[fille_folle]

My T is not blank slate, but she is relatively hard to read. I think it is a combination of her personality, boundaries, and perhaps the type of therapy she practices (psychodynamic).

I've experienced negative transference towards her due to this, though only occasionally and not as an ongoing thing. The issue is that when I was abused as a child, the abusers often had a callous disregard for my feelings. When I cried during abuse, or as the result of abuse, there was often no reaction. One of my parents, who was one of the abusers, also suffers from mental illness and as a result, frequently failed to be emotionally responsive to me in general. This was pretty devastating as the parent was my primary caregiver.

I find myself in what feels like an impossible, no-win situation in therapy. I tell my T about my traumas, and she responds with appropriate commentary about how the experiences have shaped my life and where to go from here. However, her unemotional affect when delivering her lines sometimes feels very bad. It's like I'm reliving not only the traumas, but the non-reaction by abusers as well as caregivers to my pain. Intellectually, I know that the way I feel about her response is being heavily influenced by my abuse experiences. But I can't seem to prevent the feelings of worthlessness that get dragged up.

I don't really know how to deal with this. I like my T, and while there's a part of me that wishes she would be different about this, I also respect that she interacts with me as she is able and thinks is therapeutic. I can't imagine any of my T's clients being damaged due to thinking she cared deeply or in a special way for them, only for her to turn around and prove otherwise (that seems to happen a lot).

I won't ever discuss this with her. I feel very ashamed of my reaction to her demeanor. I'm not exactly sure what is causing such intense shame, but it's definitely very powerful. And the thought of discussing this with her makes me want to disappear. I have been in therapy for close to 14 years now. I have never brought up anything interpersonal with a T before, and I can't imagine starting now.

I don't really know what I'm looking for with this post. I guess I'm just wallowing in shame and hurt feelings over imaginary crap, and thought sharing might relieve some of my angst.

[unaluna]

Re-traumatizing is a thing. I think it goes along with childhood emotional neglect, which is a relatively new thing. So some ts havent yet got the memo that their benign neglect is in fact retraumatizing.

[Ididitmyway]

This is a tough one.

I realized long ago, at first in my own therapy, and then through listening to other people's therapy accounts that being aware of the origins of your pain doesn't take the pain away, doesn't make it any easier to cope with it and doesn't address the real need to attend to it. So, awareness alone doesn't ensure that the healing would take place.

If you grew up with the experience of your pain being completely disregarded, you've developed an enormous need for empathy, comfort and support from others. This need is real and has to be fulfilled to some extend one way or another in order for healing to start taking place. Just being aware of it and reminding yourself where it came from won't do it. Knowing that the need came from your childhood experiences doesn't make it any less real and any less legitimate.

I wish I knew how to solve this, but I don't. All I know is that the current therapy model doesn't do anything to address people's real emotional needs. It seems to me that real healing takes place outside of therapy when people work together on building supportive and compassionate groups and communities where their unfulfilled needs could be fulfilled to some extend and where each member feels accepted and valued for who they are without having to mold themselves into some acceptable standard. Therapy can be useful only as a tool that gives people skills to form such supportive relationships in their life outside of therapy. But, in and of itself, therapy is not the agent of healing IMO.

[Lrad123]

This is interesting to me as my T is also psychodynamic and I have felt some of the things you have mentioned. I think part of the psychodynamic style is to bring out the transference and discuss it, right? For me, the hardest part is right at the beginning where he sits quietly without expression, waiting for me to lead the discussion. My father was quiet and often seemed stressed or even angry, and I would try to think of things to say to impress him or interest him or get him to change his mood. My brother could do this easily but I could not and I often felt ashamed about it or inferior because I did not have this skill. I get that same feeling during the first 15-30 seconds (sometimes longer) of each session. The difference is that my T typically responds in some way whereas my father did not always. I’ve told my T that I’m uncomfortable with the beginnings of our sessions, but I’ve never told him why. I guess I should, and I really think it would be completely appropriate for you to bring it up as well because what you said makes so much sense.

