I've been having what I find to be a very interesting discussion in another part of this site. By bringing the topic up here, I'm hoping to expand the audience and invite all points of view. Gender equality can be a hot topic for me, anyway, and if it gets hot for anyone else, I hope nobody is disrespected and everyone feels free to speak their own viewpoints. However, I'm going to include a trigger icon *just in case.*

So here's where I stand.

I don't even like "ladies first." I'd appreciate someone giving up a seat to me on the bus, or holding the door open for me, because I have a physical disability. But please don't feel obligated to do so just because I'm a woman. Although no, I'm not going to yell at a man who does that. He's probably been taught that way, and he is making a sincere effort to be courteous. Motive means everything. And a lot of people still think it's just common decency to let women go first. They call it "respect." Well, I disagree, that's all. I'd be more inclined to call it "respect" if I'm looked at as an equal, not a delicate being who requires special consideration. I also feel that since we women have worked hard for the rights we have--to vote, to own property, to be hired for the same jobs at the same pay, etc.--it would be hypocritical to turn around and demand preferential treatment on the basis of gender. (However, I'm still tempted to say, "Hey, there's a lady present!" when someone lets loose with a bunch of profanity. )

Am I trying to be unfeminine? Absolutely not. I prefer dresses over slacks. My hair is very long. I enjoy wearing makeup and jewelry. I even legally changed the name I was given at birth, because I felt it was too boyish, and I wanted a name that was more clearly female. "I want to be equal" doesn't mean "I want to be a man."

I've got an uncle who doesn't like to hear any talk of "women's lib," and he will tell any woman who is at all upset with her husband, "Quit trying to be the boss. The man is supposed to be the boss." Well, he's referring to certain Bible verses. I'm not starting this thread to debate religious doctrine, however anyone feels about that. I'm only trying to say, it's not a matter of "trying to be the boss." I guess in my uncle's way of thinking, someone has to be superior. He doesn't seem to grasp the concept of equality. If a woman even hints about equal rights, his ears take it to mean, "Let's reverse roles completely, give the women all the power, and make the men grovel."

Nope. Not trying to do that at all. Equality works both ways. "I want to be equal" doesn't mean "I don't like men."

I could go on, but this is getting long, and I'd like to hear from others.

[jenkins09]

(However, I'm still tempted to say, "Hey, there's a lady present!" when someone lets loose with a bunch of profanity. )

That is my issue with what you posted. I have no problem with what you said, but its the women that want it both ways. Treat me as an equal, but when it suits me I want to play the "hey I'm a woman card." I am old school in thinking, however I am young. I hold doors for women, let a woman get her food first, etc. I see this as respect, not because a woman is "weak."

I feel like both sexes should help with raising the kids, cooking, cleaning, etc. We need to see each other as equals and to respect the differences that make a man a man, and a woman a woman.

Jenkins, I don't blame you for having an issue with it. That's why I said I'm *tempted* to say it. I don't actually say it. It has crossed my mind (automated response; it's what my mother would say) but I've recognized the inconsistency in it, and shut it off. I have problems too when women want it both ways, and I see "give me equal employment opportunity, but give up your seat to me" as wanting it both ways.

I said this on another thread, but then I started this general discussion so as not to hijack. I didn't go into detail there. I will here. I think the reason this is on my mind is that something happened on another site that peeves me off just a little bit. It's a humor page. Someone posted a joke that was obviously sexist, trying to be funny. Specifically, it was a short parody of a fairy tale, in which the prince proposed marriage, the princess said no, and the prince lived happily ever after, because he was free to go hunting and fishing, play poker with the boys, and fart whenever he wanted to. "Men are better off and happier without women" is the obvious punch line.

Several women, including myself, pointed out that the situation might be advantageous to the princess as well. I added the line, "And the princess found that her castle was always clean, and every time she put something away, it was still there the next time she looked for it." Other women talked about the princess's toilet seat always being down, or her getting to watch chick flicks any time she felt like it, and one pointed out that she *also* could fart whenever she wanted to.

