[moooo2u]

coming up on 23 years of marriage and the last few have been pretty rocky. I had gone into therapy to deal with stress, anxiety, and depression after a blowup with my wife where she told me to "go fix myself". Was in therapy solo for awhile but more blowups turned it from my sessions into marriage counseling with both my wife and me. We've been out of counseling for a few months due to health issues of the therapist but she should be back to work in a couple weeks. I am not an emotionally expressive person. I'm not sure if what I'm am doing is wrong or if my wife is a bi-polar narcissist who wants our relationship to be like teenagers in love. We just had a blowup where I tried to explain my feelings to her about how she makes me feel - big mistake. She had stopped wearing a wedding/engagement ring after one of our blowups but she had stopped wearing our actual wedding/engagement ring because of weight gain so she used various costume pieces as those and that's what she took off. I did not notice that she stopped wearing them because I don't really consider the costume pieces wedding rings and I did not realize that she stopped wearing them because she symbolically left me. After i started to "fix myself" things got better and she got another ring for me to put on her and I felt that this was manipulative. I should not have told her I felt that way. I should not tell her that I feel that she takes and takes and never gives. Whenever I tell her how I feel - it ends up that my feelings are incorrect and that I'm hurting her by feeling this way. She says she can't actually leave me because she has nowhere to go - her mother lives a mile away in a house by herself but she really doesn't get along with her mother - and of course, that's because of her mother. She can't seem to work even though we can't pay our bills even though I work long hours at a job I hate and make enough that we should be able to live well on. She doesn't understand when I say its not that I want her to get a job, its that I want her to truly believe that she should be helping with finances somehow. She makes tons of jewelry that she doesn't sell. She spends long hours volunteering in PTA (past president in each school and then president of presidents) and is now a member of the School Board. All of this is not paid but takes extensive time and dedication and she does it well. I worry a lot. I live my entire live to please others and that is what therapy has been helping me with - understanding that i don't have to be perfect for people to like me and that I can do things for myself and that I am worth something for who I am. I've not actually made it to really believing any of those things but I'm working on it. I feel like I'm drowning and with this latest blowup I have no idea what to do. She says she wants me to let her go and that she wants to leave but can't. I'm certainly not going to leave my home and family - I believe my girls rely on me for some sanity - but I'm probably delusional about that as well. My older daughter is doing auditions for college and she specifically wants me to take her to the auditions because I don't make her nuts like her mother does - I feel that i provide a environment that is supportive and where they can do their own thing and know that I will be there but my wife provides a somewhat stressful environment for some reason. Can't tell her that though. Also, she says she doesn't just take take take but how can she says she wants to leave me and then still live in the house that I pay for, ask me to fix her computers, drive the cars I pay for and insure, and not see that as taking. I give these things freely and while I worry and struggle to pay for them I do not expect anything - its part of my role - its what I do. Below are some emails that she started the thread after we tried to talk and it went nowhere so apparently she felt email was better - btw - I'm the one that goes to her to try to talk only to continue to be beaten over the head and given no way to make anything better - at least that I can see.

Emails:
from my wife
So. You think that in order to move forward you would have to "acquiesce" to my "bullying". The fact that you are not capable of apologizing for hurting me...even now that the perceived "attack" is over is what is a huge problem. You are just going to keep on hurting me and hurting me and hurting me...and keep on telling me that it is my problem that I am not happy and too bad. You are entitled to your feelings. My feelings express a desire to be with the man that I loved and I married in a good solid marriage where love isn't implied but expressed. The feelings you express are all about what a pain in the *** I am and how I expect everything to be perfect and how you felt manipulated because I put a ring back on my finger are all very hurtful...And you say them again and again and don't see anything wrong in saying these things and in saying anything different you feel that you would be acquiescing. You don't even see anything wrong with that. But you want me to take blame for causing trouble because i want what I want from this marriage. There is an impasse here. I thought we made progress in therapy...this is the same **** as before.

You have expressed nothing different or differently. This is not about a checklist or a test...this is about how your actions make me feel. For days all we have had is small talk and talking about the house and the car and the kids. On Valentine's Day...a day I know that means nothing to you...you choose to say a few words and then walk out of the room. Go ahead...say "Here she goes again...it wasn't good enough." Problem is...this has happened before on a Valentine's Day. It hurt me then. And you keep doing the same thing again and again...even after going through it before. Same old story. It is not that it wasn't good enough...it was the same as before. Nice of you to not want me to have nothing for Valentine's Day...you only showed me that I don't.