Another option would be to try a different type of therapy. I have spent a lot of time recently complaining to my T about our therapy, and he has replied that he does not do supportive therapy, but there are plenty of people who do and that might be a better fit for some. Despite my complaints I am still pretty motivated and interested in this type of therapy so I plan to continue for now, but I think it’s nice to know there are other options out there.

[Lemoncake]

I don't think this is imaginary at all. Not exactly the same thing but I watched this documentary about a mother who had severe depression, so couldn't bond with her daughter. The child was only 5 months old but would look away from her mothers' face because she was distressed- and for me that was just so surprising to watch. I think as children we need others to help regulate our emotions, I can understand why her lack of emotional response can be upsetting.

Have you told her all of this?

I won't ever discuss this with her. I feel very ashamed of my reaction to her demeanor. I'm not exactly sure what is causing such intense shame, but it's definitely very powerful. And the thought of discussing this with her makes me want to disappear. I have been in therapy for close to 14 years now. I have never brought up anything interpersonal with a T before, and I can't imagine starting now.

If you don't bring this up to her, it seems like you aren't addressing some core issues. I experienced profound neglect to and understand the impact.

My T is also psychodynamic and a psychoanalyst, and like lrad's, said he doesn't do supportive therapy. However, I spent a great deal of time working through similar transference. We've had some huge ruptures, some due to his inadequacies. I quit and came back, and he then adjusted the way he works; just a relatively minor adjustment, but it helped. I have worked through many issues, and while some are resolved, I regret staying as long as I did since I am worse off in other ways (ie, I have almost no defense mechanisms at all left).

I agree with IDIMW and think finding comfort outside of therapy is the way to go--especially before it's too late. I personally don't want to be look back a decade from now and regret putting too many eggs in the therapy basket as that will only lead to disappointment or resentment.

You stated you don't know why you feel such shame. I think that could be transference reflecting a core issue.

Take care.

[Waterloo12345]

You need to tell her! Make that jump into interpersonal stuff. You've been doing one way for 14 years (it seems like) so try a different way?

That said you might not get what or all of what you want but even the process of getting there helps.

So an issue for me is someone bearing witness to my pain, walking along side me. This results in emails outside session. She's kinda a strict pyschodynamic t.

We had a very long todo over these bloody emails, it's still on going, as it took me a long time to see and articulate the real need but now she reads and responds with a two liner, with some reference to the email (I assume to prove she's read it), telling me she's holding me in mind, witnessing my pain, providing a container to hold it for me, or what ever and redirecting to the next session.

Good luck!

You have to discuss this with her.
These are the places where healing occurs.

[Amyjay]

Originally Posted by fille_folle

My T is not blank slate, but she is relatively hard to read. I think it is a combination of her personality, boundaries, and perhaps the type of therapy she practices (psychodynamic).

I've experienced negative transference towards her due to this, though only occasionally and not as an ongoing thing. The issue is that when I was abused as a child, the abusers often had a callous disregard for my feelings. When I cried during abuse, or as the result of abuse, there was often no reaction. One of my parents, who was one of the abusers, also suffers from mental illness and as a result, frequently failed to be emotionally responsive to me in general. This was pretty devastating as the parent was my primary caregiver.

I find myself in what feels like an impossible, no-win situation in therapy. I tell my T about my traumas, and she responds with appropriate commentary about how the experiences have shaped my life and where to go from here. However, her unemotional affect when delivering her lines sometimes feels very bad. It's like I'm reliving not only the traumas, but the non-reaction by abusers as well as caregivers to my pain. Intellectually, I know that the way I feel about her response is being heavily influenced by my abuse experiences. But I can't seem to prevent the feelings of worthlessness that get dragged up.

I don't really know how to deal with this. I like my T, and while there's a part of me that wishes she would be different about this, I also respect that she interacts with me as she is able and thinks is therapeutic. I can't imagine any of my T's clients being damaged due to thinking she cared deeply or in a special way for them, only for her to turn around and prove otherwise (that seems to happen a lot).

