[firefighter369]

well I just got friend zoned for the 100th time (just a random number) and it SUCKS! no matter what I do I get friend zoned and im tired of it -.-

[High Treason]

I completely relate to this. It's very likely this happens because you're just too "friendly" with the women you want to be more than friends with. At least that was my problem.

I think some of us guys don't instinctively know how to escalate sexuality in our interactions with women, so we end up just acting like a buddy, and then that's all we become. "Nice guys" always lament the fact that women only want "bad boys." Well, the truth is they don't really want bad boys; they want someone who is confident and overtly sexual. These "bad boys" tend to be self centered and have an over-inflated ego which makes them believe themselves to be cooler than they are and god's gift to women... and they act like that... which comes across to many women (especially younger ones) as being confident and overtly sexual, so they are attracted to it.

NOTE: by "overtly sexual" I don't mean just trying to get in her pants or groping her all the time. That's just gross and annoying. I mean presenting yourself as a sexually capable being.

I never dated anyone in high school. I went through college dating a couple people, and then got married all without knowing this. I accepted every woman who seemed to want me because I didn't know how to attract the women I wanted. It was only after I was divorced and thrown back out into the dating scene, a little older and wiser, that I actually started realizing how to attract women.

Women don't have this issue because a large number of men are sexually attracted to them simply because they are female. This presents its own problems, so not to say women have it easy! But as men, women are not just sexually attracted to us by default unless we are just the most handsome guy in town. You have to present yourself to her as someone who is sexual and confident.

The best way to do this is simply by believing it yourself. I realize that this is very difficult, but you might try changing your appearance, buying some new clothes or something so that you feel sexually attractive and are confident in yourself, and that will come across. Make sure she knows you are interested in her as a woman, not just as a buddy. That doesn't mean confess your love or something, that's just creepy. I mean through your actions, compliment her appearance, touch her hand or arm as you talk to her, ask her out to do things that are unmistakably dates... I know this is difficult because you open yourself up to rejection, but that comes back to the confidence part.

Also, practice makes perfect.

I know it's difficult but if I can figure out how to get out of the friend zone, anyone can :-)

[Anika.]

As a women I will comment on the part about by default not being sexually attracted to a man unless he is the most handsome guy in town. Even sexual attraction depends a lot more than on looks alone. For myself I agree about confidence.

I have met lots of "nice guys" or men that call themselves that and I have turned some of the nice guys down. They didn't come across that nice to me tho. They seemed to use manipulative tactics to try to real me in. Sometimes that is how it comes across, maybe they didn't realize it either. But a soon as I didn't recipicate their feelings and in a very nice way suddenly they not only did not want to be my friend, like they said they were.. they also became spiteful and vindictive. That really did not reinforce to me that they were nice. That anyways has been my experience with all the "nice guys" I have known.

I don't want bad boys either. I looked for someone who was confident, someone who "I" thought was funny, kind, accepting, loyal, honest, someone who's personality complimented mine and mine theirs. Most of all I was looking for someone who could be authentic with me, someone who could be strong but also volnerable. Someone who knew their stregths but was not afraid to see their weaknesses as well, that is confidence to me. Someone who would trust me as I would trust them. So many things.. tho looks were really not my top priority. Being born with certain facial traits due to genetics doesn't really mean a whole lot. And in this day in age, we are a bit past survival of only the best genetics I think.

I think High Treason gave you a lot of good advice. Just be you, have confidence in yourself, have fun, and remember that you also are looking for someone that meets your needs, not just anyone can do that. You are not just trying to get hired for the job so to speak, you are also interviewing them as well to se if they are right for you. It can be easy to loose sight of that and focus on what they are looking for, but it destroys confidence in yourself at the same time.

I am a female, but I have been there also, just don't give up on yourself finding someone to share life with. Maybe a different approach, it took me a long time to find my confidence, but I did find it. I really think you can too. Do you know specifically what you are looking for in a girl?

[firefighter369]

Originally Posted by High Treason

I completely relate to this. It's very likely this happens because you're just too "friendly" with the women you want to be more than friends with. At least that was my problem.

I think some of us guys don't instinctively know how to escalate sexuality in our interactions with women, so we end up just acting like a buddy, and then that's all we become. "Nice guys" always lament the fact that women only want "bad boys." Well, the truth is they don't really want bad boys; they want someone who is confident and overtly sexual. These "bad boys" tend to be self centered and have an over-inflated ego which makes them believe themselves to be cooler than they are and god's gift to women... and they act like that... which comes across to many women (especially younger ones) as being confident and overtly sexual, so they are attracted to it.

