Couch 207: The spiced gingerbread couch

It’s Monday. Bleh. Time for work. The kids were off school all last week and now today 4 year old goes for his rinky dink 2 hours this afternoon then tomorrow they are off again because there is no school on Tuesdays.

Hope you got through the night OK, SheHulk and that p-doc goes well.

Stupid, persistent, tasty feelings.

I feel like I always leave therapy feeling unsatisfied, like something that I desperately want has been thwarted once again.

I can’t tell if this is Therapeutic somehow (or perhaps a necessary but unfortunate side effect) or just cruddy therapy.

*work issues intensifying*

LT, this sounds like it would be so stressful! How do you know when it's part of her being on the spectrum or just a random kid thing? There are certainly times with all kids when you have to set a limit or say no about a seemingly weird thing that they want and they melt down, and it's actually kind of healthy for them to get their feelings out and for you to gently hold firm on the "no." How do you know if you should be doing that as a parent or if you should be making extra accommodations for her being on the spectrum? Asking as a novice parent with a kid on the verge of toddlerdom....

I hate therapy right now. I just want my damn T to make me feel better and he just won't. He refuses to reassure me (he said once that that felt like an "intimate" act?!). I know that in his mind he is being therapeutic or whatever but to me it just feels like he's being withholding on purpose to hurt me.

And it feels addictive too, like he's stringing me along, keeping me in a constant state of wanting so that I will need him more and more.

Have you talked to him about how you're feeling and asked him how it is therapeutic to not reassure you? Sometimes I find that it is helpful for me to know the theory/rationale behind the treatment plan so I can get my brain on board, even if my heart has to come along kicking and screaming.

That said, I reassurey/warm&fuzzy/attachmenty therapy. My interim T is HUGE on validation (she literally called herself a "validation wh0re" in session ), and I have started validating myself too, which is not a thing I would have thought possible six months ago. So I don't know if I always agree that being withholding is for the client's own good, especially if they have a history of having their point of view invalidated by others.

ETA: Oh, and isn't therapy generally super intimate anyway? All the feelings and sharing and stuff? So that seems like a weird thing for him to say. Maybe he means it feels too intimate for him to do it, because he needs you to be the vulnerable one...

Thanks so much for your thoughtful response, EM

I have talked to him about how I'm feeling but I have a hard time remembering his rationale for why he refuses to provide reassurance/nurturance (I think because my heart is kicking and screaming in those moments, and that seems to drown out whatever it is he's saying).

One time he said that he's just not a naturally nurturing person (which made me internally go, "wtf dude, you have two kids--what are you doing to them??"). Another time I said that I wanted comfort and containment and he said he wasn't sure how to provide that over the phone (I was out of town at the time), which seemed ridiculous because it's not like we have ever touched each other, why the hell does it matter if we're talking in person or over the phone? Today he said that to reassure me that he doesn't find me repulsive might be emotionally interpreted by me to mean that he finds me attractive (which, I admit, is less ridiculous than it sounds given that we've recently been unearthing some erotic undercurrents in our relationship). Last week he said that to tell me that he likes me well enough and that he has warm feelings towards me would feel like an "intimate" act.

So I've told him what I want and how it feels when he doesn't give it to me, and he's explained his rationale... but I'm not sure if I agree with him cognitively and my heart is still hurting.

ETA regarding your ETA: That was my response, that therapy is an inherently intimate process! I said that to him and he made some sort of "yes, but" comment that I no longer remember. I didn't take the next step and ask him if he needed me to be the vulnerable one... I'm not sure if that'd be fair to him, he's often quite open with his feelings on other topics (e.g. if he feels guilty for making a mistake that caused me distress, or feels protective of me, or feels embarrassed about some weird thing he's about to say).

Oh yeah, that actually makes total sense. I'm not sure I could get on board with that either. The wanting and the not getting is AGONIZING. And clearly you understand what is reasonable (reassurance, warmth) and what is not reasonable (moving in together) in a therapeutic relationship. Do you feel like there are other important things you can get from him, even if this is a hard no forever? Or are you tempted to look elsewhere? (Or is that not an option? I remember that you had a screwy health insurance situation, even by U.S. standards.)