I won't ever discuss this with her. I feel very ashamed of my reaction to her demeanor. I'm not exactly sure what is causing such intense shame, but it's definitely very powerful. And the thought of discussing this with her makes me want to disappear. I have been in therapy for close to 14 years now. I have never brought up anything interpersonal with a T before, and I can't imagine starting now.

I don't really know what I'm looking for with this post. I guess I'm just wallowing in shame and hurt feelings over imaginary crap, and thought sharing might relieve some of my angst.

I have had this exact same thing with my previous T. My experience of my female parental unit is of her as being "nothing". She wasn't any good for anything at all, certainly not for stopping abuse or emotionally supporting me with anything at all. When my ex-T was impassive and blank about difficult things shared, I experienced her as "nothing" and it was awful. It triggered up all the old responses to my mother, which I was unable to separate from T (intellectually I could, emotionally and reactively I couldn't).

There is absolutely no need for you to feel shame about your reaction to your therapist. These feelings are not in any way shameful. Your response is woven into your neural networks. Your brain is protecting you the only way it knows how, using the template it made in childhood. "In x situation respond with y". You are responding the way human beings have adapted to respond to childhood traumas. You are just being a perfectly imperfect human. There is nothing bad or wrong or shameful about your normal-for abnormal-environments neurological responses at all. They are just doing their rightful job. (Yay, neurons!)

Is your T a trauma T? My ex T was a trauma T who was very up to date with the latest in neurological understandings etc. Here's what I did when I was in the situation you are facing: I told my T. I said (something along the lines of) "Last week when you didn't respond to my pain it felt like the same way my mother responded to me, and it triggered me into that nothing space. It was really hard."
I had shared many times about the nothing space, so she instantly knew what I meant. She responded with "[deep breath] Oooookay, that makes sense, I understand what happened more now. We need to think of some ways to ensure that doesn't happen again."
So we did, and it never happened again.

Fillefolle, I know this will be hard for you to address with your T but is so very, very important that you find a way to do that. It really will impede your progress if you don't - those parts of you (we all have parts!) that are stuck in those trauma responses will stay stuck there because they will not feel at all safe.

It's a neurological thing, not a cognitive thing. When it happens again you will get triggered again and respond in the same way, because that kind of trauma response comes from the amygdala rather than the temporal lobes, and the amygdala overrides cognition when it gets activated.

Again, this is nothing to be shameful about at all, on the contrary it is entirely predictable behavior given the circumstances! Shame be gone. Your brain did an awesome kob of keeping you safe when your parent was unresponsive. Just needs to download a bit of an update for current day life, tis all!

[koru_kiwi]

Originally Posted by Amyjay

It's a neurological thing, not a cognitive thing. When it happens again you will get triggered again and respond in the same way, because that kind of trauma response comes from the amygdala rather than the temporal lobes, and the amygdala overrides cognition when it gets activated.

Again, this is nothing to be shameful about at all, on the contrary it is entirely predictable behavior given the circumstances! Shame be gone. Your brain did an awesome kob of keeping you safe when your parent was unresponsive. Just needs to download a bit of an update for current day life, tis all!

well said! one can never cognitively reason with an over-aroused and triggered amygdala...this is why talk therapy alone is not always the most useful or practical method in addressing deep seated complex truama.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by Amyjay

I had shared many times about the nothing space, so she instantly knew what I meant. She responded with "[deep breath] Oooookay, that makes sense, I understand what happened more now. We need to think of some ways to ensure that doesn't happen again."
So we did, and it never happened again.

