or is this something you don't feel comfortable doing?

[lucozader]

Originally Posted by mostlylurking

I could see where this would be a sign that he doesn't like having his knowledge or expertise called into question in any way, which for me would make me uncomfortable.

But I also think it could be a quirk. Maybe he's been a geology buff since he was 9 years old and he's just got a thing about it, and it slipped out because his geology hobby is not usually something he'd have to worry about in session.

Are you considering asking him about it, or telling him it made you uncomfortable?

He is definitely charmingly enthusiastic about rocks, which is also how he is with his plants (I was flanked by a pair of amaryllises today which have flowered in the last week, much to T's excitement)... I like that about him. Though I'm not sure to what extent any of it belongs in my therapy.

He has not previously responded badly to having his knowledge or expertise called into question, either (at least not where therapy is concerned) - and there have definitely been occasions where I've done that. So that's good!

I do think I'd like to talk to him about this, but at the same time... ugh. That's gonna be an excruciating conversation. I did respond when he gave me the jasper "is this so that I can take it home and show [partner] and tell him he's wrong?!" ...he said no... that wasn't why he was giving it to me. I don't think the conversation went any further than that.

[lucozader]

Originally Posted by Anastasia~

I think that it was his human side, which is bound to show itself sooner or later. I can't tell by your post how concerned you are about this, because in some of what you wrote, you use your humor, and other things make it seem like you are really worried about this. If you are really worried, I would talk to him about this next session and ask him if he felt annoyed or whatever. Especially since you said this was something you experienced with T1. Because you said that, I think it would help you to discuss it with him. Or is this something you don't feel comfortable doing?

I'm conflicted about it. Like I said, parts of me enjoyed it. Other parts are worried by it. On the whole, I don't know how I feel about it. Confused.

I do agree that it's worth bringing up, though I do also feel uncomfortable about the idea...

[SeekerSeeking]

It may be exactly like you think it is--or it may not be.

Things, I noticed from your post...you said, the T "responded by looking kind of affronted..."

He may have been affronted, or it could have been what you thought you saw...

I was once in a seminar where the speaker had a very intense conversation about 'abuse' with a woman in the row in front of me. Also, in that row was a male friend of mine. I saw agony on my male friend's face. I could tell he was very uncomfortable with the conversation.

The next day, before our seminar began I asked my friend if he'd been really uncomfortable at that conversation. He said, "No, I was quite interested, and wanted to know more about how that kind of confronting is done." I flashed back to the look on his face, that I saw (I can still see it), and realized that this is a classic definition of 'projection.' I was uncomfortable with the abuse conversation. I was in agony. And I projected that onto my friend. What a lesson...

So, may your T was affronted, maybe not.

Maybe him giving you a jasper stone and showing you how the concentric circles in the other one classifies it as agate is just him sharing his knowledge and interest in geology.

I invite you to ask your T about all of this--explore it; and mostly just conclude you don't know what other folks are thinking because it is not telecast across their foreheads...so we tend to fill in the blanks and make up stories about what their expression or words meant...ask your T clarifying questions, then you won't wonder. You'll know...

[ElectricManatee]

If this happened to me, I would absolutely ask my T why she gave me the extra stone and what she was thinking when she did it. I would also probably mention the part where I felt like maybe she was being competitive with my partner or maybe she was threatened by the affront to her geological knowledge, etc. All of it, even though I would probably make zero eye contact as I said it.

I say the "if this happened to me..." bit because these situations are where my T really shines, when we can kind of pick apart something that happened and what she felt and what I felt and what I thought she felt. I'm rubbing my hands together with glee because in these moments I am often so very wrong, and it shines a giant spotlight on the things that keep me psychologically distressed. I don't know if every T works this way, but I'm delighted when my T and I can really dig into an incident like this.

That said, it's possible that he's just beyond excited that you showed even a tiny interest in his totally geeky hobby. There are one or two topics where my T and I share an intense interest in something, and I can see her excitement and extra willingness to share pop up occasionally when those topics come up in session. It seems like good technique to highlight similarities for bonding purposes, but I think it can also just be the excitement of connecting with somebody over something that's important to you.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

I say the "if this happened to me..." bit because these situations are where my T really shines, when we can kind of pick apart something that happened and what she felt and what I felt and what I thought she felt. I'm rubbing my hands together with glee because in these moments I am often so very wrong, and it shines a giant spotlight on the things that keep me psychologically distressed. I don't know if every T works this way, but I'm delighted when my T and I can really dig into an incident like this.