NOTE: by "overtly sexual" I don't mean just trying to get in her pants or groping her all the time. That's just gross and annoying. I mean presenting yourself as a sexually capable being.

I never dated anyone in high school. I went through college dating a couple people, and then got married all without knowing this. I accepted every woman who seemed to want me because I didn't know how to attract the women I wanted. It was only after I was divorced and thrown back out into the dating scene, a little older and wiser, that I actually started realizing how to attract women.

Women don't have this issue because a large number of men are sexually attracted to them simply because they are female. This presents its own problems, so not to say women have it easy! But as men, women are not just sexually attracted to us by default unless we are just the most handsome guy in town. You have to present yourself to her as someone who is sexual and confident.

The best way to do this is simply by believing it yourself. I realize that this is very difficult, but you might try changing your appearance, buying some new clothes or something so that you feel sexually attractive and are confident in yourself, and that will come across. Make sure she knows you are interested in her as a woman, not just as a buddy. That doesn't mean confess your love or something, that's just creepy. I mean through your actions, compliment her appearance, touch her hand or arm as you talk to her, ask her out to do things that are unmistakably dates... I know this is difficult because you open yourself up to rejection, but that comes back to the confidence part.

Also, practice makes perfect.

I know it's difficult but if I can figure out how to get out of the friend zone, anyone can :-)

the girl I like actually asked me to hang out with her...we are going to shoot some of my guns this Saturday....the way I dress it the way I dress....boots,jeans tshirt orr flannel if im going out an old ball cap....im sorry I would rather stay single for the rest of my life then change for a girl....but this girl after this girl asked me to hang out and go shooting she said something I didn't want to hear..."your like my best friend" but I got out of the friend zone before I can do it again and I have confidence in myself...I don't go around acting like im gods gift to the ladies but I do believe im an okay looking guy...but anyway thank you for your advice! ill take it and learn from it!

[High Treason]

Oh, believe me, I am the last person who will ever tell you that you should change for a girl. I certainly never have. I have incredibly long hair which hasn't been in fashion on men since the mid-90's at the latest, I dress in jeans and an untucked button-down shirt every day of my life with a floppy old fedora propped up on my head. And that's the way I like it! What I meant was you can make a few changes that make YOU happy and feel better about yourself. Don't do it for anyone else. I don't know what that would be for you, the new clothes idea was just one example, but it should be for you to feel like you look really cool and are really cool and if you think it, you'll find other people start thinking it. Even if you're not particularly lacking in confidence, everyone can use a confidence boost every now and then and a great way to do it make some change about yourself for the better.

And now, some particularly good quotes from Anika:

Originally Posted by Anika.

I have met lots of "nice guys" or men that call themselves that and I have turned some of the nice guys down. They didn't come across that nice to me tho. They seemed to use manipulative tactics to try to real me in.

This is very true. This is what I was talking about with being overtly sexual in your courting of women. Make sure she has no doubts whatsoever that you want a sexual relationship with her. If you try to sneak in through the back door by acting like her friend first and trying to escalate from there, first off that rarely works which is the whole reason the concept of "friend zone" even exists, and secondly, it's downright deceitful and not very nice at all. You're intent is not to be her best friend, it's to be her lover. You'll have a lot more success if you just make sure that's out in the open right away. It sounds like you may have the requisite confidence, but just aren't being sexually overt enough. Yes, this will ensure that you get rejected a lot earlier on if she's not interested in that with you... but then you know where you stand and you can decide from there whether to cultivate a friendship with her or move on. It's just so much more efficient for everyone involved.

Originally Posted by Anika.

remember that you also are looking for someone that meets your needs, not just anyone can do that. You are not just trying to get hired for the job so to speak, you are also interviewing them as well to see if they are right for you.

This is also very much true, and actually just as true of job interviews. I go into a job interview with the intention of evaluating the company for whether it's going to be a good fit for me to work there, not begging them for a job.

[firefighter369]

Originally Posted by High Treason

Oh, believe me, I am the last person who will ever tell you that you should change for a girl. I certainly never have. I have incredibly long hair which hasn't been in fashion on men since the mid-90's at the latest, I dress in jeans and an untucked button-down shirt every day of my life with a floppy old fedora propped up on my head. And that's the way I like it! What I meant was you can make a few changes that make YOU happy and feel better about yourself. Don't do it for anyone else. I don't know what that would be for you, the new clothes idea was just one example, but it should be for you to feel like you look really cool and are really cool and if you think it, you'll find other people start thinking it. Even if you're not particularly lacking in confidence, everyone can use a confidence boost every now and then and a great way to do it make some change about yourself for the better.

