[High Treason]

I am completely clueless on how to play the dating game. It's just not a skill I ever developed in 35 years of life. now I find myself going on dates and I don't really know what to do or what to expect.

For context, basically my previous relationships with women have gone something like this:

Scenario 1:
1. Go to bar
2. Get drunk enough to hit on women
3. Find woman who is also drunk
4. Sex

-OR-

Scenario 2:
1. Meet woman
2. Ask her out to bar
3. Both get drunk
4. Sex

However, I recently met a woman and have gone on two actual normal dates with her. I mean I guess they are normal dates. I don't know what a normal date is. But basically this was the format for the two dates we have had so far:

Date 1:
1. Go to restaurant
2. Get to know each other and interesting conversation
3. Go to bar after restaurant
4. Not get drunk
5. More interesting conversation and laughing and fun
6. No sex

Date 2:
1. Go play pool together
2. Go to same restaurant as before
3. More interesting conversation
4. Go to different bar than first date
5. Not get drunk
6. Even more interesting and engaging conversation
7. No sex

Basically, she is really fun and intelligent. I really like spending time with her. However, I am terrible at "dating." There doesn't seem to be any sexual tension, though. But also, I am terrible at flirting. I haven't the slightest clue how to do it. If the girl isn't drunk enough to go straight for groping, I really have no idea how to proceed. I can't say that I find her terribly attractive physically, but she's not a bad looking girl, and I really enjoy being with her.

For a third date, I'd kind of like to put us in a situation where something more... romantic might happen just to see if it will. But I don't really know what that situation is and probably won't know how to initiate anything if i were in it.

Basically, I am just clueless on dating and have no idea if these two dates would be considered normal for a lot of people, overly friend-like and not romantic enough, I just don't know.

The first date, I asked her out. Then after that, I didn't contact her for over two weeks even though I had fun. I just didn't know what to ask her to go do or anything and just put it off and then by the time two weeks had passed, I kind of figured she probably wrote me off by that point and had no intention of contacting her again. But then she contacted me to see if I wanted to go out and play pool, so then that was our second date. That was like 4 days ago. I realize the ball is definitely in my court now and I should contact her soon to go out again, but not sure what to do.

Basically, any advice would be helpful because I'm 100% clueless on dating.

Ask her over to your place. Have a movie or if you are good at convo just some music going , cook or order in, drop subtle flirts. Find out where her head is at.

[High Treason]

Thanks for the response, Lux.

Two things.

I don't know how to do a subtle flirt. Can you give some examples?

Also, my place is not going to work because roommate in a studio apartment.

[manwithnofriends]

I think you're already getting the hang of it. I'm not and will never be.

[luvinglife2012]

You're doing fine sweety! Lux is right!

[healingme4me]

Originally Posted by High Treason

Date 1:
1. Go to restaurant
2. Get to know each other and interesting conversation
3. Go to bar after restaurant
4. Not get drunk
5. More interesting conversation and laughing and fun
6. No sex

Date 2:
1. Go play pool together
2. Go to same restaurant as before
3. More interesting conversation
4. Go to different bar than first date
5. Not get drunk
6. Even more interesting and engaging conversation
7. No sex

There doesn't seem to be any sexual tension, though. But also, I can't say that I find her terribly attractive physically, but she's not a bad looking girl, and I really enjoy being with her.

Basically, I am just clueless on dating and have no idea if these two dates would be considered normal for a lot of people, overly friend-like and not romantic enough, I just don't know.

The first date, I asked her out. Then after that, I didn't contact her for over two weeks even though I had fun. I just didn't know what to ask her to go do or anything and just put it off and then by the time two weeks had passed, I kind of figured she probably wrote me off by that point and had no intention of contacting her again. But then she contacted me to see if I wanted to go out and play pool, so then that was our second date. That was like 4 days ago. I realize the ball is definitely in my court now and I should contact her soon to go out again, but not sure what to do.

Basically, any advice would be helpful because I'm 100% clueless on dating.

To me, this doesn't sound like you don't know what to do, as far as where to go, per se.

To me, this sounds like you just don't know what to do, about this woman, in particular.

Those dates sound like nice times. It's just 1) you didn't contact her, after the first date(red flag) and 2) She contacted you for a second date(red flag).

You mention there is no sexual tension!! For date #3, is this just a matter of a 'lonely heart'? Is this, mainly, about what lies beneath the belt?!

Honestly, you didn't contact her, after the first date!!! You didn't initiate, the second date.