I appreciated the entire post with fantastic advice, but wanted to comment on this piece. My T is also trauma-trained and experienced, and attends many neurological CE's on the topic. In the past nine years, I've had several rounds of very intense CSA work. Mine was different than what Amyjay describes, but based on the same principle, which is that the traumatic material needs to be brought into the space of the session and worked in some way. And the magic that happens is that it does change the neurological pathways that bring rise to those feelings of worthlessness, shame, fear, pain, desolation, etc. Because you are sitting there with T being able to talk about what's going on, which both gives you a little distance from it and unhooks it from the "groove" (I like this word because even though it is physically wrong, our neurological pathways can't be seen except via MRI and even then . . . ) because to me that sense of falling through a trap door feels like water rushing down a groove of a pathway of stones that have been well worn by time.

Two great books written for a general audience about the neurological piece of trauma are Mindsight and Buddha's Brain.

I don't think it particularly matters how you get the stuff around the feelings of trauma into session, whether you can do it in the moment (which for me was a product of a process after a period of bringing up things from the past session and asking for T's help discussing it) or as Amyjay suggested or in some other way. But I don't think it has to do with T's "reaction" as you say, which I think is intended to be "small" as not to overwhelm you and your responses to it, as you cognitively are aware of it is not the same as your abusers. As Amyjay said, it's critical to put your feelings out there and your T will understand it's not about her or a criticism of her, and you can "talk about talking about it" and what might be helpful to you. I'm not sure how long you've been in this place, but I think it takes a while at first to figure out how to put traumatic material out there in the space of therapy and have it be contained and manageable, what is now a flood of emotions can be reduced to a gentle stream so you can give words to the feelings and memories and where those take you.

I'd say my trauma work in therapy went from me as dissociated babbling idiot to me as someone who could take out a piece of it (usually triggered by the world in general, which offers plenty of material) and feel and think and be in the midst of it, with a foot planted in the now. There were times when I was doing this that I could literally feel my old neurological pathways fritzing out like a bad electrical connection and branching off into something diffused and (in my imagination) new and pink and fresh.

https://smile.amazon.com/Buddhas-Bra...ddha%27s+brain

https://smile.amazon.com/Mindsight-N...ords=mindsight

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by koru_kiwi

well said! one can never cognitively reason with an over-aroused and triggered amygdala...this is why talk therapy alone is not always the most useful or practical method in addressing deep seated complex truama.

I both agree and disagree with this. The agree part is the science (I'm thinking of Bessel van der Kolk's The Body Keeps the Score) establishes the helpful role of body-based therapy for trauma. In my own healing, mindfulness (as distinguished from meditation, which I've done for decades) took me to new places, as did Tai Chi.

The disagree part is that "never" is not accurate in my view, and in the midst of trauma itself, I think the automatic nature and overwhelming that occurs does not allow for much cognitive processing, if any. Sensory information is more likely to be taken in on a limited basis during the traumatic events. I think the science of it suggests that higher order cognitive functions, the outer cortex of the brain where reasoning and problem solving take place, are essentially offline.

But I don't think the science supports that trauma triggers (compared to the trauma itself) trip the amygdala with the strength of the original trauma, which suggests that the cognitive processing/thinking/reasoning part of the brain is still engaged. It is possible to work to bring the traumatic material into a therapy session (for me it was helpful to learn to recognize the onset of dissociation and then use grounding techniques like pressing my feet into the floor and taking three deep breaths or other breathing patterns), to learn to contain it there, and to develop the ability to move forward from it. It is slow and painful, but I'm not an outlier. I think it may be important to start from a cognitive place that the traumatic reaction tripped from memory or symbolic events (by symbolic I mean things that happen that are not abusive, such as the OP's feeling her T is emotionally reacting like her abusers) is not set in stone, forever unchangeable. In my experience, cognitions and emotions are in dynamic flux, constantly informing and influencing the other. The ability to feel and the ability to think are not mutually exclusive.

[Ididitmyway]

I also would like to validate your decision to not talk to your therapist about it.