Which prompted the comment, "Wow, that sure brought out a lot of angry b...ches."

Whoa. If we had gotten upset, we would have been accused of being too emotional and not having a sense of humor. So we joke back in the same spirit as the man who started it, and that makes us "angry b...ches"? Exactly what were we supposed to do?

Personally, I don't find anti-marriage humor funny, and I'm glad to say, neither does my husband. He has never made jokes like, "There are three rings involved in marriage. The engagement ring, the wedding ring, and the suffer-ring." If he did, I'd be mad at him, but he won't, because he doesn't like it either, thank God.

Now, about special courtesy toward women, I guess I just don't see the logic in it. Why should a woman get respect that a man does not? Why should she eat first? (Unless she's diabetic and her blood sugar is dropping, in which case *that,* not her gender, would determine that she eats first. Same thing if it's a diabetic man.) And traditions like standing up when a woman enters or leaves the room, the man walking on the outside edge of the sidewalk, tipping your hat to the lady, I think make even less sense. I don't see the reason, and one thing I have little patience for is a "because that's the way it's done" kind of answer.

I believe courtesy should apply equally to both sexes. That is to say, I think a young, healthy person should give up a seat for somebody who is older and/or disabled, but I don't think a man should automatically be required give up a seat for an equally young and healthy woman. I say "ma'am" and "sir," and I call people "Mr." or "Miss/Mrs." unless they specifically tell me to use their first names. Oh, yes, I believe in manners.

No argument either about the Bible. I'm a Christian. It's too bad that people have misused those verses about women being submissive to their husbands, and made women second class citizens. There was a time when women couldn't even own property. Whatever she had was considered her father's until she got married, at which time it became her husband's, and he could do with it what he wanted.

Thanks for joining in the discussion. I hope to hear many points of view.

[thunderbear]

I don't mind at all when men hold the door for me. I have had rude men just let the door swing back and if I were'nt paying attntion it would have smacked me in the nose. There are ways to respect a man and ways to respect a woman. They can be on equal terms.

[AkAngel]

I do not believe that men and equal. I do however, believe they have equal value. I love the differences between men and woman and I wish that more people would celebrate the differences.

If I had a difficult tax return and needed an accountant or tax attorney, I would pick a woman. Women tend to pay more attention to detail which would come in handy in such a situation. I would also choose a woman if I needed someone for a job that required multitasking, attention to detail, etc. On the other hand, if I needed a...

There are things that I would choose a man for but I can't think of a single one that I believe will go unchallenged. If I say a woman is superior to a man in todays social climate, I'm pretty safe - but I wouldn't want to suggest a man was better than a woman at anything.

This is where I think some of the comments came regarding the joke. I mean, find a commercial in which a husband and wife, bf and gf or even a random man and woman in which someone looks stupid, ignorant or incompetent...and find one in which the stupid one is the woman. They don't exist. Women won't stand for a commercial where a woman is made to look less than a man and there have been many boycotts and letter writing complaints. Women don't boycott when the men are made to look stupid and the men just let it go.

Kind of the same with jokes - go to a joke site and look for 'Ten Reasons a _____ is better than a Man' and read the comments. Then look up 'Ten Reasons a _____ is better than a Woman' and read the comments. Men tend to laugh at what they find funny and let the rest go. Some women tend to laugh at what they find funny and let the rest go but there always seems to be some that have to condemn the joke. Seems oversensitive to me but *shrug* I don't know their life...but I don't feel comfortable letting loose with them and since I can't tell those women from the other women - I stick to women I know.

AkAngel, I don't think "equal" is the same as "identical." Four quarters don't look or act the same as a dollar bill. You can't put the dollar bill in a parking meter, for example, or jingle it in your pocket. Nor could you use the quarters, say, as a straight edge when you're reading a chart. They're different, but they have the same buying power. I think of men and women like that. We are not the same, but we are equal.