And now, some particularly good quotes from Anika:


This is very true. This is what I was talking about with being overtly sexual in your courting of women. Make sure she has no doubts whatsoever that you want a sexual relationship with her. If you try to sneak in through the back door by acting like her friend first and trying to escalate from there, first off that rarely works which is the whole reason the concept of "friend zone" even exists, and secondly, it's downright deceitful and not very nice at all. You're intent is not to be her best friend, it's to be her lover. You'll have a lot more success if you just make sure that's out in the open right away. It sounds like you may have the requisite confidence, but just aren't being sexually overt enough. Yes, this will ensure that you get rejected a lot earlier on if she's not interested in that with you... but then you know where you stand and you can decide from there whether to cultivate a friendship with her or move on. It's just so much more efficient for everyone involved.


This is also very much true, and actually just as true of job interviews. I go into a job interview with the intention of evaluating the company for whether it's going to be a good fit for me to work there, not begging them for a job.

im not trying to sneak into a relationship....sure I like this girl but I would want her in my life ether as friends or as more. I think im to nice like I always roll over on my back and submit...I think that's my problem right their....im not saying that's always the case but it happens....thank you for your support! it means awhole to me.

[firefighter369]

Originally Posted by Anika.

As a women I will comment on the part about by default not being sexually attracted to a man unless he is the most handsome guy in town. Even sexual attraction depends a lot more than on looks alone. For myself I agree about confidence.

I have met lots of "nice guys" or men that call themselves that and I have turned some of the nice guys down. They didn't come across that nice to me tho. They seemed to use manipulative tactics to try to real me in. Sometimes that is how it comes across, maybe they didn't realize it either. But a soon as I didn't recipicate their feelings and in a very nice way suddenly they not only did not want to be my friend, like they said they were.. they also became spiteful and vindictive. That really did not reinforce to me that they were nice. That anyways has been my experience with all the "nice guys" I have known.

I don't want bad boys either. I looked for someone who was confident, someone who "I" thought was funny, kind, accepting, loyal, honest, someone who's personality complimented mine and mine theirs. Most of all I was looking for someone who could be authentic with me, someone who could be strong but also volnerable. Someone who knew their stregths but was not afraid to see their weaknesses as well, that is confidence to me. Someone who would trust me as I would trust them. So many things.. tho looks were really not my top priority. Being born with certain facial traits due to genetics doesn't really mean a whole lot. And in this day in age, we are a bit past survival of only the best genetics I think.

I think High Treason gave you a lot of good advice. Just be you, have confidence in yourself, have fun, and remember that you also are looking for someone that meets your needs, not just anyone can do that. You are not just trying to get hired for the job so to speak, you are also interviewing them as well to se if they are right for you. It can be easy to loose sight of that and focus on what they are looking for, but it destroys confidence in yourself at the same time.

I am a female, but I have been there also, just don't give up on yourself finding someone to share life with. Maybe a different approach, it took me a long time to find my confidence, but I did find it. I really think you can too. Do you know specifically what you are looking for in a girl?

I show my weaknesses...I show them that I can be strong when needed and put their needs before mine...but I can also be weak....this girls birthday is coming up and I plan on buying her,her favorite flower...tiger lilly's. she told none of her ex boyfriends bought her flowers...she always bought them herself....I want to surprise her with those flowers to show her that not all guys are like that...ya know?

[NoCake]

Just make sure you're trying to have fun instead of just trying to impress her.

[firefighter369]

Originally Posted by NoCake

Just make sure you're trying to have fun instead of just trying to impress her.

good point! but im always having fun :P

Oh, the friend-zone, a zone I am not that familiar with but one that I have experienced nonetheless.

As I said in the Men's forum, I don't make an effort to ask these kind of questions or make these kinds of forums anymore because there never is an answer I can understand; indeed, asking questions about relationships or women I find leads to more questions and vague non-explanations.

Confidence, I am told, is attractive, and that is what women seek in a man. (I hate this advice – it's so cliche and hollow IMHO.) But the interesting thing I find about confidence is how to acquire it – how does someone who has no supportive relationships develop confidence to be attractive?

Volunteer? I do that but I am not confident. Join a club? I am a member of a club and I am still not confident. All these do is provide brief, feel-good moments, not help me develop confidence.