Knowing what I know about therapy now, I'd do the same. Because I know that the response, most likely, would be a "professional" silence, which would, again, create the same feeling of being dismissed, disregarded in me that I've had from childhood. Or, in the best case scenario, I'd get yet another reminder of the historical origin of my feelings, which is something I am already perfectly aware of. May be there would also be some standard "empathetic" response thrown in as a "therapeutic" intervention such as "how does it feel to tell me about this?" Any of the above responses just re-create the original trauma and do nothing to address it.

If I were in therapy today, I'd also not discuss any reactions that a therapist's demeanor and personal style evoke in me. It makes sense to discuss some specific therapist's actions that bother you, but not their style of working. Every therapist picks the style, the methods and the theoretical approach that fits their personality best and they are not going to change it for a client, who gets triggered by it. In my experience, all those "therapeutic" discussions just led to my trauma getting more and more aggravated. I've figured that if something about the way the therapist works is too triggering, then it's better just to change a therapist instead of trying to "work through" it. Just like with any kind of service, I don't waste time insisting that someone should be doing business the way it works for me. I just find the provider who can reasonably meet my needs.

Just wanted to add clarification to my post that I was referring to clinical approach rather than how my T runs his business.

My post represents my experience and what I have learned over the years and is not part of any debate about whether therapy works or not. I think it's ok if people think differently and offer different perspectives.

Sorry FF for any distraction/for my need to add these disclaimers but I want to be clear: My response is only intended to help and came from my heart, not to play out some dysfunctional dynamic of this forum. I am stating directly that I won't be part of that.

[fille_folle]

Originally Posted by Ididitmyway

If I were in therapy today, I'd also not discuss any reactions that a therapist's demeanor and personal style evoke in me. It makes sense to discuss some specific therapist's actions that bother you, but not their style of working. Every therapist picks the style, the methods and the theoretical approach that fits their personality best and they are not going to change it for a client, who gets triggered by it. In my experience, all those "therapeutic" discussions just led to my trauma getting more and more aggravated. I've figured that if something about the way the therapist works is too triggering, then it's better just to change a therapist instead of trying to "work through" it. Just like with any kind of service, I don't waste time insisting that someone should be doing business the way it works for me. I just find the provider who can reasonably meet my needs.

Your thoughts on this mirror mine to a large extent. I think it very well could make things worse, and not necessarily through any fault of mine or hers. Finding a different T isn't really an option. There are really no therapists in the area who have experience in one of my diagnoses. My T doesn't have much experience with it, but I am not her first client with this diagnosis. So far, she has proved herself up to the task, which I think would be difficult for many therapists to do.

Like a few other posters, I would definitely encourage you to address this with the T, at least some of it. If you don't she may not know how you feel at all. Your post reminded me of my own experiences a bit - not in therapy but everyday life, and with me being on the other end. Quite a few times throughout my life it happened that I found out, usually after quite a long time, that someone otherwise close to me (or not close to me but people who had to spend time with me for various reasons) found my general demeanor and communication style dismissive. And I've figured this is mostly due to my outward affect and how I express myself, not really due to lack of understanding. So I always appreciate a lot when people point this out to me - then I know and can make efforts to behave differently. Of course it will never be possible for me to turn into something I am not (e.g. to become very touchy-feely) but I can pay attention more and be more sensitive. Now, after all the years, I usually get to this conclusion by myself (and I would definitely expect a T to do that!) but still need some signals for it because it is not my default emotional style. But if someone seemingly expresses that everything is fine as is, I may not think there is any issue at all because I don't know what they expect of me, or that they expect something different at all. And with some people, I am just not very compatible due to all this. I think this can also happen between T and client if they have very mismatching styles, but you won't know this if you never bring it up. I doubt that a T would judge you negatively for discussing something like this if they are generally perceptive and open-minded.