My hubby unashamedly thinks of one profession he'd rather see a man in, than a woman. Firefighting. He himself is a big man, and he says if he were seriously injured and trapped in a burning building, he'd feel safer thinking the person coming to his rescue is physically capable of carrying him if necessary. Of course this rule doesn't apply 100%. Some women are bigger and stronger than some men. For this reason, I'd hate to see a blanket rule that says, "Women shouldn't be firefighters, because they're not as big and strong as men." I'd also hate to see a blanket rule that says, conversely, "Men shouldn't be elementary school teachers, because they're not as good with small children as women are." Not true in every case. To use your accounting example, I for one don't think I'm as good with detail and multitasking as my husband is. That's why he handles the finances in our household. Not because he's the man, but because he's better at it.

And you're right about the commercials designed to make men look like buffoons. Have you seen the one for the home improvement store, where the husband keeps trying to say they're finished with all their projects? Wife just looks at him, and he caves in like a card house, then buys more stuff for another project. In the end, the daughter (dressed identical to her mother) is also controlling her father with just a look. That particular commercial gets on my nerves. (I tried to find it online, but couldn't. Maybe that's a good thing.)

Now, about the reaction to the joke at the other site, I'm not quite sure I get you. Could you please explain it again? We were not condemning the joke. We joked back in the same spirit, and for *that* we were called "angry b...ches." I don't understand that at all. Unless, maybe the "angry b...ches" line was also meant to be a joke? In which case, I don't find it very funny. Nor do I find jokes funny when they put down men.

Thunder, I would think it rude of *anyone* to let the door swing back in your face. Whoever gets there first should hold the door open for the next one. That's how I see it.

Edited to sum it up in the same way I taught my daughters about gender AND racial equality.

You don't have to bash men in order to affirm women, or vice versa.
You don't have to hate white in order to love color, or vice versa.

And I still stand by that.

I dislike stereotyping. Also, equality means different things to different people. If I hold a door open for someone I never know if I will get a smile or a frown. I do it anyway, and gender makes no difference.

Equality of the sexes in theory should be easy to agree on. What is difficult is putting aside the stereotypes, personal preferences and prejudices. I doubt a definition of equality can be reached by consensus; more likely only by a plurality.

Then again, I have argued that common sense is a fallacy. Even the happily married often cannot agree on what sense is common.

Thanks for the thread, LovebirdsFlying.

Stereotypes can easily be wiped out, yet the media's really slaughtering some capable minds!!!! I have to say, some television shows, movies and the like stereotype characters just to get some viewers, but people in the real world seem to like these ways and become characters themselves.

Anyway, people don't seem to be watching their actions closely. Stepping back and reflecting on their own actions isn't difficult, but it seems be too daunting of a task to take on.
In all honesty though, I think everybody shold view others as being human, not some hot chick/stud or whatever the (arguably) degrading terms are these days, while being human themselves. In other words, everybody needs to be unbiased. Many people judge others and think they're right, blah, blah, blah, but do they ever look in a mirror? Jeez.

As a closing statement, I must say, "expect the unexpected."

[marjan]

very very interesting subject....thanks for bringing it up
I don't like the whole lady's first thingy either....I want both genders to respect each other....I would keep the door held open for my guys' coworkers if they are just few steps away from the door and I reached the door earlier....but I get embarrassed if we are walking all together and I'm the only woman in the group, then they say lady's first....
however, between my guy friends, I'm okay with that....and we joke about it....
I think it all depends on the situation.....

[Umbral_Seraph]

Men and women: Equal but not the same.

I believe that, unfortunately, there are a number women who make strong statements that they wanted to be treated equal but readily play the gender card or try to use sex to their advantage. (I also feel too many people say they are for equality but try to play the race card.)

I just don't understand why if a man holds a door for another man he's polite, but if he holds the door for a women he's sexist.
I've joked before that "chivalry is dead because women killed it", but there have too many instances where that painfully true.