I'd say, before getting involved, really think this through!! Before, getting intimately involved with someone you lack chemistry with, and find yourself in a bind!!

It could turn sour....

[High Treason]

I can see how it's a red flag that I didn't contact her after the first date. But in all fairness, it wasn't because of her. I barely go out an meet anyone any more. I find excuses and just stay at home all the time lately. I really hate that about myself these days, but that's how it's been. I don't try to to meet up with anyone, not just her. But yes, I should have probably contacted her.

I don't see how it's a red flag that she contacted me for the second date. If anything, that means she had a good time on the first date. I mean she's not going to contact me to go out again unless she liked me at least in some way. I consider that to be a good sign.

As far as whether it's about "what lies beneath the belt," not entirely but... I'm not exactly out there looking for a squash partner.

Anyway, I've been on two dates. It's not getting serious and I'm not really looking for anything serious. We're not even from the same country. Some day she'll go back to New Zealand and/or I'll go back to America. The latter may happen within the next year. I guess if things start to get serious, I can start thinking about what will happen if they do. That's not even a consideration at this point, though. i can't even figure out what to do for a third date! :-)

[healingme4me]

How about having a quiet, at home dinner, that you can both cook together?

((My opinion, on the women contacting men, that comes from life lessons on how that turns out, I hold older fashioned ideals, and frankly, though I support women being strong individuals, there's something that subconsciously goes on....involves the ego))

I don't feel any of us, that have been or are in the dating pool, are looking for a squash partner...I'm not that old fashioned...

Back to the women pursing (as an add), your mention about not putting forth efforts, seems symptomatic of the current dating scene. These days many women seem to be doing all the work. And um, I don't know, I could have a sociological discussion about this here. It breeds a certain lackadaisical view on dating, in my opinion. I am sure, you aren't the only man out there, that doesn't actively pursue. To me, for me, that's been an issue of mine, in the dating world.

[healingme4me]

Here's an article on some third date ideas.

Dating Advice: 5 Ways to Clinch the Third Date - Men's Fitness

Third Date Ideas - 3rd Date Ideas | Hot Date Ideas (hey, wow, my suggestion on the making dinner together, is in here )

Either way, hope you have fun!!

[High Treason]

Going to my house is out of the question for the time being for reasons mentioned previously.

As far as women asking men out... well I think it's about time women started taking some responsibility. For too long it has been the case that men are expected to do all the work while women just sit back and judge us. What a load of crap that system is. She scores major points in my book for contacting me. It shows she isn't someone who sits passively by and waits for other people. I want to be with someone I can respect.

It's interesting that the first item in that first list is the amusement park. I've actually already invited her to the amusement park (during the last date) and she said that sounds like fun. I don't expect that to be the third date, though. I think we should probably see other again before then. Plus, the amusement park is a bit far away and riding a subway for a couple hours is not really an impressive end to an evening, so I would prefer to stay around that area overnight when we go down. The park closes around ten and it would be nice to have a few drinks afterward instead of just a boring public transportation ride. At this point, sleeping arrangements for an overnight stay would be a bit awkward...

[healingme4me]

I am glad, that for you, her stepping up and contacting you, scores points for her. It was, the second date, after all.

I personally, find that men pursuing has been not the norm, but, I still appreciate a man, that can step up to the plate and say, hey! I like you, I want to get to know you, etc. To me, that scores points in his favor.

Can't wait to hear out it turns out, well, not the details wise, the choice in dating venue!! Hope all goes well...

Originally Posted by High Treason

Going to my house is out of the question for the time being for reasons mentioned previously.

As far as women asking men out... well I think it's about time women started taking some responsibility. For too long it has been the case that men are expected to do all the work while women just sit back and judge us. What a load of crap that system is. She scores major points in my book for contacting me. It shows she isn't someone who sits passively by and waits for other people. I want to be with someone I can respect.

It's interesting that the first item in that first list is the amusement park. I've actually already invited her to the amusement park (during the last date) and she said that sounds like fun. I don't expect that to be the third date, though. I think we should probably see other again before then. Plus, the amusement park is a bit far away and riding a subway for a couple hours is not really an impressive end to an evening, so I would prefer to stay around that area overnight when we go down. The park closes around ten and it would be nice to have a few drinks afterward instead of just a boring public transportation ride. At this point, sleeping arrangements for an overnight stay would be a bit awkward...

