[Wants2Fly]

I have been thinking about so many things in respect to relationships, and how to have them. What my responsibilities are in the responses I evoke from others.

How does one become authentically compassionate? I don't mean the kind of silly-faced smile one sees on some people who join a cult, absorb a feel-good philosophy they never question, and greet every situation with a kind of brainless emptiness that seems like an imitation of loving-kindness.

No, not that kind of compassionate, but open-hearted compassion that requires us to look inward and outward and grow to accommodate new people, situations, and stressors.

I've also been thinking about some dimly remembered Bible story, and I'm not sure that I've got this right. Something about the shepherd who leaves the whole flock and goes back to find the one lamb who became lost and separated from the flock. Because every lamb that strays is as important as the whole flock that is safe.

I've also been thinking about a social theory by a man named Kenneth Burke. He believes that humans naturally feel "guilt" because of the basic act of having to distinguish a "me" that is separate from "you." As soon as there is separation, there is higherarchy -- on person placing himself or herself higher or lower than You. It is from that, the hierarchy, that one experiences guilt. To make the pain of the guilt go away, blame is placed on one person in the society -- the victim. The victim is sacrificed. There is momentary catharsis -- but then the group realizes that separation was created between them and the other, the sacrificial victim. And the process of victimage starts again. For those of you who are not Christian, the story of victimage/sacrifice/catharsis is much older than Christianity. There was a kind of sacrifice called The Burning Man in the ancient Celtic kingdoms. It may have been Druid, my archaeological history is a bit rusty.

This is a meandering post. If you made it to the end of this thing without your eyelids falling shut, thank you for reading.

[nothemama8]

Very good post, kind of makes me think that those of us (me included) who allow ourselves to become victims just to see if ppl will like them any better, in the old days I used to play victim just so i could have ppl lord it over me that I could do better if i only tried
Now I know i'am above the victim part and feel everyone can acheive so much more if they give themselves that chance
Am I rambling or does this make sense
Angie

Wonderful post Wants2. And Angie, you're not rambling at all. Those of us who are victims will continue to remain so until we do something about it. We are responsible for our own healing. While we may not know exactly how to get from the pain to the joy, it's up to us to take the first step. I played the victim for many years to try to gain the attention of others. It was a feeble attempt to fill the void in my soul. This makes for a piss poor relationship. Now who's rambling?

Ry

[Myzen]

Hi Wants,

This is strong stuff, and IMHO the sort of thing we should be addressing.

In societies full of cultural differences, one thing is remarkably consistent. No -one wants to be the victim, the runt of the litter, the 'shut out'. The victim is the bottom of the pile, and I don't personally buy the Christian apologetics for this. Victim is the pits and everyone knows it.

Just look at the way schoolkids will avoid a victim. Once the bullying has started and one has been singled out, no one will befriend that person, in the fear of contagion. I have written some performance poetry on this subject, and I have a hankering to write and perform some more.

One of the bitterest pills for me to swallow is the admission that I have been a victim. Every fibre of my being wants to deny this. Every psychological strategy in the book looks attractive compared to admitting the truth. That's how bad 'victim' is.

When my father was near to his death, I tried to talk to him. I told him something of my life, although I avoided the biggest thing, which was the way he himself had treated me. My father said to me - wait for it - "It seems to me that you have made yourself the victim." I had not used that word, he used it. I remember feeling that I wanted to strangle him with my bare hands, right there and then. But I didn't. Instead I helped to nurse him and was alone with him at the end.

You know - it's a funny old world. (Now who's rambling)

Myzen.

[gardenergirl]

On a similar but not quite the same note, I remember that making a change in how I view myself (thanks to therapy) making a big difference. Once I stopped seeing myself as a "broken, depressed person" and as someone who was "healing and capapble of great strength", I started to become that second type of person.

I think September Morn had this as a sig line or in a post once..you have to be able to see it to be it or something like that.

So I think that your post, w2f is correct. There are societal influences that affect how we view ourselves and others. It's a challenge to look beyond those to see the real person, whether it's to see ourself without society's lens or to see someone else clearly.

Thanks for posting that.

gg

for years i've wished that i looked like who i am..as i age, i look more and more like my mother (no polyester though)and that's not how i want to look. i want to look like the reckless, chance-taking, creative and strong person that i believe myself to be.......society expectations aren't for me to be who i am....i'll never forget my dealer sending a couple from Manhattan to my studio to meet me....i was barefooted, sweats rolled up to my knees and filthy...working in my lower garden (which i had fertilized with chicken ****). they drove up in their mercedes and got out and the woman asked, "where would we find Pat Allgood, the artist?"........oh you don't want to know what all went through my mind then....she was looking for a woman in gold lame, cowboy boots, scarf around neck and a bolo made from rattlesnak skin..of that i'm sure....when i told her who i was.....their faces fell about three feet and they stuttered for a bit and then left.......societal expectations, for me, have been impossible to overcome. the Indian cowboys and cowgirls have even teased me about it..I guess, after i've rambled, the best part of myself is how i view myself. and i view myself as reckless, chance-taking, creative and strong. my mother never saw an obstacle that she couldn't get around and the apple didn't fall too far from the tree. i'm starting intense therapy soon and this is an issue that i want to work on...i also have a lot of trouble with preconceived notions about how other people will look or act or both....i'm really bad about that. i am trying to change it but it is really hard. at least i'm surprised pretty often~~

[Wants2Fly]

What interesting contributions to this musing. Thank you.