my response
I have repeatedly apologized for hurting you. I will apologize again. I'm sorry I hurt you. I'm sorry that I fail at meeting your needs although I try and try. I don't want you to hurt, I want you to be happy and safe and comfortable and to feel loved. I'm sorry that I fail at that. I cannot express my feelings very well and you know that and I'm sorry for that as well. Hurting you is the last thing in the world that I would want to do. You are a wonderful person that just wants to be loved and I'm sorry that I fail at that and I'm sorry that I hurt such a wonderful person who wants nothing more than to be happy and loved. You deserve much better than me although I'm trying to learn to express my feelings. I guess I'm just not trying hard enough and I'm failing at that as well and for that I am sorry. I'm sorry that I've said anything bad about you and clearly you don't manipulate or bully - you have needs that I am not meeting and your hurt and I respond poorly to the criticism and for that I am sorry and I'm sorry for the hurt that those things cause you. My problems are not with you - my problems are with me and for that I am sorry. I'm sorry that my problems with me end up hurting you. As I said, hurting you is the furthest thing from what I want to do and I'm sorry that I hurt you. I will go back to therapy as soon as she returns - supposedly near the end of Feb. I'm sorry that Valentines is not my favorite day because I feel its a fake holiday and instead I should consider your feelings and do what I can to make it a special day for you just like I should make every day a special day for you. I'm sorry that I allow the worries of trying to provide for the family to cloud my feelings. Again that is something that I need help with and I'm sorry for that.

her response

You have NOT repeatedly apologized for these most recent events...you have very far from apologized and just simply continued to twist the knife. Enough with the word "fail". Backtracking now to tell me how "wonderful" I am is just empty words.

You miss the point about Valentine's Day. I can respect your feelings about it being a forced Hallmark holiday...that would all be well and good if love was expressed openly all throughout the year. But when you don't get that and don't even get it on the designated day because your partner doesn't want to get forced into it you question what the true feelings of your partner is. We have been through this before. Which is why your timing today was almost mocking of me...at least the ring thing meant something to me...Valentine's Day means nothing to you. My request is that you do things from the heart...should I have to ask for this???? I feel that i have begged for this...which translates to you as the needy ***** stuff...I am not a Princess ( as you have craftily pointed out). Everyday in my life does not have to be "special". We had a situation with Sam that I was so happy that we handled together as a team...and I said that before...we are usually good at parenting together. And I thanked you for that. But moving on to the two of us...you have no other needs from me other than cooking and cleaning and laundry and contributing to the household...all of which I am admittedly not that great at. I would love you to the end of the earth...but you don't need that from me either. I need that from you...I thought you had figured that out. But I have learned in a horrible way that this is only a drain on you and something you resent. Lines from songs...my love don't cost a thing...i don't know much, but I know I love you and that may be all there is to know...There are others but i don't really care to shove more **** down your throat.

I was getting more notice from others than from you. I dyed my hair and you didn't even ****ing notice. And Sue said with a wink wink...oh look at you...Eric loves it when you are a redhead...HA...HA...HA. Loves it? Didn't notice. Why should he?

When things were going well i would post and email cute things and you wouldn't respond at all...fine ignore me. But come to me and comment when i make a cute remark about being a Princess. You want leeway????? Never even bothered me until you told me that I don't cut you a break. I was so happy things were on the right path...who cares if you don't respond.

But there is a straw that breaks the camel's back. Things that are let go suddenly matter. Because you question your own judgement as to whether or not you should have overlooked certain ****.

You either feel or not. You love or not. Our financial situation never colors how i feel for you. Not the same for yourself or how you feel for me. Sad.

I explained in Joanne's office that expectations from a relationship with your husband are much different than expectations from others. This is not a domestic issue but an emotional one. If you are not able to understand that difference I understand...but I can no longer live my life this way. Plain and simple. Hire a housekeeper and/or a nanny and/or a hooker. They can meet all your needs without the emotional garbage. And leave me to live a life where I can find someone who can express to me that I am more than a drain and yet convenience in their life.

Worrying about providing for our family is not what led us into this ****ing abyss...according to you it was me turning something positive into something negative and WTF is that. Party on dude...your world is just fine. Your meals will be made and your laundry will be done...thank you for providing for me as best you can...I really do appreciate it. Apparently we have failed each other but I am the only one left in sorrow that we live together alone.

another response from her
And once again I ask you...because you need to assess this for yourself. Is it more of an effort for you to show affection and love than it has been for you to hold back from it since I "left you". Be honest to yourself about it...i know what the answer is. "i can't make you love me if you don't...i can't make your heart feel something it won't..."