Originally Posted by Umbral_Seraph

Men and women: Equal but not the same.

I believe that, unfortunately, there are a number women who make strong statements that they wanted to be treated equal but readily play the gender card or try to use sex to their advantage. (I also feel too many people say they are for equality but try to play the race card.)

I just don't understand why if a man holds a door for another man he's polite, but if he holds the door for a women he's sexist.
I've joked before that "chivalry is dead because women killed it", but there have too many instances where that painfully true.

I agree with everything you said. I'm glad I go to a church where, any time "women submit" is mentioned, they also say "men respect." I've had too much background with religious doctrines that stop at the "submit" part, and I've seen too many husbands, including my own father and my ex, play the "submit" card in order to get their own way all the time.

To answer your question from my point of view: A man who holds the door open for a woman is not being sexist, unless he holds the door open for a woman *just* for being a woman, and wouldn't do the same for another man. It's not the action. It's the way of thinking.

Understand: If I encounter a man who does such things as open the door for me, stand when I approach, tip his hat, give up his seat, or whatever, I will smile and thank him. I will not call him sexist. I will not get angry. I will not even hint at it. That's what he has been taught. He sees this as being polite, and I appreciate all efforts to be polite. But if I encounter a man who does NOT do those things, I don't mention it at all. I don't complain about chivalry being dead. I don't consider him rude. Who knows, he may be afraid of having his head bitten off.

The only time I would ask and expect a man (or another woman, for that matter) to hold the door open for me, etc., is when my arms are full, or there is some other physical reason why I would have trouble doing it myself. I mentioned in the OP that I have a physical disability, and I do appreciate the extra consideration. On *that* basis, not because I'm a woman. And I hope that a man with the same physical disability would be shown the same consideration.

My mind flashes back to my first marriage. We were out walking, can't remember where, and ex had a male friend with him. We'd crossed a parking lot, and the two men had stepped down from a small ledge onto the sidewalk underneath. My legs were shorter, and that ledge looked pretty intimidating to me. I hesitated, and ex backtracked to help me down. But not without saying something snide to his friend about, "Hold on, I've got to help the helpless woman." It was typical of his behavior. "No, I'm not going to pick my socks up. That's what a wife is for." This illustrates, number one, why he's an ex, and number two, maybe why I'm so sensitive about the issue.

[Umbral_Seraph]

I'm glad you don't think I'm sexist for holding the door. (I do it for everyone because it is supposed to be polite.) I and my very few friends have all had instances though, where this was interpreted as sexist. Thus, having never held a door just because someone was a women, I was a little confused.

It is sad that your exs seemed to lack a basic level of human decency.

I also want to mention that I hate women who will attempt to use the image of the "helpless maiden" to get someone to do work they don't want to do. (I guess the same could be said about sex, but I already mentioned that.)

[El-ahrairah]

I like when men hold the door for me, or if anyone holds the door for me, I think it's polite and when men do it it makes me feel like their mother's have taught right. If anything men are losing respect for women lol.

The way I see it is everyone should be treated with respect, regardless of gender.
My boyfriend opens a door for me, in return I reach over to unlock his door.
Common courtesy :3

Originally Posted by Umbral_Seraph

I also want to mention that I hate women who will attempt to use the image of the "helpless maiden" to get someone to do work they don't want to do. (I guess the same could be said about sex, but I already mentioned that.)

ME TOO!

My mind now goes back to sixth grade, when our class went camping for the weekend. Our (male) teacher wanted a picnic table moved, and called for some volunteer boys to help him move it. I was nearby with small group of girls. We heard the call, and we responded, "Boys? Whaddaya mean, boys? We can do it just as well as they can." We jolly well lifted and moved that picnic table ourselves, and the teacher was properly chastised.

I think a lot of that "eek, a mouse, let's climb on a chair and scream our heads off" behavior is posturing. It's a way of flirting to get the big, strong, man to come to her rescue. I was tipped off when dating that if a girl wants a lot of cuddling at the movies, she should have him take her to a horror flick and then pretend to be scared, whether she actually is or not.