[SeptemberMorn]

Great food for thought! I'm so glad you posted this. What I'm going to do is give my thoughts on each paragraph and see where it leads.

Paragraph 3: ...open-hearted compassion that requires us to look inward and outward and grow to accommodate new people, situations, and stressors.

Compassion; there is a limit to mine. Most times it feels as if I have enough of it, but where do we accept our limits? Should we stretch those limits or accept them? What about my expectations of other people? I've heard that I shouldn't have any because inevitably, it leads to dissapointment. But there are certain expectations we have of others; like being able to act maturely in a social situation. How far do you stretch when someone doesn't act appropriately? How far does my compassion reach then? My jury is still out on that.

#4 I've also been thinking about some dimly remembered Bible story, and I'm not sure that I've got this right. Something about the shepherd who leaves the whole flock and goes back to find the one lamb who became lost and separated from the flock. Because every lamb that strays is as important as the whole flock that is safe.

Your recollection is right on. "The Shepard" goes after that one lost lamb for the reason that you mentioned. I'm sure that only God is the one that loves that unconditionally. That is, until I think of my own kids. I'd put my life on the line for them. I'd reach into the deepest crevaces or climb the highest, most treacherous mountain for one of them. That's expected of a good mother, right? But is it expected of me towards a relative stranger? Maybe yes, maybe no.

#5 believes that humans naturally feel "guilt" because of the basic act of having to distinguish a "me" that is separate from "you."

Not too sure I agree with that, exept maybe when two people are "Enmeshed" with each other and one makes a break from the relationship.

As soon as there is separation, there is higherarchy -- on person placing himself or herself higher or lower than You. It is from that, the hierarchy, that one experiences guilt. To make the pain of the guilt go away, blame is placed on one person in the society -- the victim. The victim is sacrificed. There is momentary catharsis

This I can vouch for. The difference lies in that the separation came from the ill mind of my daughter. I can believe that she felt "quilty" when she made the decision to cut me from her life. I've also felt some guilt because of my own actions. However, I don't feel victimized by her. The victims are her two boys.

#6 If you made it to the end of this thing without your eyelids falling shut, thank you for reading.

Actually, it woke me up. It made me introspective. Something I've been needing to do for a few days. It made me realize that I need to "fill my own gas tank." It's begining to run on fumes.

Thanks, Wants2! Like I told you before, there's a new found respect and admiration for you growing in this ole heart of mine.

[Wants2Fly]

Thank you Myzen and SeptemberMorn.

what do i CARE about what society thinks of me? i'm working on it.....compassion, i have oodles of it...too much at times.

[Wants2Fly]

Fayerody --

The notion that one can have "too much compassion" is interesting. I'm not sure that "doing for others" always comes from compassion. In fact, some of the most genuinely compassionate people I know are extremely good at drawing boundaries so that other people don't abuse and wear them out.

I think that people -- especially women and children who were abused -- grow up trying to please people. People-pleasing, as it's called. And part of that is looking after other people's needs, even to the extent of neglecting our own needs.

I'm not saying that nurturing others that stems from people-pleasing doesn't include a dimension of true caring and concern, even love in some situations.

Here is the Wikipidia definition (not that wiki is any great source for understanding the nuances of language):<font color="blue}

Compassion is a sense of shared suffering, most often combined with a desire to alleviate or reduce such suffering.

Compassionate acts are generally considered those which take into account the suffering of others and attempt to alleviate that suffering as if it were ones own. In this sense, the various forms of the Golden Rule are clearly based in the concept of compassion.

Compassion differs from other forms of helpful or humane behavior in that its focus is primarily on the alleviation of suffering. Acts of kindness which seek primarily to confer benefit rather than relieve existing suffering are better classified as acts of altruism, although, in this sense, compassion itself can be seen as a subset of altruism, it being defined as the type of behavior which seeks to benefit others by reducing their suffering.[/color">

I think that a lot of the people-pleasing behavior falls in the altruism category -- addressing the outer effects of the suffering because addressing the inner sources is so difficult. I also think -- at least for me -- being busy "helping others" is an escape from addressing my own deepest issues and wounds, and helping myself.

In another recent thread, I suggested that we cannot be compassionate toward others if we are not compassionate toward ourselves. Someone argued that of course we can be compassionate toward others if we are not compassionate toward ourselves, and I agreed.