I imagine this time has been quite easy on you...while I try to exist without the man who was supposed to love me but instead resents me and tiptoes around me I raje what I can get. i

my responses
In my way I show my affection and love in everything that I do. I'm sorry that this is not enough. As I said I'm sorry I allow the daily pressures of life cloud my feelings. I'm sorry and I will be back in therapy soon.
As for the time being quite easy on me, no, you are all that I have and you have abandoned me and destroyed my world. I merely exist at this point. I am lost and I do not know what to do and my world is crashing into a pile of ****. I am aware that this is of my own doing and I have no one to blame but myself.
I am sorry.
and
Clearly you are right and I must not have apologized and for that I am sorry as well. I'm sorry for thinking that I did apologize. I'm sorry that you feel that my apologies are empty because they are not - I truly am sorry that I do not meet your needs.

[hamster-bamster]

I can definitely see from her writing style how she can be a successful PTA president... you poor guy...

[LovelaceF]

Hi mooo2u,

I sympathize with your post. Things can get so twisted and tense in a long relationship and arguments become about other things when there are years of underlying pain and resentment.

What I really and truly think about your post is that this is fixable if you want it to be, but it looks like you are going to have to make the first move. Your wife is practically begging for affection in those emails. She is also telling you how hurt she is by your negative opinions of her "bullying" and so forth.

When someone truly has remorse for hurting someone, they will humble themselves and ask for forgiveness. However, you don't want to "acquiesce", which tells me that you haven't let go of your sense of right in this argument.

Clearly, you are very angry. It also sounds as if you're new to asking for your needs to be met. So, your wife should cut you some slack and try to communicate with you more effectively.

You definitely need to have your needs met too. You deserve to live your own life and do things that fulfil you as well. However, instead of saying things in a negative way, such as you want her to "truly believe that she should be helping with finances somehow", I think you need to find a more gentle avenue of communication. Your therapist should be able to help there, but I see that she's not currently available.

So, I think perhaps you should try to have an impersonal and civil conversation with your wife about her working, and try to keep in mind that she may have never planned to work once getting married. Changing such a life altering plan is not something to be taken lightly and will probably require lots of soul searching for her.

Hang in there!

[hamster-bamster]

What was so difficult about taking the wedding ring to a jeweler's to have it expanded to fit her fatter finger??

[hamster-bamster]

In terms of working - if she is used to running organizations as an elected president, she probably won't settle for anything less than a CEO of a mid-size company. Since with her resume she cannot qualify for that immediately, she is unemployable for practical purposes.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by moooo2u

I live my entire live to please others and that is what therapy has been helping me with - understanding that i don't have to be perfect for people to like me and that I can do things for myself and that I am worth something for who I am. I've not actually made it to really believing any of those things but I'm working on it. ... bipolar narcissistic

regarding things for yourself - you absolutely need alone time to engage in activities that benefit nobody but you. whatever it is (masturbation, visiting museums or watching movies alone or spending time with your own friends or exercise in the park) is up to you but you must do it, for therapeutic purposes.

[avlady]

I read your whole story and letters, really don't know what to say, but she sounds pretty desperate for some kind of love, maybe she wishes you were more romantic, or just can't handle the fact that marriages do change people and we grow with each other and you are going to different phase of your marriage. Maybe things can work out maybe with therapy, at this time it seems like a T could help.

Originally Posted by avlady

I read your whole story and letters, really don't know what to say, but she sounds pretty desperate for some kind of love, maybe she wishes you were more romantic, or just can't handle the fact that marriages do change people and we grow with each other and you are going to different phase of your marriage. Maybe things can work out maybe with therapy, at this time it seems like a T could help.

I agree that she says she wants an emotional connection with him but at the same time if you look at his responses, you'd see a man that is quite possibly with a more assertive and demanding -- even possibly controlling woman. He seems like a guy that may be a submissive personality and is with someone very critical and demanding. She minimizes the fact that he feels like he apologizes a lot and I believe him to an extent considering his reply to her is nothing but a huge apologetic reply. I can't see that being a single shot thing.

I dealt with this with my ex. She was demanding and controlling and funny thing is she accused me of much of the same things. Funny thing too is that now that she's in a life where she has to actually fend for herself now, she's realizing all that i did for her. Although she was the dominating one, I was the one that kept her afloat.

I may be wrong, I know this but that's what I see from this post.

[hamster-bamster]

Reread more attentively... Yeah, you should notice when your wife dyes her hair red. It should not be difficult unless you are completely unaware of your immediate environment. She did deserve to be noticed.

[IceCreamKid]

Only because you have asked for help will I comment. This is what I gather from what you have posted: You are in a power struggle with your wife. Neither of you values what the other person values. Both of you harbor grudges, secret wounds, and a strong desire to be "in the right."

I've also observed over the years a lot of couples who come together because each lacks what the other has: the strong silent man, the happy-go-lucky bubbly woman. Only problem is a few years into the relationship it becomes "he won't talk to me" and "She won't contribute to the finances... nor shut up, ever!"