ETA in response to your... never mind, you get the point: I probably would have brought up the vulnerability thing, but that's mostly because I like my T to know that I am watching her and trying to figure her out just as much as she's doing it to me. (Sadistic streak, maybe?) It does sound like maybe he knows himself fairly well if he mentioned not being a nurturing person, so maybe these are the boundaries he needs for himself to function well and be comfortable as a therapist. He seems like a bit of a cold fish in some ways. Or maybe just very, very, very cautious?

It really is agonizing. Sometimes I think that the only reason I stay in therapy is because I'm holding out hope that one day the wanting will be satisfied, the longing fulfilled, the thirst quenched. I'm starting to believe that this hope is entirely foolish and I should just grieve the thing I'll never have and get on with it. I also wonder if I'm just set up to always long for something I can never have, that I'm drawn to things because they're unattainable... and that eventually I would hit any therapist's boundary. (Like, maybe if I found someone who would reassure me I would just eat that up and ask for more, ask for touch or holding or some other thing that I desperately want but isn't allowed.)

He seems to think that we have a lot of productive work ahead of us, especially now that we're getting into the scary depths of erotic stuff. He seems to think that doing this deep interpersonal work will help me sort out my intimacy issues. I hope he's right but who knows??

I do have a screwy health insurance situation (good memory), but I did once manage to locate someone who will take my cruddy insurance. I could call her up again, I suppose. I just don't know. I don't want to start all over again with someone new. And I'm so damn attached to my current T (even though I hate his guts right at this second).

Hah, I like your sadistic streak! I'm not sure if my T is a cold fish exactly (he can get very giggly sometimes, and has a bit of an eager-puppy aspect to him... and there have been one or two times when he has been explicitly reassuring... once I called him in distress, feeling like I couldn't go to work, and he said that I ought to let my sick self in to my work self, that he'd be happy to have me as his doctor, which I thought was sweet. And he can get rather protective of me, especially regarding the guys I date). He doesn't see himself as cautious but I wonder sometimes...

A related question: does wanting warm/gooey/attachmenty stuff from your therapist indicate that your friendships/relationships are insufficient? Like, would a person with perfect friends/SO/family want anything of that sort from their T?

HUGS @Polibeth I hope you feel better soon!

Do you have that empty, gnawing, endless-pit-of-need feeling? Because I can completely relate to that, and it sucks. But it also seems like you are setting up a false dichotomy. Yes, there are always going to be limits with a therapist (or anybody else really -- sometimes I don't want my wife to go to work so we can hang out, but she still usually says no), and yes there are certain things you will never, ever get (particularly if getting them requires a time machine), but that doesn't mean you can't get some needs met, meet some needs yourself, and grieve whatever is leftover. I don't think the "just give up and grieve it and move on" thing is a thing because people will always have needs (and wants and regrets and longings, etc).

For what it's worth, I don't think you really start over with a new T because you take your progress with you. My EMDR T (who I started seeing this summer) sometimes tries to get all Therapy 101 on me, and I politely finish her lesson for her and scoot us forward to where I need to be. But if you have the sense that there is more you can get from your therapist, then I can see why you would want to stay with him. That deep interpersonal stuff has been the most transformative work for me, so hopefully the two of you can navigate it productively.

HUGS @SheHulk07!!

Mine is mostly parent/mom stuff. I have an awesome spouse and lovely friends, but my emptiness feels developmental. My wife is fairly nurturing, but I can't/won't ever get the things from her that I get from my T because the power dynamic is so different in those two relationships.

It's kind of like how you would have different expectations for your child than for your significant other. I can test my T and explore that or freak out at her because I feel insecure in ways that would be completely inappropriate in an adult relationship. Plus obviously the therapist is supposed to know enough about psychology and trauma to not re-enact the past and to help guide the client out of whatever they are struggling with.

Why yes, I do have that feeling! It's the worst. I can posit where it may have come from (narcissistic mother with alcoholism, repressed father with anger issues, etc.) but that doesn't make it feel any better.

Thank you for pointing out the errors in my reductionist view. I think I just want a simple answer because I'm hurting and I want things to make sense.