I love the way you put this and it resonates with me. I can be very wrong about interpreting something about people's statements and/or behavior, and T has been a great place to confront this. I used to be defensive at the mere suggestion that I could be wrong, and now I'm delighted when I am because I always learn something important about myself and about how my past continues to distort how I make sense of people (my "giant spotlight"). As I've become more confident in myself, in knowing myself and what's right for me, I am less worried about being wrong, more willing to be open minded about what "truth" could be. And less invested in arguing with people about it.

I don't really know, L, what was going on with your T. It seems really symbolic to me, the question "what is this?" And what is the truth? I wouldn't have any respect for a person who knows that this thing is x and not y and who would just let it go. This is the truth, I might say, and here is how I know it. Then I would let the person make up her own mind about it. It wouldn't be about being "challenged" in my expertise but for the desire to share what I know. Kind of that "teach a man to fish idea." You can just say, this is the truth, accept it. Or you can say, this is the truth and this is how I know. I respect the position of the person who tells me why, not just what. It is generous and open. And maybe I don't want the other person to be hoodwinked by someone who does not know. So I show her that he can be wrong, so maybe she has more power to know what's true.

[lucozader]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

If this happened to me, I would absolutely ask my T why she gave me the extra stone and what she was thinking when she did it. I would also probably mention the part where I felt like maybe she was being competitive with my partner or maybe she was threatened by the affront to her geological knowledge, etc. All of it, even though I would probably make zero eye contact as I said it.

I say the "if this happened to me..." bit because these situations are where my T really shines, when we can kind of pick apart something that happened and what she felt and what I felt and what I thought she felt. I'm rubbing my hands together with glee because in these moments I am often so very wrong, and it shines a giant spotlight on the things that keep me psychologically distressed. I don't know if every T works this way, but I'm delighted when my T and I can really dig into an incident like this.

That said, it's possible that he's just beyond excited that you showed even a tiny interest in his totally geeky hobby. There are one or two topics where my T and I share an intense interest in something, and I can see her excitement and extra willingness to share pop up occasionally when those topics come up in session. It seems like good technique to highlight similarities for bonding purposes, but I think it can also just be the excitement of connecting with somebody over something that's important to you.

Thank you Manatee - I actually feel quite inspired by that to be brave and explore this with him! I know from experience that such topics often turn out to be the most useful and powerful places to go, but I do always find it hard at first. I guess it's also that the part of me that rather liked the whole thing doesn't want to 'ruin it' by drawing more attention to it.

I also generally enjoy finding out that I was wrong - as long as I have enough faith in and respect for the other person involved. I think me and T have done a little bit of that sort of work, and I think we have the potential to do plenty more of it!

[ElectricManatee]

Originally Posted by lucozader

Thank you Manatee - I actually feel quite inspired by that to be brave and explore this with him! I know from experience that such topics often turn out to be the most useful and powerful places to go, but I do always find it hard at first. I guess it's also that the part of me that rather liked the whole thing doesn't want to 'ruin it' by drawing more attention to it.

I also generally enjoy finding out that I was wrong - as long as I have enough faith in and respect for the other person involved. I think me and T have done a little bit of that sort of work, and I think we have the potential to do plenty more of it!

I admit it's a bit tricky because you have to be really confident that your T is thoughtful and self-aware and will under no circumstances gaslight you. That's the only way you can truly pick through distortions in your perception. It's a high level of trust, but your T sounds pretty solid.

I also think it's fine to admit that you liked the whole thing, including the way his following up with the jasper made you feel. I absolutely love when my T remembers something like that and mentions it or follows up later. I've been surprised at how talking about the good things that happen between us has strengthened/deepened my connection with my T. I used to have a lot of trouble with that kind of mushy, full-scale vulnerability. I felt like admitting that something was important or touching to me would make the other person denigrate it or take it away. But my T usually makes it a point to keep doing those things, which makes me understand that hiding the ways my emotional needs get met is just a useless holdover from my childhood, and I can mostly let it go.

[lucozader]

Originally Posted by ElectricManatee

I admit it's a bit tricky because you have to be really confident that your T is thoughtful and self-aware and will under no circumstances gaslight you. That's the only way you can truly pick through distortions in your perception. It's a high level of trust, but your T sounds pretty solid.

I also think it's fine to admit that you liked the whole thing, including the way his following up with the jasper made you feel. I absolutely love when my T remembers something like that and mentions it or follows up later. I've been surprised at how talking about the good things that happen between us has strengthened/deepened my connection with my T. I used to have a lot of trouble with that kind of mushy, full-scale vulnerability. I felt like admitting that something was important or touching to me would make the other person denigrate it or take it away. But my T usually makes it a point to keep doing those things, which makes me understand that hiding the ways my emotional needs get met is just a useless holdover from my childhood, and I can mostly let it go.