I think therapy is a good idea for you. If your wife really wants her needs met, therapy for her would be a good idea too. In the short term if I were you I would come right out and tell her that you are feeling the stress of financially keeping the family afloat and while you appreciate all of your wife's skills re: the school activities, she could have been doing similar work all these years and getting paid for it and you would like for her to get a J-O-B.

Valentine's day has been around longer than Hallmark. I don't believe it when people carp about things "being made up" holidays when what they really are objecting to is being in what they perceive to be the suitor's (and inferior) position with hat and box of candy in hand. I have always enjoyed buying things, making things, cooking things, and saying things to let my friends, loved ones, co-workers, random strangers on the street, know that they are noticed, liked, loved, appreciated. I have never regretted expending this effort and it has actually cost (monetarily) very little. The good feelings I have gotten back have been far more.

If your wife hasn't worked for pay, I am not surprised she doesn't regard your bringing home a paycheck as more important than a valentine. She's been living in her bauble filled world all these years; so why are you rocking her bejeweled boat?

She expected you to feel warm and fuzzy about yet another piece of jewelry on her wedding ring finger, when most men don't give a rat's left hindquarter about jewelry.

Some of what you are hurt "at" each other about could be solved by both of you having other emotional outlets -- and by that I mean, your wife needs some lady friends who she can talk jewelry with, and you need something where you feel appreciated for your knowledge and efforts. A club, a volunteer activity; or a special project at work, maybe.

Stop the apologizing and don't email with your own wife. Put two cups on the table and say "you want to communicate, let's do it this way."

Good luck.

[hamster-bamster]

I so much agree with the suggestioon to stop apologizing. With your kind of make-up (always doing things for others) you should simply delete the words sorry and apologize from yourr active vocabulary, save for those rare occasions whern you spill milk on the table.

[Anika.]

You both seem to have some issues here. Financial and otherwise. But I will only speak to what I am getting from you mostly since you are the one here askig for help.

When I read your apologies to her I cannot help but feel they are not sincere but passive agressive with some somewhat hidden diggs which keep the argument going. When you aplogize and follow up with.."sorry that is not enough for you" really sort of seems to not only dismiss what she is saying but also places all the blame back to her..she expects way to much so it's her fault kinda thing. That is not really an apology that seems sincere. You also go on to tell her she abondoned you and destroyed your world and then follow up with how you have no one to blame but yourself. Two oposing things, but I think when most people are looking to see if someone is sincere they notice these things and look for consistancy. Anyone can say sorry, but really meaning it is another matter.

On topics like valentines day. Is it really so much about buying anything or about spending quality time with your partner that makes you both feel loved and special and has nothing to do with hallmark or consumerism. Also that is not a one way street, that is something that both partners can put effort into.

I would encourage you to try therapy together or at least try comunicating better. Her emails are full of swearing and anger and hurt, yours are full of hurt and anger as well, tho no swearing I didn't notice. Swearing might be just words but it also seems to get in the way of real communication sometimes.

Other thing I noticed is your wife say a whole lot, she is pretty descriptive and detailed but that does make understanding what she is talking about a little more easy. Less guess work. Your responses seem to ve a bit vauge, not really detailed, and not saying a whole lots about your feelings or the issues. So that might be something else to look at.

Maybe therapy together would help you both learn how to communicate more effectively and clearly so that you both might start working together instead of against each other.

I know this, both people want to be heard, validated and cared for with some effort from their partner, often times people are too resentful to honestly give what they want back. It just becones a tug of war until that can happen. Seems like you both need to be a little more compassionate and understanding of each other.

[moooo2u]

Originally Posted by LovelaceF

Hi mooo2u,
What I really and truly think about your post is that this is fixable if you want it to be, but it looks like you are going to have to make the first move. Your wife is practically begging for affection in those emails. She is also telling you how hurt she is by your negative opinions of her "bullying" and so forth.

When someone truly has remorse for hurting someone, they will humble themselves and ask for forgiveness. However, you don't want to "acquiesce", which tells me that you haven't let go of your sense of right in this argument.

Clearly, you are very angry. It also sounds as if you're new to asking for your needs to be met. So, your wife should cut you some slack and try to communicate with you more effectively.

You definitely need to have your needs met too. You deserve to live your own life and do things that fulfil you as well. However, instead of saying things in a negative way, such as you want her to "truly believe that she should be helping with finances somehow",

So, I think perhaps you should try to have an impersonal and civil conversation with your wife about her working, and try to keep in mind that she may have never planned to work once getting married. Changing such a life altering plan is not something to be taken lightly and will probably require lots of soul searching for her.

Hang in there!