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by High Treason

Scenario 1:
1. Go to bar
2. Get drunk enough to hit on women
3. Find woman who is also drunk
4. Sex

-OR-

Scenario 2:
1. Meet woman
2. Ask her out to bar
3. Both get drunk
4. Sex

However, I recently met a woman and have gone on two actual normal dates with her. I mean I guess they are normal dates. I don't know what a normal date is. But basically this was the format for the two dates we have had so far:

Date 1:
1. Go to restaurant
2. Get to know each other and interesting conversation
3. Go to bar after restaurant
4. Not get drunk
5. More interesting conversation and laughing and fun
6. No sex

Date 2:
1. Go play pool together
2. Go to same restaurant as before
3. More interesting conversation
4. Go to different bar than first date
5. Not get drunk
6. Even more interesting and engaging conversation
7. No sex

I can't say that I find her terribly attractive physically, but she's not a bad looking girl, and I really enjoy being with her.

Just to note that alcohol consumption often changes the threshold of attractiveness. Therefore, it could be the case that the current girl is, in actuality, as attractive in your perception as the previous cases were, but you are comparing apple and oranges, since you were looking at her through sober lenses.

[High Treason]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

Just to note that alcohol consumption often changes the threshold of attractiveness. Therefore, it could be the case that the current girl is, in actuality, as attractive in your perception as the previous cases were, but you are comparing apple and oranges, since you were looking at her through sober lenses.

Well, it's also kind of that I'm not that attracted to white girls. Hmm... I sound kind of racist, but I'm white! I just prefer Asian and Latina girls as far as appearance goes. But in any case, she's not ugly or anything, and appearance is not a huge hang-up for me, so it's not really a big deal.

[High Treason]

Third date: Trick Eye Museum

Trick eye museum was interesting. basically a museum of optical illusions. Then we went to eat at a meat buffet, and then a couple bars. Still interesting conversation, I guess. Today, I just feel kind of bored with the whole thing. Still not a hint of "attraction" or sexual tension or anything. She interesting and all, but I just don't know. On the one hand, I have a tendency to try to make things work that maybe I should just give up on. I wonder if this is one of those times. For her part she still seems interested in meeting again in the future. She's still an interesting and cool person, but it just doesn't feel like it's going anywhere. Maybe it's just that I really have never been a fan of dating in the first place, so I guess I don't know what would be a good date vs a bad date unless it was really obvious... we both hate each other: bad date, we end up in bed together: good date... any more subtle than that and I just don't know.

I kind of feel like giving up on it at this point. Not even her in particular but just dating completely.

Hey...

What you're doing here is old fashioned dating - or courting. So you've had three enjoyable dates and yet you're measuring the success on it on not ending up having sex? What are your thoughts on slowing down? Do you object to having fun, hanging out with 'an interesting and cool person' as you put it simply because you're not having sex? I think it may be good to change your way of thinking with this lady - she obviously wants to get to know you better before she sleeps with you and to me that's not a bad thing.

If you are bored tho because she isn't the person for you then give up. But if you're bored because she hasn't slept with you in just three dates then perhaps you need to change your expectations and thinking patterns. Not everybody has sex on their first, second, third date.....

[High Treason]

Originally Posted by riotgrrrl

Hey...

What you're doing here is old fashioned dating - or courting. So you've had three enjoyable dates and yet you're measuring the success on it on not ending up having sex? What are your thoughts on slowing down? Do you object to having fun, hanging out with 'an interesting and cool person' as you put it simply because you're not having sex? I think it may be good to change your way of thinking with this lady - she obviously wants to get to know you better before she sleeps with you and to me that's not a bad thing.

If you are bored tho because she isn't the person for you then give up. But if you're bored because she hasn't slept with you in just three dates then perhaps you need to change your expectations and thinking patterns. Not everybody has sex on their first, second, third date.....

It's not just we haven't had sex. It's that things haven't even started to move that direction. There's no physical contact or even flirting or anything. I don't mind not having sex right away. The last girl I dated didn't have sex with me for like a whole month after I met her! But things were moving a little further that direction each time we met. It didn't feel static.

But as I've said, I really don't know what to expect or what people consider normal, so....

Ok, apologies - I was going on your last post about what equals a good date, and this post too:

Originally Posted by High Treason

For context, basically my previous relationships with women have gone something like this:

Scenario 1:
1. Go to bar
2. Get drunk enough to hit on women
3. Find woman who is also drunk
4. Sex

-OR-

Scenario 2:
1. Meet woman
2. Ask her out to bar
3. Both get drunk
4. Sex

However, I recently met a woman and have gone on two actual normal dates with her. I mean I guess they are normal dates. I don't know what a normal date is.