Yep - I have been set back a fair bit by T1's defensiveness and argumentative nature (and seeming lack of reflective capability and/or self-awareness). It's sometimes hard for me to accept that T is not going to behave in the same way - although he has been great and totally different so far.

The part of me that enjoyed it doesn't want to discuss it further. She feels that would ruin it and she would also feel deeply ashamed to admit to enjoying it. I don't have to listen to her though - or at least, I don't have to act accordingly.

The shame is always a risk for me though. It tends to make me somewhat dissociative.

[Argonautomobile]

Sounds weird and confusing. Seems to me that something was definitely going on in your T's head - whether weird competitiveness, counter-transference, ego wound...well, who's to say? I wonder if your T even knows.

Well, actually, I don't wonder - I'd rather not know, honestly, because I don't want my T's **** in the room when I already have plenty of my own **** to go around.

I hope he doesn't make a habit of bringing his weird **** into the room, and I hope he doesn't get weird and defensive if you do decide to ask.

[junkDNA]

I don't find it competitive honestly

[lucozader]

Originally Posted by Argonautomobile

I wonder if your T even knows.

I don't think he does, because I don't think he has really thought about it. That's what bothers me the most

I feel like like running away today.

[Echos Myron redux]

I find it competitive, unnecessary and completely about his stuff. I find it quite irritating actually; especially his giving you a piece and kind of obliging you to take it. Like you need to carry round a reminder that he was right and your partner was wrong.
And to start the session with it...Doubly so given the news you've had this week. Very unfair of him imo.

I can imagine my T just shrugging her shoulders and saying "whatever they are. I hope they are useful"
Don't think she'd have got drawn into anything more then the initial gesture.
Doesn't sound completive. Just sounds like his not comfortable not being precise maybe.

[Echos Myron redux]

I just want to add that he's been otherwise useful, so I don't see this as an indication he's a rubbish T. I think it just means you've stumbled upon one of his blind spots and it would be a good idea to talk about it.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by lucozader

I don't think he does, because I don't think he has really thought about it. That's what bothers me the most

I feel like like running away today.

I think I may be out of step with most people here and elsewhere, but I don't see how this kind of speculation can possibly be a good thing. How can you know, without even asking him, whether he has "really thought about it."

It is your interpretation of his statements/actions that are the cause of being bothered. And if your distortion/bias is always to go for the least benign explanation, or to structure your beliefs in ways that mean people are always treating you with some kind of negative whiff, this seems to me like punching your own self in the face.

It's obviously my issue that I find speculation of this sort-- whether it's about T's or otherwise. There's a lot of it on this board. I'm more interested in introspection but if this is useful to you, carry on, I'm not trying to stop you by speaking my piece about it.

[lucozader]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

It's obviously my issue

Yep. You might also consider that a forum for people with mental health issues is not the best place for you if you are frustrated by other people expressing their not entirely rational thoughts and feelings.

I'll just carry on punching myself in the face

[Echos Myron redux]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

I think I may be out of step with most people here and elsewhere, but I don't see how this kind of speculation can possibly be a good thing. How can you know, without even asking him, whether he has "really thought about it."

It is your interpretation of his statements/actions that are the cause of being bothered. And if your distortion/bias is always to go for the least benign explanation, or to structure your beliefs in ways that mean people are always treating you with some kind of negative whiff, this seems to me like punching your own self in the face.

It's obviously my issue that I find speculation of this sort-- whether it's about T's or otherwise. There's a lot of it on this board. I'm more interested in introspection but if this is useful to you, carry on, I'm not trying to stop you by speaking my piece about it.

I think it's important because there is no therapeutic intent that I can see, and it is important that therapists act with therapeutic intent. So the therapist has either
a)hit upon a blind spot they need to work on (ie they are oblivious)
or b) they don't care that they are acting in a non-therapeutic way.

It it were b) (which I seriously doubt) I think it's better that the client knows that the therapist has non-therapeutic intent and doesn't care, so they can make a decision about whether they want a therapist like that.
If it's a) (which it almost certainly is) I think it's important that it is raised to the awareness of the therapist so they can work it out in their own time and prevent their own needs impacting on the relationship in this way again.

This is how my therapy has always worked, and it's what makes it safe.

Originally Posted by lucozader

yep. You might also consider that a forum for people with mental health issues is not the best place for you if you are frustrated by other people expressing their not entirely rational thoughts and feelings.

I'll just carry on punching myself in the face

. .
Lmao.
. .

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by lucozader

Yep. You might also consider that a forum for people with mental health issues is not the best place for you if you are frustrated by other people expressing their not entirely rational thoughts and feelings.

I'll just carry on punching myself in the face

Didn't say I was frustrated. Your interpretation. It's actually profoundly sad.