I'm not certain that there's more I can get from this T but he certainly thinks so... I'll throw some more time at it, see where that gets me. I just don't know what to do with the gaping maw in the meantime :/

I Sh-ed again this weekend, and again this morning. Crap! Sigh. I have Pastor T tonight. I have to tell him. It went okay last week, but two weeks in a row of SH-ing. Ugh. I texted his wife this morning and told her I had SH-ed. I had texted her yesterday and told her I was struggling. I felt bad about telling her but I felt like I had to. I feel very tense and anxious inside. It's making me want to SH more. I'm trying to not freak out. It's hard. Hugs to anyone who wants one. Kit

I think it depends on where those warm/gooey desires comes from. For me, with ex-MC, it was mostly paternal feelings. I felt understood and accepted by him in a way that I never did (and still don't) by my parents. He once asked if I felt I have this void inside me that no one can fill, and that felt accurate. He said it was likely from childhood, that no one could fill it for me, that I had to do that for myself, but that he and others could help me do that.

The thing with him was though, I don't think it was just childhood needs. He was giving me the validation and support that my H wasn't. I think that's what made some of the erotic/romantic transference come into play there to complicate everything. Where at times I wished he could have been my dad and other times my romantic partner. Of course...if my marriage had been going well, we wouldn't have been in marriage counseling in the first place, so...

Then with current T, there's not so much paternal stuff there (though I think that came out a bit in the summer, when things got all messy between us). But he also gives me some things that H doesn't. I mean, partly validation and stuff like that. But also things like laughing at my jokes (which H doesn't really seem to do anymore), noticing if I have a new pair of shoes or new purse, stuff like that. Plus he's easy on the eyes

So it can be confusing. Because, I mean, of course, I'm paying him. And he has some fairly strict boundaries in some areas (never any more touch than a handshake at the end of session, will say "I care about your well being" but not "I care about you"), but somewhat looser ones in others (always replying to my emails, self-disclosing a bit more lately). He's been reluctant to reassure me at times in the past, too. He's said that reassure might help in that moment but not in the long run. And he doesn't want me to be dependent on him (or on anyone) for reassurance and support, but to be able to find that within myself. But then other times he can be quite reassuring and validating.

I think I had some sort of point here...

Do you think Pastor T and the accountability thing is helping, neutral, or making things worse? You seem to be struggling lately, and that must be so hard to try to navigate.

DBT would tell you to try a pleasant, distracting activity. DBT is a little sometimes, but who can argue with crafting or playing video games in the name of Treating Very Serious Mental Health Issues?

This is often what I struggle with. And I tend to err more on the "it's because she's on the spectrum, we should accommodate," while H falls on the other side. I've also read about the difference between a tantrum and a meltdown. Where a tantrum is more the kid acting out to get what they want (like, a candy bar), but a meltdown is caused more by, say, being overwhelmed by the environment (too loud, crowded, etc.), being unable to express their needs, etc. The thing is, something could start as a tantrum then become a meltdown. So it can be confusing. Like I don't want to give her a timeout because she's overwhelmed...

As for when to hold firm on "no"...we tend to pick our battles. Doesn't want to wear a coat? Well, it's cold outside, she has to. Doesn't want to zip her coat to walk to the car? OK, whatever. Stuff like that. But it can be tempting to just give in to avoid the battle...


T has been really validating with some of this stuff lately (I still suspect his son is on the spectrum, or at least has some sort of learning disability, mental health issue, etc.). He's said things like how D is a challenging child to raise, that we deal with things that most parents don't have to deal with. It helps me in my moments of feeling utterly incompetent as a parent (which I'm sure I'd have raising a completely neurotypical child as well!).

I was wondering this as well, that maybe feeling accountable--and tying religion/God into it--could be making it more difficult for you? Also hugs...

I'm not sure. I like the idea of having someone there that I can text when I'm struggling, although her texts back to me haven't been very helpful yet. But in general I think it is good to be even a tiny bit more open about it in real life, as long as it isn't going to stress the accountability partner out. Which I am worried about. I do think that Pastor T isn't as schooled in SH as some of my other T's have been. For instance, he asked me the number of cuts that I made and then I get badly competitive with myself and have to make it more the next time. And I feel really bad/guilty/awful for having to tell the accountability partner person that I SH-ed, which adds to wanting to do more SH. I don't know what the "rules" are with the accountability person. So right now, I think it is just complicating things. My regular T just suggested trying it out and see how it goes. But if I get in a really bad spot where I am SH-ing 5 or 6 days in a row, I'm not sure how that is going to work with the accountability person. I don't know how much she understands about SH and that might be very concerning for someone who doesn't really get it, to hear about. So I'm kind of nervous and stressed over it. I don't know what to do.