[koru_kiwi]

Originally Posted by Anne2.0

It is possible to work to bring the traumatic material into a therapy session (for me it was helpful to learn to recognize the onset of dissociation and then use grounding techniques like pressing my feet into the floor and taking three deep breaths or other breathing patterns), to learn to contain it there, and to develop the ability to move forward from it. It is slow and painful, but I'm not an outlier. I think it may be important to start from a cognitive place that the traumatic reaction tripped from memory or symbolic events (by symbolic I mean things that happen that are not abusive, such as the OP's feeling her T is emotionally reacting like her abusers) is not set in stone, forever unchangeable. In my experience, cognitions and emotions are in dynamic flux, constantly informing and influencing the other. The ability to feel and the ability to think are not mutually exclusive.

i agree...and this is exactly what i did in my own therapy, but i could not even get close to fully addressing the trauma, starting from the cognitive place, until i was able to calm the fear and anxiety that my truama memories triggered. what i experienced felt similar to remaining stuck in a continuous anxiety loop playing endlessly over and over that i could not escape from. plus, due to over-arousal, getting to a place to where i could trust my T enough to fully open up was also an arduous challenge. as i'm sure you are aware of, this is quite a common struggle for many of us with CPTSD and also DID. like you said, it definilty was a slow and painful process because of this.

i'm glad that you found mindfulness helpful for this, but i could not even get into a place to even do basic mindfulness breathing without becoming activated. so this is where i benefited from doing nuerofeedback in conjunction with my talk therapy...it was my version of 'mindfulness'. as the NFB calmed my over-aroused amygdala, i was able to manage addressing the trauama memories without becoming over activated or switching to other alters due to my dissociation. i could remain more grounded and present and that combination, similar to what you found by the grounding techniques you mastered, is what helped me move forward in my talk therapy.

[fille_folle]

I actually have done neurofeedback. My longtime T got trained in her ceaseless quest to help me. When we first began talking about my experiences, I was unable to even contemplate them the tiniest bit without severe dissociation. It was impossible for us to move forward. She consulted with Sebern Fisher - a neurofeedback expert - and we finally found the right settings for me. The improvement was very gradual, but I think it must have helped because I was eventually able to discuss some, if not all, of the things that had previously sent me off the deep end.

[MRT6211]

I had a similar experience in psychodynamic therapy. My exT wasn’t totally blank slate, but I didn’t know much about her. Her affect was flat and often I’d speak and she wouldn’t say anything at all in return. I ended up oversharing because I just kept talking to fill the space and then I got super anxious about what I had shared. I finally got incredibly angry at her for not responding to me when I talked and then snapped at her about it. She promised to change her approach, she did for a few sessions, and then all of the sudden she went back to not responding anymore. I flipped a ****/we had our first rupture over this. She told me her supervisor (she was a postdoc fellow) told her to go back to the old style. I was not happy, because she didn’t even tell me she was shifting approaches. My whole therapy was ineffective with her...to say the least...I really can’t stand a flat affect therapist.

[koru_kiwi]

Originally Posted by fille_folle

I actually have done neurofeedback. My longtime T got trained in her ceaseless quest to help me. When we first began talking about my experiences, I was unable to even contemplate them the tiniest bit without severe dissociation. It was impossible for us to move forward. She consulted with Sebern Fisher - a neurofeedback expert - and we finally found the right settings for me. The improvement was very gradual, but I think it must have helped because I was eventually able to discuss some, if not all, of the things that had previously sent me off the deep end.

i love the book that Sebern Fisher wrote, "Neurofeedback in the Treatment of Developmental Trauma: Calming the Fear-Driven Brain" especially in regards to what she writes about developmental trauma and how the transference from clients suffering from DT typically plays out in talk therapy and how many Ts (especially ones who are not truama informed) handle it incorrectly, especially within their own countertransferences. her book spoke volumes for me like nothing else ever had because i related to it on such a major level with my own therapy and the relationship with my T.

i used a lot of her protocols in my own NFB. my NFB practitioner had been trained by her and when she came to visit my country she offered an intimate (small group of practitioners) weekend training session at his clinic. he invited hubby and me to attend. it was quite a unique and such a special opportunity to meet her and have the opportunity to talk one on one with her. i felt quite fortunate to have that experince be a part of my own healing journey.