Here's the thing... You say its fixable if I want to make it fixable. I guess that's a big question. Do I want to continue living in a situation where I feel worthless and don't really feel like I need to be living. When do my feelings become important? I guess they don't. I guess my role as a man is just to suck it up and ensure her needs are met and be happy through that.
Its actually quite difficult to a impersonal and civil conversation with my wife - she accuses me of being too rational and analytical - I can't quite think of the phrase she uses.
She's never really held a job for long and is really the type of personality that can't really work for someone - she's been working as a office manager at her brother's construction business where its really just the two of them managing jobs and subcontractors but she won't work with him anymore because he's unreasonable and of course I just spoke to him yesterday and he was complaining about how unreasonably she is. what a surprise they both think they are right and they are both so inflexible that they won't accept anyone not doing something their way.
My wife doesn't do soul searching to change her behavior - in a way she is a true role model for living your life the way you want to to live it and the only problem seems to be me. She does what she wants and if someone does not like it, too bad for them. Also, her attitude about finances is something completely opposite of mine - she can spend and spend and not worry about whether there's enough or where it comes from which in a way is quite admirable but not when you are the person who is the one who has to come up with the money.
Also, my wife says she cuts me slack but I feel that everything just gets added to a pile that's pulled out when the **** hits the fan so its not really passed over if its brought out at a later date against me.
I let a lot go and I really let it go - there are very few things I'll hold onto and I suppose that's because of my nature of always needing to please people and not really worrying about my needs.
I really do blame a lot of this on therapy trying to get me to understand that I am important. I thought that fixing myself and learning to be happy with myself and believing that I have something to offer of myself and not just to offer to make people happy would enable me to improve my relationships but so far that is not the case.

[moooo2u]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

What was so difficult about taking the wedding ring to a jeweler's to have it expanded to fit her fatter finger??

Interesting that you should mention that.
Yes, that is something that I should have done and I should have thought of it on my own. I am a thoughtless moron. I get too wrapped up in my troubles to think of anything romantic.
Technically it may not be possible because of the nature of the ring but I should have at least tried.
Now its too late (per her) because its come out as a result of our fighting and I've realized it too late.
I'm going to do it anyway if I can find it and its not too expensive.
I could also just buy her another one possibly - our anniversery is coming up.
I'm not sure it would be acceptable to her at this point and I'm not sure I want to continue living under her tyranny.
Also, the facts that she took off the fakes to begin with to symbolically leave me, I consider her problem and not mine and then to have her hold against me the fact that I did not notice her stop wearing her fake wedding rings and then decided that I should be rewarded by my good behavior by allowing me to put a fake ring back on her, I find all very manipulative and controlling behavior on her part.
yes, I suppose i could just suppress my needs and feelings once more for the sake of peace and just get another ring or try to resize the one we have for our upcoming anniversary.

[moooo2u]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

In terms of working - if she is used to running organizations as an elected president, she probably won't settle for anything less than a CEO of a mid-size company. Since with her resume she cannot qualify for that immediately, she is unemployable for practical purposes.

quite likely true - in another reply I mention something about this. her father owned his own business for 50 years at least and he was a great man but there was no way but his - his son and daughter (my wife) are much the same. Neither are really employable by anyone because they need to do things their own way. They recently tried working together and that has ended with both of them thinking the other is completely unreasonable - which they are - and neither will bend. My wife has not really held a long term job but has a BS in business and some masters work towards an education degree. She's worked in private schools and I think that's one thing she has enjoyed but it seems that as soon as there's a formal relationship where she is accountable and paid something snaps in her head. I'm not sure if its a confidence thing or not because as a PTA presidents and school board members, she is very confident but also drives things through and believes that others have to come around to her way of thinking. I've tried to build her confidence, told her we'd find a way for her to finish her masters (even though I can't find a way to finish my bachelors). She's also very crafty and makes beautiful jewelry and scarves and such but won't actively try to sell anything.

[moooo2u]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

regarding things for yourself - you absolutely need alone time to engage in activities that benefit nobody but you. whatever it is (masturbation, visiting museums or watching movies alone or spending time with your own friends or exercise in the park) is up to you but you must do it, for therapeutic purposes.

