I need your input, please!

Yup! That's pretty much what I've decided to do. "Full steam ahead and damn the torpedoes." And there WILL be torpedoes! I can count on that just as sure as I'm sitting here typing this. Ah, well...

What I REALLY want is to know is that I hold a higher place in my kids' heart than DEAD LAST!! I hold a higher place with anyone of you here on the board! But no... not with my own flesh and blood.

I like Petunia's and Wisewoman's answers. I would also let him bring tamales if that's what he wants. Mention that you're going to eat no later than 4pm (or whatever), though, so that they know that they'll have missed it if they show up at 5.

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What I REALLY want is to know is that I hold a higher place in my kids' heart than DEAD LAST!! I hold a higher place with anyone of you here on the board! But no... not with my own flesh and blood.

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My response to Davie's last email:

Um... well? Guess I wasn't clear enough in my first email. I wanted us to plan the thing Together. Here's what I've decided since a few of my Mexican neighbors want to get together and make tamales. Still haven't decided whether I'll get involved in that or not.

Menu:
Turkey
Garlic Shrimp
Stove Top Stuffing
Baked Sweet Potatoes
Mashed Potatoes
Cranberry/Jello salad
Texas Toast
Pumpkin Pie
Mincemeat Pie
Other assorted desserts

If you would cover the Baked Sweet Potatoes/Yams and whatever else you'd like, that would be fine. I'll cover the rest since I've bought almost everything, anyway. The only thing I haven't bought is the shrimp because of the cost. That's why I asked you if you all eat shrimp.

Five o'clock doesn't work for us. It's too late. Dinner will be 3-ish at my place. If you can't make it at that time, the microwave does a great job of heating up a dinner plate.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

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Yup! That's pretty much what I've decided to do. "Full steam ahead and damn the torpedoes." And there WILL be torpedoes! I can count on that just as sure as I'm sitting here typing this.

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Just like I said, the torpedoes are biggining to fly!! Guess my kids don't think I deserve to have my own feelings much less boundaries! I could say "screw them!" but I'm the one that suffered Thanksgiving, when I said that. So for now... I guess I bend backwards just a little bit more...

how much back bending are ya lookin at girl, and have ya told them to comprimise?? hummmmmmm

Sometimes I think the harder we try to get a certain response we get a power struggle.....can you all compromise...have the tamalies and say ok time can be sayyyy 4 ....or chuck the whole menu and say..ya know I dont wanna fight with you all and I know you dont ...lets all pick 2 foods and supply them and meet time wise in the middle? I have no family anymore Sept and would eat rice to be with them at any time even THEY chose..in time these issues will all be so moot to all of you...JUST enjoy one another ..I hope this doesnt sound harsh its NOT meant to be but man this looks like a power struggle of times and foods...sad

The bending back I'm looking at is just letting them have their way. If I get the shrimp, I'm getting enough just for me and Jerry.

David did compromise... an hour's worth... IF it's okay with his wife.

Oh, screw it!!

It's not a matter of food, for sure! If it's a matter of time, it's because they've made it later this year than previous years and I know David! He'll leave as quickly as possible!

You and I see eye to eye, Sleeps. The food doesn't matter one iota! It's the BEING TOGETHER that matters to me. But then being the kind of mother brought up in the "old school," I want to feed them something that's out of the ordinary! You know... "Mom's cooking!" And I'm a damned good cook, too!! What the F***! It doesn't matter any more, really. I'm to the point of forgetting what December 25th is supposed to mean AND forgetting that I ever had any kids. They would all rather spend special days with their inlaws! Fine!

If I make tamales, it's going to be with my neighbors and I'm NOT SHARING!!

(((((((((((Tomi))))))))))))

I'm so sorry. I don't know how I can help you.

Sept I know you want to do the cooking as mom but IF they really don't care then just have a nice time with them and if its 1 hr its some compromise...Like I was telling someone else .....last time I won a time to get together xmas my brother died on Jan 2nd...so what did I win....better to say screw the time..screw the food..lets just BE together and BE ...Doesnt really matter who wins..when you cannot see them the next xmas..wont matter on the wife...none of it I KNOW I have been in close shoes to yours. Just let it be so you can BE with family and enjoy them warts and all..I seldom come to this area of PC because I have lost my family in a lot of sudden ways and I see it from a different angle one only those who have lost it all can see

{{{{{{{{Time0}}}}}}}}

Sweety, you and my friends here never fail me. All of you care for me enough to make up for what's lacking with my kids. I just have to wonder what it was that I did wrong for all of them to have turned out not caring much about me. Oh, well. They're grown up and gone. They're on their own. I just have to pick up the pieces and move on myself.

You're right. I can't quite grasp your viewpoint. From my childhood, all I can remember is my grandmother's HUGE family getting together for all holidays. It's something engrained in me. Not something I can easily leave behind.

Already, my oldest son doesn't spend Thanksgiving with his extended family. Now Christmas is on it's way out, too. It didn't use to be this way. My DIL and I would get excited right after Thanksgiving planning Christmas. I don't understand the change. All I can see is them isolating themselves from my son's family of origin and I don't know why. They won't discuss anything except what THEY want. Anything else is "drama."

Maybe my DIL wanted to make tamales, but she also said that anything I wanted to do was okay with her. Oh, yeah?? Then why all this hassling back and forth? It's not the food and it's not the time. There's something else under all of this.

I guess I just feel like my back is against the wall. I can see myself being totally alone really soon. My husband has a really bad time with holidays and would rather forget them. There's absolutely NO support for me or my feelings from him. If I try to plan something just for him and me, I KNOW as sure as I'm sitting here we'll wind up in some horrible fight just like we did this last Thanksgiving. I still haven't recovered from it. Either I'm going to do something for myself or I'm going to sleep through the whole thing. I just don't care anymore.