As far as acts of service and division of labor in our house, we are motivated by love. Whichever one of us happens to be up getting a drink will ask the other, "Would you like one?" He'll bring me a soda one day, I'll bring him one the next. Chores are done on the basis of who does them better, not who is what sex. I take care of the cats. He manages the money. My physical limitations have decided that he should empty the dishwasher (but I load it), take out the trash (but I bag it), vacuum and mop (but I sweep) and do the majority of the laundry. Any other house cleaning, I do. He drives us anywhere we go, because my vision isn't good enough. He works at a job. I stay home. On the surface it looks like we have a very traditional breadwinner/homemaker relationship, and we both enjoy it very much. However, if someone were to tell me I have no choice, that I *must* remain at home and be the homemaker, simply because I am a woman, I'd be the first one to throw rotten eggs at that person.

Another instance from my life: A battle-of-the-sexes volleyball game I ended up dropping out of, when I was in college. I had been trying to rally the troops. "OK, ladies, let's show them we're just as tough as they are." But my teammates kept ducking and screaming every time the ball came near them. They'd whine, they'd complain, they'd whimper. "Oh, I broke a fingernail." And they even had the gall to say we should have a ten-point head start because they were bigger and stronger. The men were just eating it up. Pawing all over the whining women. "OK, baby. We'll take it easy." I ended up feeling so nauseatingly disgusted, I quit.

As someone observed later, "There were games going on, other than volleyball." Of course there were games. On both sides. Because the women weren't usually that helpless--and who were the men going after? The whinier and more helpless the woman, the more pawing she got.

And those games seriously go right straight to my stomach.

My reply to Jenkins:

First: I will point out that I believe in god, one god.

My beliefs have nothing to do with FACTS tho:
FACT: Humanity did not evolve only from the loins or ribs of males,
FACT: there was EQUAL woman and man in the creation of humanity (1 sperm: one egg)

you say that you believe women to be the 'help mate' of men,, you tout equality and then pull out quotes from a well read, widely distributed book full of frequently contradictory and often outdated concepts: please note the following:
Who walks anywhere these days - we drive,
I at home can turn water to wine
ambos frequently bring people back from the dead
FACTS

...PRO CHOICE, PRO EQUALITY, PRO EQUAL PAY AND ENTITLEMENTS!!!!...

^^And let me quietly remind all that I stated in the OP, "I'm not starting this thread to debate religious doctrine, however anyone feels about that."

Georgie, your viewpoint is as valid as Jenkins', but the Bible-bashing is offensive to me. Please, let's not turn this thread into a religious war.

[AkAngel]

Originally Posted by LovebirdsFlying

Now, about the reaction to the joke at the other site, I'm not quite sure I get you. Could you please explain it again? We were not condemning the joke. We joked back in the same spirit, and for *that* we were called "angry b...ches." I don't understand that at all. Unless, maybe the "angry b...ches" line was also meant to be a joke? In which case, I don't find it very funny. Nor do I find jokes funny when they put down men.

With respect, YOU were not bashing the joke or the joke teller, you do not know the motivation of the other women. To be fair, neither did the men and I certainly don't condone their name calling. When I good naturedly tell my (hypothetical) Polish friend a Polish joke and he MUST come back with an American Indian joke rather than just laugh (if it is funny) or groan (if it is not) it is a mark of insecurity.

It is an indication of security to be able to take a joke without having to retaliate. In fact, when I find myself the butt of someones joke, I often exacerbate my predicament by adding to the punchline. It is crude, but it happened yesterday and it is fresh in my mind (and the reason I added the trigger icon). Someone joked about the size of my privates to which I responded, "I may be little but at least it's skinny." Yes, I know, but it was an immature audience - my point is, it was a joke designed to make people laugh. My response was geared to make people laugh harder (which it did).