well, masturbation is still fun so I'm not completely dead yet...
part of the reason I went to therapy was because I am completely isolated. I work from home and although I have people working for me around the country that I talk to often (via chat usually) and I have to talk to customers - I manage product support for a software product that is difficult to use and buggy and often have to speak to unhappy customers. part of my success at this job - which I hate - is due to my innate need to avoid conflict and please people. However that is increasingly hard to do and its gotten to the point that I really am afraid to answer the phone and its causing problems in my work - I liken it to being constantly under fire on the front lines of a war - I'm shell shocked at this point.
I've always been quite and reserved and afraid of what people will think - I'm the kid that knew the answer but would never consider raising my hand. I would never speak to girls from fear of rejection. If I found a girl who was stupid enough to like me, I'd hang onto her. I had the same girlfriend of high school until senior year and then broke up and I realized that some other girls did actually like me but none of those went anywhere except for one the could have but I screwed that up when the old girlfriend popped back up. I went to college and then met my wife soon after through a mutual friend and even though she played ridiculous games that should have clued me into her issues, I stuck with her and eventually we married.
Anyway, I lost the direction I was taking this... oh, doing things for myself - so anyway therapy was to help me with that and all its really done is cause me to think more about trying to do something for myself and then not actually being able to do it which makes me feel even worse
right now, what do I do:
I have no friends - really, 0. Her brother was the closest I had to a friend but he doesn't really talk to me much as, I believe, he had to distance himself from people associated with his drinking problem when he joined AA. I've never been a big drinker but when he would come around because he could drink in my house but no his, we would drink. so I really have no one to talk to or do anything with.
I run/walk 60 minutes a day. Alone and timed to avoid as many people on the streets as possible and if I do encounter someone, I'll often try to avoid them.
I have motorcycles but I don't ride very much. I'm not afraid of them, I'm afraid to leave the house - I like riding them very much.
I manage to convince myself that what I want to do is stupid and pointless or too expensive and then I use that to stay home. I also seem to use the possibilty that someone might need me to do something as a reason to stay at home. Even when no one else is at home and I have some time to myself, if I do manage to get out, I'm constantly feeling that I need to get back home - just in case - in case of what, I don't know. Then I justify staying at home because of all the work I have to do around the house - how can I go out when there is so much that needs to be done at home - and I enjoy working on the house so its not that bad.
I have a classic corvette that doesn't get driven much - we were taking money out of an IRA we had (way too early) to pay our bills and to supplement my salary and I kept telling my wife it was a bad idea and it kept diapearing so I took a very small amount of it to buy this car because I figured I better get something out of my money before its all gone. I drive it to car shows if I somehow manage to get over convincing myself that going to car shows is stupid or whatever other roadblock I put up. Of course at the car shows, I just walk around and not talk to anyone - I might run into a husband of a friend of my wife's and even though we could possibly be friends, I don't know how and I don't think he really does either.
I once rode to a motorcycle show and quickly left - I felt out of place.
I like museums - there's a showing at a local museum that I told my wife would make a nice date - she thought that was dumb.
I'd like to learn to sail - its expensive and very hard to do alone.
I'd like to fly a helicopter but that's REALLY expensive.
I'd like to start hiking and I may actually do that but have to manage to leave the house to do it. I've considered hooking up with a hiking group but I can't get past my fear to do that.
I'd like to go out on fishing boats - can't seem to manage to do that either.
I'd like to paint but I can't find the time to do that - I work a lot and then when I'm not working at work, I'm working around the house.
I'd like to learn to play the bass - I have one I bought for my son - but then I think its silly for me to play the bass. Its likely that I will actually try this.
I'd like to someday go to Burning Man because to me that represents souls that are truly free to be who they want to be rather than me who is afraid to express anything.

[moooo2u]

Originally Posted by avlady

I read your whole story and letters, really don't know what to say, but she sounds pretty desperate for some kind of love, maybe she wishes you were more romantic, or just can't handle the fact that marriages do change people and we grow with each other and you are going to different phase of your marriage. Maybe things can work out maybe with therapy, at this time it seems like a T could help.

As I am not an expressive person, I feel that my love is shown in everything that I do and in my entire existence for her. she needs touchy feely constant feedback love. she believes that sex is the ultimate expression of love while I believe its fun but only a superficial expression. If all you have is sex and you get old and the sex stops then what else are you left with? I live for her and everything I do is for her. That's part of the problem I suppose. I believe that there is much more to a marriage than sex and touchy feely love - its a partnership and each partner has to have the other's back and support them. I feel that my wife does not have my back and its only happy when I'm there for her. I feel that she does not care about my feelings or my problems except to the extent that they impact her.
I tried to tell her this both in therapy and out and its always the same - she is hurt by my feelings and dose not acknowledge that my feelings are valid and only that my feelings hurt her.
I don't want to hurt her therefore my feelings are not important and are obviously incorrect because they cause her pain.

[moooo2u]

Originally Posted by s4ndm4n2006

I agree that she says she wants an emotional connection with him but at the same time if you look at his responses, you'd see a man that is quite possibly with a more assertive and demanding -- even possibly controlling woman. He seems like a guy that may be a submissive personality and is with someone very critical and demanding. She minimizes the fact that he feels like he apologizes a lot and I believe him to an extent considering his reply to her is nothing but a huge apologetic reply. I can't see that being a single shot thing.

I dealt with this with my ex. She was demanding and controlling and funny thing is she accused me of much of the same things. Funny thing too is that now that she's in a life where she has to actually fend for herself now, she's realizing all that i did for her. Although she was the dominating one, I was the one that kept her afloat.