It's like experience and employment. You need experience to find employment, but where do you acquire experience if not from employment?

Moreover, the fact that confidence is treated as the be-all and end-all is absurd to me, because how many of us have low confidence? If it is such a common human condition it seems irrational for that to be the defining feature of whether or not a woman likes a man (or for anyone to like anyone else). Frankly, while others might disagree, I think there are far worse characteristics in a potential partner than low self-confidence (ex. cheater, manipulative, hurtful, abusive, etc.). Confidence, to me, seems like such a shallow attraction.

What I think makes more sense is what my T told me a few months ago – that relationships don't define but reflect back who we are.

Really, I think we need to be more honest with each other, because I don't think it is helpful to anyone if we all dance around these mysterious social interactions and be totally confused with what the other is doing and what they want.

Apologies for the long rant.

[Confusedinomicon]

I think Mr. V is right because my boyfriend is a reflection of who I am. Neither of us were confident or full people when we met. Both of us were depressed and struggling. It was his relation to my emotional low and the mystery of the internet that brought us together. I dont think I could do this in rl because I was pretty shy and loves the anonymity of the internet.

[Anika.]

Confidence in yourself has to be built, and can be an on going task. Most people are not just born with it. It doesn't come from clubs or volunteering. Maybe that could help but really no, it comes from within.

It would be hard to build on it if you do not see the importance of it. It is one thing that allows people to take risks to persue goals, to change what they might need to change, challenge themselves, to carry on even through difficult times. It helps create more healthy balanced relationships, it helps create happiness in life.

In relationships.. It has a direct effect on how we relate to others, from what we can give to what we can recieve, how we interact, how we trust, how we work through issues, how we see our partner. Basically it has a direct effect on "how" we love ourself and others. How could that not be important?

Cheater, manipulative, abusive, can all come out of low self confidence as well. Not that everyone with low self confidence behaves that way, but it does not cultivate long lasting healthy relationships and brings many problems to the table with it. Including doubt or acceptance of the otgers persons love for you.

Mr.V, I don't think most people are lookin for someone with perfect self confidence, as that does not exist and self confidence does fluxuate at times, but are looking for someone who values them selves and is self assured in their abilities. Which translates into the ability to both love and be loved in a healthier way. If relationships reflect back what we are, what does the relationship of people with low self confidence look like? I know when I had no self confidence and had a partner who didn't either, the reflection was quite scary and painful.

Just because people have low self confidence and do not change that, doesn't mean we should just say.. Well lots of people do it sooo we shouldn't worry about it. I say people do it, not as judgement but it also is a choice, to remain in it or change. There has to be self accountability about it changing or it will not change. No matter how we got there. It is not healthy, it does not create peace or content in ones life, much the opposite. That is hard to overlook. I don't believe that anyone can not cultivate self confidence. If I cannot be confident in myself, then I probably cant be very confident in my partner, or in the relationship, or in life itself. It can create a lot of doubt. Someone who has no interest in working on there own self confidence might also not have interst in changing other things as well, and that might be why people are wary. Change is often how we get through life and feel fullfilled. Life does require change. That is my opinion.

I hope that makes sense, I think it is an important factor in our wellbeing.

Confused, I don't think that is what the therapist meant. Not that your partner is a reflection of you but the relationship itself, still a relationship is more than one person, more than one reflection. Realationships still can work even with low self confidence, but honeslty it does create problems, and could be easier and healthier with healthy amounts of self confindence.

[Confusedinomicon]

I think his point was there are better adjectives to describe what you want/need in a partner. Confidence as a concept is vague. How you define it depends on your perception. Confidence is also based on body language and if you cant read it then the idea of it canto be lost. Concepts like self-love often have distinguished guidelines of what it is/isn't based on contextual clues. Even this can be lost if the individual cant relate to the topic.

[Open Eyes]

What can't you consider it as a "resource" instead of a problem. Having women friends can give you an opportunity to learn more about women, get advice and may connect you with that special someone someday.

I hope you at least maintain these "friendships" as it is better to have women say "he's a really nice guy" verses "I thought he was a nice guy but he got strange and moody".

Open Eyes

[Anika.]

Confused, I gave many things or examples of things I was looking for, I also listed that as a top one

I was explaining why this is important to a lot of people. I have. And I feel that does belong here. I understood his point, but I dont agree. I feel perfectly fine with what I said and I stand by it. Offering my opinion on the matter, and trying to explain it a bit better is how I choose to address that.