It made me think that your expectations are out of whack with this lady going on your previous experiences. And you made me smile when you said you had to wait a whole month!! Grins. A month is nothing to some people. You wonder what normal is - now is there a normal? Everyone is different and has different thoughts on this issue. I guess communication is a good start to find out where they are at.

If you want to get more romantic towards her, perhaps make the initiative? I don't mean expect sex or force her to be more personal, but perhaps make things more romantic? Ask her for a picnic or something, in a nice quiet spot and perhaps you can get a little bit more cuddly. At least you'd get to know one way or another if she's into you in that way. As she has initiated pretty much all the dates, maybe taking control of the next one by getting things sorted out may be nice for her too! If you don't take the initiative sometimes you're giving off the vibe of perhaps you're not that interested... so she could be very wary of taking that next step, and who can blame her?

You say that there has been nothing in that way, but perhaps she is thinking the exact same thing - ie "when IS he going to kiss me"?! One of you has to make the first move.. I remember being asked on a date by a man if he could kiss me, how cute! I loved that he did that and yep, I sure did kiss him.

You say about flirting - smile a lot, listen to her in an interested way, compliment her.... and you'll do grand.

[healingme4me]

Originally Posted by High Treason

Third date: Trick Eye Museum

Trick eye museum was interesting. basically a museum of optical illusions. Then we went to eat at a meat buffet, and then a couple bars. Still interesting conversation, I guess. Today, I just feel kind of bored with the whole thing. Still not a hint of "attraction" or sexual tension or anything. She interesting and all, but I just don't know. On the one hand, I have a tendency to try to make things work that maybe I should just give up on. I wonder if this is one of those times. For her part she still seems interested in meeting again in the future. She's still an interesting and cool person, but it just doesn't feel like it's going anywhere. Maybe it's just that I really have never been a fan of dating in the first place, so I guess I don't know what would be a good date vs a bad date unless it was really obvious... we both hate each other: bad date, we end up in bed together: good date... any more subtle than that and I just don't know.

I kind of feel like giving up on it at this point. Not even her in particular but just dating completely.

There certainly needs to be some type of chemical attraction, to make dating interesting and less boring.
That, actually, sounds like a very cool date. To me, it sounds like you 'know how' to date. She just doesn't sound like the type of woman, you are attracted to.
How can you place yourself in a position to meet Asian and Latina women?! Now, how about signing up for some salsa lessons?! Place yourself in a position to meet women that interest you.
Just because this one seemed a little blasé, doesn't mean it's necessary to completely stop trying to date.
I have no clue how to meet Asian women, but I do know, if you want to swoon a Latina((I've got lots of Latina friends), then knowing how to Salsa, is a MUST!!!

[hamster-bamster]

I think that High Treason is in Korea, no? Asian girls should be no problem to meet.

[High Treason]

Yes, I am in Korea. Meeting Asian women who speak English well enough to have a conversation is another story, though.

[healingme4me]

Didn't know that. But, I am serious about learning to salsa, as far as a means to a Latina's heart...

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by High Treason

Yes, I am in Korea. Meeting Asian women who speak English well enough to have a conversation is another story, though.

oh... you have never learned the language of the country you live in?..

[High Treason]

Originally Posted by hamster-bamster

oh... you have never learned the language of the country you live in?..

I know the language well enough to have basic conversations and whatnot, sure. Not enough to have deep, meaningful, or intellectual conversations.

From numerous times meeting women who I could only have basic conversations with, I find it's easier in some ways. Running out of things we are able to talk about seems to hasten the onset of physical things... but maybe that's not all I'm looking for at the moment.

[hamster-bamster]

Originally Posted by High Treason

I know the language well enough to have basic conversations and whatnot, sure. Not enough to have deep, meaningful, or intellectual conversations.

From numerous times meeting women who I could only have basic conversations with, I find it's easier in some ways. Running out of things we are able to talk about seems to hasten the onset of physical things... but maybe that's not all I'm looking for at the moment.

I think that there is also some mystique associated with not knowing the language well. That might provide an additional draw for you. With a white English-speaking woman, you feel more as an equal conversation partner. there is less mystique.

just conjecturing... by the way I am also not racist, but I cannot make myself be attracted to Asian or Latino men. I am working on becoming attracted to East Indian men, though, with a decent success.

I recently met a female through some acquaintances, and had intercourse with her early on.

This is my only relationship experience, but I still think I can tell you that this is not a good move, as our relationship went on to be mostly about intercourse. It was also very physical in nature even outside the bedroom.

I think your new approach to dating will reap rewards and you will have a real relationship soon.