I may be wrong, I know this but that's what I see from this post.

OK, so maybe the long running apology was a bit over the top. I'm fairly certain I apologized repeatedly but I don't have a recorder in my head like my wife apparently does. She says something with such conviction that her recollection of a situation is the only one that matters.
I see in myself a person who is afraid of life, afraid of people, afraid of being but who desperately wants something different. I'm tired of trying to be perfect and to be all things to all people but maybe that's just what I need to be and to be happy with that.
I've said that I went into therapy to "fix myself" as my wife demanded as she accused me of mental torture during a blowup.
The mental torture is because I do not meet her needs - I am not romantic and I do not express my love in a way she understands or appreciates.
What drove us to that point pre-therapy - I suppose that blowup was caused by me being distant and unromantic, not taking her to the movies and dinners and dates.
I face considerable pressure as the sole provider and have expressed to her that marriage is a partnership and she considers that as not what a marriage is but as what a business arrangement is.
I suppose the pressure I feel to pay bills, pay them on time, fix things in the house that need fixing and to work at my job wears me down. I feel that everyone relies on me to make things happen. There is certainly some resentment there when I feel that she takes takes takes and I've expressed to her the need for her to be my partner and what I get in return is her telling me that a roommate or a coworker can be a partner but that's not what a marriage is. There is resentment there because she does not understand or even try to appreciate my point of view. I can't admit to there being resentment because that would be admitting my feelings which ultimately hurt her and then the focus is on why my feelings hurt her, that she's hurt, and why do I have these feelings that would hurt her - I must not love her.
The reason that people rely on me to make things happen is because I happen to be able to come though for people.

[moooo2u]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

Reread more attentively... Yeah, you should notice when your wife dyes her hair red. It should not be difficult unless you are completely unaware of your immediate environment. She did deserve to be noticed.

That is very true and no one denies that. You are assuming that her statement is fact. If fact it is not but she believes it to be and believes that I did not notice and is hurt by that - her perception is her reality as she has often said to me.
The problem becomes when he perception and how she feels is her reality and my duty to fix it but my perception and my feelings are not reality and my duty to fix that.
I understand that a person is entitled to their feelings but when those feelings are based on a twisted perception of events or the taking out of proportion the events that occurred, who's responsibility is it to fix?
I believe I try. She believes I do not try.
Also, I'm a bit unobservant and clueless - always have been. Its been almost 30 years we've been together (23 married) - does she not know ME? When do I get accepted for being ME rather than being what people want me to be?

[moooo2u]

Originally Posted by IceCreamKid

Only because you have asked for help will I comment. This is what I gather from what you have posted: You are in a power struggle with your wife. Neither of you values what the other person values. Both of you harbor grudges, secret wounds, and a strong desire to be "in the right."

I've also observed over the years a lot of couples who come together because each lacks what the other has: the strong silent man, the happy-go-lucky bubbly woman. Only problem is a few years into the relationship it becomes "he won't talk to me" and "She won't contribute to the finances... nor shut up, ever!"

I think therapy is a good idea for you. If your wife really wants her needs met, therapy for her would be a good idea too. In the short term if I were you I would come right out and tell her that you are feeling the stress of financially keeping the family afloat and while you appreciate all of your wife's skills re: the school activities, she could have been doing similar work all these years and getting paid for it and you would like for her to get a J-O-B.

Valentine's day has been around longer than Hallmark. I don't believe it when people carp about things "being made up" holidays when what they really are objecting to is being in what they perceive to be the suitor's (and inferior) position with hat and box of candy in hand. I have always enjoyed buying things, making things, cooking things, and saying things to let my friends, loved ones, co-workers, random strangers on the street, know that they are noticed, liked, loved, appreciated. I have never regretted expending this effort and it has actually cost (monetarily) very little. The good feelings I have gotten back have been far more.

If your wife hasn't worked for pay, I am not surprised she doesn't regard your bringing home a paycheck as more important than a valentine. She's been living in her bauble filled world all these years; so why are you rocking her bejeweled boat?

She expected you to feel warm and fuzzy about yet another piece of jewelry on her wedding ring finger, when most men don't give a rat's left hindquarter about jewelry.

Some of what you are hurt "at" each other about could be solved by both of you having other emotional outlets -- and by that I mean, your wife needs some lady friends who she can talk jewelry with, and you need something where you feel appreciated for your knowledge and efforts. A club, a volunteer activity; or a special project at work, maybe.

Stop the apologizing and don't email with your own wife. Put two cups on the table and say "you want to communicate, let's do it this way."

Good luck.

A power struggle - possibly but only because I want to take some power back after I've given it all away over the years.