The situation you described seems more defensive than it does the women trying to keep the laughter going. I can't imagine a woman saying, "But, but...how's the poor prince going to get his laundry done now?!" That is in keeping with the spirit of the joke, self-depricating in a manner similar to the way that I responded yesterday and yet - even subtly implies that the prince is helpless without a woman.

Jokes are a way to relieve stress. If every joke is going to be countered, it's no fun any more. Jokes naturally play upon stereotypes, it is part of the humor in them - when they are responded to with logic, takes all the funny out of them. Sometimes telling a joke is just about relieving stress and if that was someone's goal, then being confronted with insecurity - or even having to face their own, defeated the purpose.

Originally Posted by LovebirdsFlying

You don't have to bash men in order to affirm women, or vice versa. You don't have to hate white in order to love color, or vice versa.

Amen. I would add only that true strength doesn't need self promotion.

[Rhiannonsmoon]

Originally Posted by LovebirdsFlying

So here's where I stand.

I don't even like "ladies first." I'd appreciate someone giving up a seat to me on the bus, or holding the door open for me, because I have a physical disability. But please don't feel obligated to do so just because I'm a woman. Although no, I'm not going to yell at a man who does that. He's probably been taught that way, and he is making a sincere effort to be courteous.

Hey LBF, really good discussion please don't take anything personally here

So how do you differenciate between each one? It's ok if they open a door for you because your "disabled" but because you're a woman? I think you need to work out why you have such issues. You will take what might be sympathy for your disability, but not for what might be because you are female.

Motive means everything. And a lot of people still think it's just common decency to let women go first. They call it "respect." Well, I disagree, that's all. I'd be more inclined to call it "respect" if I'm looked at as an equal, not a delicate being who requires special consideration. I also feel that since we women have worked hard for the rights we have--to vote, to own property, to be hired for the same jobs at the same pay, etc.--it would be hypocritical to turn around and demand preferential treatment on the basis of gender

.

Men are taught to be courteous and respectful, it is a victorian courtesy that women have come to appreciate and expect whether the suffregettes agree with it or not and those who are rude to someone being courteous shows no grace whatsoever.

(However, I'm still tempted to say, "Hey, there's a lady present!" when someone lets loose with a bunch of profanity. )

It seems you want it all your own way. I don't think this is about being a woman at all, I think it is about being deliberately obstropelous so that you can create a battle of the sexes. Someone who loves a good argument

Am I trying to be unfeminine? Absolutely not. I prefer dresses over slacks. My hair is very long. I enjoy wearing makeup and jewelry. I even legally changed the name I was given at birth, because I felt it was too boyish, and I wanted a name that was more clearly female. "I want to be equal" doesn't mean "I want to be a man."

But only you can declare yourself an equal. I've seen men hold doors open for other men and I believe that is common courtesy. No matter how you dress it is your attitude that determines your behaviour. I have no issue with being treated courteously, in fact I appreciate it. There is little appreciation for others in our world today and I think that has added to mental illness the world over.

I've got an uncle who doesn't like to hear any talk of "women's lib," and he will tell any woman who is at all upset with her husband, "Quit trying to be the boss. The man is supposed to be the boss." Well, he's referring to certain Bible verses. I'm not starting this thread to debate religious doctrine, however anyone feels about that. I'm only trying to say, it's not a matter of "trying to be the boss." I guess in my uncle's way of thinking, someone has to be superior. He doesn't seem to grasp the concept of equality. If a woman even hints about equal rights, his ears take it to mean, "Let's reverse roles completely, give the women all the power, and make the men grovel."

AH now we are getting to the nitty gritty...an uncle who is a chauvanist. I wouldn't mind betting that this guy is at least part of the reason you feel the way you do about men and their nefarious underhanded motives for offering to open a door for you.

Nope. Not trying to do that at all. Equality works both ways. "I want to be equal" doesn't mean "I don't like men."

