[kim_johnson]

So... He gave me something to read. To try and explain his choice of the phrase 'demanding', I guess:

'One further point that needs to be made with regard to the induction of a projective identification is the "or else" that looms behind the pressure to comply with the projective identification. I have described elsewhere... the pressure on an infant to behave in a manner congruent with the mother's pathology, and the ever-present threat that if the infant fails to comply, he would cease to exist for the mother. This threat is the muscle behind the demand for compliance: "If you are not what I need you to be, you don't exist for me," or in other language, "I can see you only in what I put there. If I don't see that, I see nothing." In the theraputic interaction, the therapist is made to feel the force of the fear of becoming nonexistent for the patient if he ceases to behave in compliance with the patient's projective identification'.

Ogden, T, H (1982) 'Projective Identification and Psychotheraputic Technique' p. 19

So... Helps some, I guess...

[pachyderm]

> "If you are not what I need you to be, you don't exist for me,"

and I will make sure you do not continue to exist...

[ECHOES]

So is he saying you are not perceiving him as he is, but as you want him to be? How do you feel about that? Do you think that happens?

I do this, particularly people important in my life.
I think it can be an aspect of transference. Or is it something different? Or does it depend on our expectations?

With T, I have found that if I fantasize too much about her, it interferes with the reality of her. I still fantasize but I don't encourage it in myself like I used to. When the reality T collided with the fantasy T (usually during session, although I don't feel the effects until after), I was feeling disappointed in her among other things. Attunement can be difficult enough to have and I was creating an obstacle to it. If I don't see what I want to see there, nurturing in the way I want to hear it, reassurances in the way I want to hear them, then in my mind the memory of her in that session is that she was cold. She isn't. She does offer nurturing and reassurances but I've had to learn to listen for them.

Just this week she called me at work to check in on me after (another emotionally distressed) crisis. We only talk for about a minute, very briefly. She simply said she'd got my call, was I ok, and we'll put our heads together and see what we could come up with in regard to my crisis. Those words, "we'll put our heads together" were comforting to me and got me through that day and the next. I would never have imagined those words to be comforting or reassuring words. I'm surprised they were and I told T that last night. Exciting to be able to take in what she offers, to really feel the comfort and reassurance of the reality T.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
In the theraputic interaction, the therapist is made to feel the force of the fear of becoming nonexistent for the patient if he ceases to behave in compliance with the patient's projective identification'.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> Is there more? Is he addressing his difficulty of being in this experience or is he attempting to help you gain awareness so you can have relief from how you experience it?

Kim,
So, is projective identification when you want your T to be empathic and caring, but when you don't experience that, you get angry at your T? (Not you specifically, but I'm just trying to figure this out)

Also, can projective identification include you as the patient being angry and behaving in a way that angers one's T? That way the T is forced to feel your internal world and will hopefully hand it back to you in a better form?

This is really interesting, but I'm not sure that I have a complete grasp on its meaning. Thanks!

[nightbird]

shoot, I think that also applies to other relationships, like in a family dynamic where abandonment is threatened and carried out by ones mother towards one or more of her children.

they internalize her response to them, as you better go along, or you are next to go.

or how the siblings feel toward each other ... as they age, where you must accept the projections or else they will cut you off - like their mom did - kind of like an emotional blackmail could happen.

i see it.

i think.

thanks,
night

[kim_johnson]

Sorry... I title the thread 'clarification' then go on to be rather obscure...

A while back I was fighting off a cold so I told my therapist I couldn't come in to see him but asked if he could have a phone session instead (as he has done with me from time to time). He said he could call me 'for a bit' and he basically just talked to me for about ten minutes then wanted to go.

I... Told him that I didn't want to go back to see him again. Because... We only really had a couple of weeks left and then I was heading off overseas. I was hoping that we could keep a phone / email relationship while I was away - but his reluctance to talk to me on the phone when I was sick... Well... I figured that I was being unrealistic about us really keeping in touch and I figured I better let go... And I'm no good at goodbyes so... I didn't want to go in to see him again.

When missing the next session hurt as much as going in to see him knowing that I'm going to lose him I went back again. He said that he thought there was a projection / projective identification thing going on. That my mother was demanding and that I was being demanding with him... And I objected to the word 'demanding'. And he... Said that he didn't mean 'demanding', exactly... And this time he gave me this book chapter and this passage... Well... I guess that is what he thinks was going on with us.

I thought... My not wanting to go back to see him was about the hopelessness of having needs that exceed other peoples capacity to meet them (like when I needed my father and he left me). Seems like my therapist is thinking that my mother only accepted the parts of me that she put in me / that she fostered / approved of. That I felt like if I didn't display those... I feared she would leave / abandon me. He feared... I was going to abandon him since he didn't give me a phone session, I guess.

I'm not sure what to think.