To being opposites, yes, absolutely but I'd never find anyone like me because neither of two people like me would ever even be able to find each other and then wouldn't have the nerve to talk to the other - it a catch-22.

I've decided to change my approach to Valentines Day and if I don't like the commercialization of it, I don't need to be part of that but I can honor the spirit of the day and find a way to celebrate it that is acceptable to me and that will communicate to my wife, my love and appreciation for her. I'm not quite sure yet what they entails but I'm sure I can come up with something.

As for emotional outlets, I'm actually the one who needs that - see my other posts about isolation and not being able to leave the house. My wife enjoys a good social life with close friends, a full day of mah-jong each week with friends and one or two nights of mah-jong or canasta with friends, she has her volunteer activities, she will go out with friends for birthday dinners in her group. I do not resent her doing these things for the most part - but when she has a day of playing mah-jong and I've had a day working at a job that I absolutely hate and she complains about how busy her day was and how tired she is, I have a bit of a problem with that. I certainly don't resent her for doing these things when my mental issues prevent me from doing them - I look to her as somewhat of a model - I wish I could be like that and am happy that she can be but it does make me sad that I cannot.

As for the email, that wasn't my idea. That came after I went to her once again to try to talk and work this out. I've gone to her a couple of times - the conversation consists of my trying to move things forward - her belittling the concept that I want to move things forward as being mechanical and businesslike and then her continuing to beat me over the head with everything I've done wrong. I see no way forward when she just beats and beats and beats and beats and can't offer me a way out.

The only thing I can do is therapy and maybe I just need a new therapist - I should have found another when the last one has the medical issues that stopped our sessions. Its been almost two months with no sessions but she is supposed to be back soon.

[moooo2u]

overall what I'm sensing here is that we should be in therapy (we were for at least 6 months together and me another 6 months prior to that - and at least I will be again) and that we need to communicate better and that I need to be more attentive and stop worrying about what I need because my needs only cause a problem for me but her needs cause a problem for her, our relationship, and our family - thus rendering her needs as the valid needs to be addressed. That's fine.
What I've decided to do is continue therapy at least for me and hopefully for the two us. I'm going to either get her a new ring or her actual ring resized. We will need to find ways to date again that work for both of us - I get a bit tired of going out to dinner and have a tough time sitting through most movies - but I will sacrifice because those are the important things to do. I will continue to try to do things for myself but know that I'll most likely just end up staying at home unless my therapy can help me with that. I say to myself that I just need to stop whining and do something - only I can fix my problem - and yet here I sit.
I suppose in the end, the unexamined life is best left unexamined. Eventually I will die and I will have fulfilled my duty. I'm tired. I've had enough. I really have. This struggle for individualism and to be something for myself is selfish and tiring and I need to stop railing against my wife. The rebellious part of me knows that this is not the proper path but it is the path that leads to peace and the rebellious part of me must die to ensure happiness. I've gone to far down the path to do anything else and I need to appreciate what I have and who I am and stop being unhappy about who I am. Why do I have to be unhappy with who I am - it may not be what part of me was hoping to be but it is who I am. Its a little sad to let the dream go but dreams are for those who have not set their paths yet. Stop thinking of it in terms of all the things I could have been and start thinking in terms of all the things that I am and even if parts of me considers some of what I am to be defective - that's fine, its still who I am and rather than being unhappy with who I am, I need to just accept and appreciate it. Its very hard to let go of wanting to be 'better' but I need to stop thinking of it as 'better' - I am what I am. Very hard indeed.

[hamster-bamster]

Look, even site reliability engineers who are on call for siteup needs get to enjoy life!! How? They wear pagers. If something happens, they get paged and go to their computers to work. You CAN leave house, just take your cell with you. If someone has a need for you that simply cannot wait, they will call.

Plus, site reliability engineers work shifts, while you seem to be on call permanently.

[hamster-bamster]

Maybe hiking together if movies are boring?

[moooo2u]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

Look, even site reliability engineers who are on call for siteup needs get to enjoy life!! How? They wear pagers. If something happens, they get paged and go to their computers to work. You CAN leave house, just take your cell with you. If someone has a need for you that simply cannot wait, they will call.

Plus, site reliability engineers work shifts, while you seem to be on call permanently.

one of the disadvantages of working from home - I have no set hours which is both good and bad - if something needs to be done during the day, I can do it, have time to be here when the kids get home,etc but also, I work from the time I wake up until dinner and then after dinner until sleep. I think I've been getting better about it simply because I can't handle it anymore - part of my going into therapy was simply because I could not pick up the phone for an escalation call anymore. my entire team has the same stresses but they actually work on issues - I just route things and call angry customers who needs attention. maybe someday we'll actually be staffed appropriately or the software will suddenly be easy to implement - ha.

[hamster-bamster]

Both scenarios seem unlikely...