I am equal to men, I don't have an issue or thought that I am not. So I'd really like to know why this makes you blow steam? is it a genuine issue brought about by being sunjected to your uncles (and probably others mens tirades), that needs work with a therapist? Usually once one gets to the root cause and settles it in their mind, the issue is no longer something that brings about an unecessary reaction,

Loving thoughts,

Rhia

I appreciate your feedback, Rhia, and I want to respond with the same polite intentions that you showed. I am not offended, and I don't want to offend you.

First, I want to note that I did not "create" a battle of the sexes. It has existed since Adam and Eve.

Second, I certainly do NOT love a good argument. In fact, I think there is no such thing as a "good" argument. Conflict is horrible. What I hope for in this thread is dialog, not debate. Everyone says his/her own piece, and all viewpoints are accepted, even if not agreed with. That's why I asked that people please don't get into a fight about the Bible. I'd like to hear your feedback on some of my other posts in this thread too, not just the OP.

You say you don't even have to think about the fact that you are equal. To you it is a given. I'd like to be as comfortable with it as you are, but when I see women and men treated differently on the basis of gender, for whatever reason, I can't say I see equality.

I notice that we are from different cultures. You are from a more liberal nation than I am, I think, and I am from an area in my country that is among the most conservative, at least where religion is concerned. Although I live in the Pacific Northwest now, I grew up in the South, in an area that's known as the "Bible belt." My uncle was not the only chauvinist in my family. In fact, his way of thinking was pretty much the norm in my environment. Most of the men who have been a part of my formative years thought like him. I singled my uncle out because he in particular was stuck on "quit trying to be the boss" any time a woman so much as asserted herself. I wanted to illustrate that he, for one, doesn't have a concept of equality. If a woman is not submissive, then she's trying to reverse the roles completely and wants men to grovel. That isn't what *I* want. That's what *he thinks* I, and other women who believe in equality, want.

My father and my first husband, on the other hand, were experts at using the Bible to get their own way. If there was a disagreement, they'd pull out those "women submit to your husbands" Scriptures and play them like a trump card, and a woman who wouldn't give in after that was just a Jezebel. Since then, pastors have reassured me that "submission doesn't mean, stay on the floor and let him walk all over you." In fact, one pastor's wife defined the word "submission" as "standing back so God can get a better shot at him."

This, however, relates little to what we have been taught is courtesy, but when you look beneath the surface, it's a reminder that women are "less" or "weaker." I don't mind at all when a man holds the door open for me, even if I were not physically disabled. That's not the issue. It's only an example of the issue. A man who would hold the door open for all women, and only women, just because they're women, I've got to wonder what his thinking is. I'm not angry, only wondering.

To me, treating a woman differently simply because she is a woman just doesn't make logical sense. What if the division were based on something else that is purely anatomical, rather than on gender? What if all green people (so I don't step on any toes) were taught that it is common courtesy to hold the door open for all orange people, just because they are orange people? What if all green people were expected to stand when an orange person enters the room, give up their seat to an orange person, always let the orange person go first, tip their hats to an orange person, help the orange person put on and take off a coat, light the orange person's cigarette, and so forth, again just because they are orange people and that's the way it's done? What conclusions would we draw from this? Does it sound fair?

hmm... sorry, i may have gone a bit off topic before...I apologise to you all..

relationships between people should be equal, with equal respect given to each of us for we are innately worthy of this, comming from the same place and ending in the same place and paying the same taxes...
however, all around us everyday there are imbalances of power,
from the boss employee power imbalance
to that of the father and child
to that of the customer/provider

does men opening doors for women reflect their belief in their own innate more-powerful than the other...
is it so they can perve on the womans butt...?
Do they think that it will get them laid?
Is it a conversation started/ice breaker?