But there is still a part of me that wonders if this is true, at the deepest level. Perhaps we feel sympathy, empathy, pity -- but I wonder if what we feel is compassion, at least at the deepest purest level. I am holding as my model examples such as the Buddha, such as Mother Teresa -- where no exceptions are made in demonstrating compassion toward others.

The kind of compassion I'm thinking of, and trying to learn, comes from a deeply spiritual, soul place. It is that individual who has a "healing presence" (HP). That person with HP may not have a piece of bread to give the hungry person. But the heart is so open, so compassionate, so healing that just being in the presence of HP relieves the suffering (not the hunger, the inner heartfelt suffering) of the hungry person and the heart lifts, transcends the outer experience of hunger.

Yes, I had that experience of being in the healing presence of a compassionate person and having my spirit lift at word, at a touch -- with absolutely nothing in the outer changing.

I believe (at least until this argument move forward and I change my mind) that one has to demonstrate compassion toward oneself first, before one can be a compassionate healing presence. In other words, I am seeing compassion as a way of being rather than a way of doing.

If a person says, "I am compassionate toward abused children, but I have no mercy for the rapist, the murderer, the torturer," I would agree that one has achieved a degree of compassion but the heart still has places that are hard.

If the place in my heart that is hard is toward myself, I think that creates a lot of problems in demonstrating true compassion. I think we are functioning from altruism and people-pleasing until we can give ourselves the mercy, too.

At any rate, these are the ideas that I am working with these days, so I'm grateful for anyone who had time and interest to add to the dialogue.

[SeptemberMorn]

altruism: I had to look this up for the third or fourth time.

1 : unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others
2 : behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species

Mother Theresa comes to mind. "Martyr"??

hmmmmmmmmmmm. there are times now that i have very little compassion towards myself. i know that i'm wrong to play the blame game (toppling my own world is my fault)because i can really get into a major funk.
my feelings towards people who are struggling more than i am have changed over the years. living in New Mexico changed me alot. Taos attracted so many young ""hippies" who didn't want to work but they wanted material goods and a good space to lay their heads.....i got jaded rather quickly.. animals still reside in that spot that is soft. i really don't know that i'm a people pleaser any more. i really don't. i can be rather abrupt and withdrawn..but that may be from my disease...???? i've done my share of volunteering for obscure causes because i can't afford to give much money...this is a hard one for me....when i say i may be too compassionate at times, i'm referring to ending up with four cats instead of one..they were dumped and i couldn't leave them. i'm also referring to giving a neighbor money and later finding out that she spent it on crack. i didn't take the time, soft heart, to analyse what was going on with her....just "loaned" her the money.....

[Wants2Fly]

Hi Fayerody -- My purpose is not to discredit anyone's personal acts of generosity, altruism, etc.

I'm kind of thinking in type here, trying to figure things out.

[Myzen]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
living in New Mexico changed me alot. Taos attracted so many young ""hippies" who didn't want to work but they wanted material goods and a good space to lay their heads.....i got jaded rather quickly..

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Hi fayerody,

True, our compassion is quickly eroded by being around selfish people.

Cheers, Myzen.

i'm not feeling "challenged" or anything like that. i'm just trying to figure this out too.......

[mj14]

Wants2Fly,

You sure have given me some good meat to chew on lately!

I think a lot about compassion, because it seems to be at the core of the disparity between me and my mother. My mother is just amazing at “doing” compassion…she must send birthday and anniversary cards to 100 people, and never misses. When someone is sick, she always visits them, and when a former member of her church was living out her final days in a nursing home, my mother went to see her every single day, for months and months. But my mother doesn’t do these things because she feels compassion…it’s just what she thinks she is supposed to do, and her own sense of perfection demands that she do these things perfectly. When I say she doesn’t feel compassion, it’s not that she is a bad person, but there’s something about her heart that is fixed, and cannot shift to encompass the feelings of others. I, on the other hand, am all “feeling” and very little “doing”. I have empathy in the very strictest sense…I feel pain when I’m with someone in pain, I feel joy when I’m with someone joyful…but I am often unable to translate that feeling into action. I am absolutely worthless in a crisis, because I just end up incapacitated with the feelings of the people in crisis. I am terrible about the little “niceties,” such as those birthday cards that my mom is so good at, because they come from the head (remembering the date).

So in the end, which of us is the compassionate one? Maybe we both are, or maybe true compassion lies somewhere in the middle. You used the term “open-hearted” and I think that’s a very valid one…without the ability to actually let someone else infuse your heart a bit, it is not possible to truly understand their needs. On the other hand, a heart that is too open cannot maintain enough internal strength to be able to perform the actions necessary to be useful. So in seeking compassion, maybe one needs to ask the question of whether it is in opening the heart, or in taking action, that one needs to improve.

Your points on hierarchy are also very compelling, but I think I will give my thoughts on that separately, to avoid confusing myself.