Just had a realization... again... It's been this way my whole life, having to beg, grovel and crawl for any little scrap just to be turned down simply or getting kicked in the teeth. Only thing I can say for myself is that I'm TENACIOUS!! It's time to open the jaws and let the bite go, time to forget it all and like Sleep said, just BE. I'll just BE with ME. To blazes with everybody else. No more begging and getting nothing and IF I do, it just isn't worth it when all is said and done.

When my husband left me almost 8 yrs ago and I was disillusioned with a love right after that, I swore to myself that from then on, I'd be #1 or I wouldn't be at all. It's time to put that into practice.

Give me what's in your heart to give but if there's nothing there, well... I'll have to live with it somehow. So be it!

It's not your parenting Sept...it's the grasp that the world has on your children. When they get older...that may, or may not change.

It's a shame when the worldy stuff becomes more important than mother and child.

TGC!

Yeah, Tomi as I re-read this whole thread, it's reminding me a lot of my situation with my parents. I'm doing to them what David is doing to you. I told them that I wasn't flying out for either holiday this year, but that we could pick a different weekend and I'd come out then (I don't want to fly on holidays anymore). I'm sure they're feeling the same way you do. Part of the reason I dread the conversations now is because I feel PRESSURED. Like it's never enough with them. I have to worry about their feelings so much that I either live with tons of guilt or else flush my own feelings down the drain. They don't like my husband so they are snippy and rude to him, yet they still expect -- not want -- EXPECT us to bow to them for each holiday because of the tradition of spending it one's elders. I've spent hundreds at our T's trying to reconcile what we should do. If we go, we're miserable because we get a guilt trip for not going more often, and don't enjoy ourselves because a) we were pressured into going, and b) my parents' feelings toward my husband are thinly disguised. After all of the pressure, by the time we actually get there, there is resentment on all sides.

Could that be what's going on with David? You said that you're tenacious -- maybe that translates into 'pressuring' for him.

Would you be more likely to go cheerfully to a relatives' house (forget for a moment that he's your son) if you were pressured, or just invited?

Really hoping that's it in a nutshell, Dottie. How much older to they have to be? My oldest son is 38. The youngest is 26. The daughter that hasn't spoken to me in 8 yrs is 43! That isn't old enough? Not enough life's experiences? Oh, well.

You know... I was a damn good mother! I can affirm myself in that when the pain subsides a bit. Thank you for reminding me of that fact. I'm just gonna quit scraping off that callus that should be there by now.

(I want my mommy!! )

Two Of my children have all but forgotten me. I was always there for them. They were super towards me UNTIL they left home and melded with their environment. Their jobs and friends became everything to them. I am not seen as useful or necessary. They also see me as a moral failure because of my mental and emotional illnesses. One has 2 college degrees in the medical field and should know better.

This hurts...but you can't make your children love you. They become different people when they leave home. Sometimes it's a small change; Other times it seem like a monumental change. No mother should have to feel this pain.

Until/unless they come around you will have to rebuild your life. I am..and it's not been an easy task. Take care.

Ok, this is a good discussion because we have two generations here.

Why do parents want to feel "useful" or "necessary"? I don't WANT to see my parents that way. I would hope that they'd be going for "enjoyable" and "loving" and "compelling to be with".

I'm not picking on your words, Dottie. My parents feel exactly the same way you do. It bugs my dad to no end that I don't "need" him. Yet, he raised me to be independent - he got what he wanted for me. I never realized that it wasn't supposed to apply to him.

Did you (Tomi and Dottie) feel this way in your 30's? Is it something that changes as you get older? Did you ever have conflicts with your own parents about holidays vs independent decision making?

To me, it should be a choice, not an obligation. The more it feels like an obligation, the less likely I'm going to choose it. I'm quite certain that if my parents stopped pressuring and just accepted my decision either way, I'd be much more likely to CHOOSE to spend holidays at their house.

Hi. I don't think I made myself clear perhaps. Two of my four (4) children refuse to recognize me as their mother. They don't even phone me. It has been 5 years since I have seen or heard from them. My other two are quite different. We have a normal relationship.

If I had breast cancer..I wonder if I would then "qualify for their love and attention.

The "aloof 2" just don't and won't accept mental illness in the family. There definitely is a stigma in this country regarding mental illness. And when the rejection comes from your own children..it cuts... like a knife.

Post deleted by oksomaybeimnuts

Dottie, I'm sorry for your pain. I was talking in general terms. Your situation sounds very unique. You sound pretty sure that it's because of your mental illness, but have you talked to your T about whether you have behaved in a hurtful way toward them BECAUSE of your mental illness? I know from my own experience of being on the receiving end of someone with a M.I. that it's pretty hard to separate the behavior of the person's personality versus the illness. I belong to another support group for spouses/SO's of people with depression and bipolar, and anger, hostility, even violence is pretty common. Maybe there is a component of that in your 2 children's avoidance... not the illness itself, but the behavior that came out of having one? You don't have to answer -- it's just food for thought. This thread is about the holidays at SeptemberMorn's house, anyway.

OKNUTS - thank you very much for that perspective. I don't know if it helps the older people here to see a reminder that perhaps the "pulling away" is a common trend as younger people try to start their own traditions with their new families. Hopefully this data helps people feel less personally rejected, knowing that it's a natural phase that people go through.

Sorry Lmo...but you couldn't be more off base. And I don't have enough mental strength to list all of the particulars. Not all of my disabilities are emotional...many are physical in nature. There is a very real possibility that I may need surgery down the line. They know that and do not want to be inconvenienced in any way. Hard to admit. But that's where we are.

.......... all I gotta say to mean families.. and people.... is Get f ******