I open doors for males and females... some people accept the gesture as one of, "I got to the door first adn would feel bad if it banged into you as it swang shut"... others do not accept the gesture...
I do not accept it from people i dislike or by those whom i feel threatened...then they are behind me I suppose... (better to have them in your sight?)

but also could it come back to that age old human thing of reciprocity?
if i open and hold that door for you, if i pick up the book you dropped, might you feel obliged to repay me in some form? thus by accepting the opening of the door you are agreeing to being locked into the reciprocation agreement, a contract of sorts?
Just an idea....

again, I apologise for placing my earlier statements here...
Ill keep them to other threads

[Rhiannonsmoon]

Hey LBF,

Thanks for not taking anything personal; sometimes it's difficult to put the correct inflection into what we write so calm and open communication is important.

To me, treating a woman differently simply because she is a woman just doesn't make logical sense.

I understand the statement but I still don't get how you are able to differentiate between the man who opens the door out of courtesy from the man who does it just because you're a woman? that doesn't make any sense at all,

Loving thoughts,

Rhia

Originally Posted by Rhiannonsmoon

Hey LBF,

Thanks for not taking anything personal; sometimes it's difficult to put the correct inflection into what we write so calm and open communication is important.


I understand the statement but I still don't get how you are able to differentiate between the man who opens the door out of courtesy from the man who does it just because you're a woman? that doesn't make any sense at all,

Loving thoughts,

Rhia

Oh, there's no way to know. And even if he is doing it just because I'm a woman, chances are that he's simply been taught it's polite. This is why I'd never get angry at a man for opening the door for me, or for any of those other courtesies, although I've seen women do that. In my opinion, the best way to educate people is not by getting angry when they break your rules, but by calm discussions like this one.

By the way, even offering assistance to a disabled person can be taken as an insult. I merely use a cane, but if I encounter someone in a wheelchair, for example, I ask them if they would like help, before I give it. Some people with disabilities pride themselves on being as independent as they can, and would feel reminded of their weakness, if someone just jumped in and did something for them.

My late aunt was mentally retarded. She could not function completely as an adult, and had to be under her mother's guardianship and supervision her entire life. She could never have lived competently on her own. But if someone tried to do for her what she could do for herself, she resented it and would say so. Loudly. Whatever she could take care of by herself, she jolly well did not want help with it.

Similarly, I think the courtesies toward women *originated* with the notion that women were somehow weaker and less competent than men, and needed those acts of consideration. Do you know why a groom carries the bride over the threshold on their wedding night? It came from the superstition that when entering a home for the first time, you must start with your right foot, or you would have bad luck. And women, it was thought, would be so flustered and emotional after having just gotten married, that they would forget. So it was safer for the man to carry her. Anyway, this doesn't mean that all men who do those things are thinking that women are weak and can't manage for themselves, but the traditions started out with that idea in mind.

Bottom line, I guess, is that I'm not one for doing things just because that's the way it's always been done.

George, thank you for your comments. I hope I wasn't too harsh with you. Interesting thought, that the courtesies put a woman in a man's debt somehow. Maybe it's akin to "I bought you dinner so you owe me something sexual." Hmmm.

[trance]

Talking things to death...hmmm...isn't that a female trait...lol...

[thunderbear]

Originally Posted by trance

Talking things to death...hmmm...isn't that a female trait...lol...

LOL I don't know about all females but it is definatly a trait of mine hahaha

[AkAngel]

Originally Posted by LovebirdsFlying

To me, treating a woman differently simply because she is a woman just doesn't make logical sense. What if the division were based on something else that is purely anatomical, rather than on gender? What if all green people (so I don't step on any toes) were taught that it is common courtesy to hold the door open for all orange people, just because they are orange people? What if all green people were expected to stand when an orange person enters the room, give up their seat to an orange person, always let the orange person go first, tip their hats to an orange person, help the orange person put on and take off a coat, light the orange person's cigarette, and so forth, again just because they are orange people and that's the way it's done? What conclusions would we draw from this?

I know the point that you are trying to make here but if you re-read this I think you'll find that orange people are treated as superior and that green people are to serve them. If I make an effort to forget you are talking about men and women and take the paragraph at face value, that's what I come up with.